Is it Legal - Jones Act or PVSA Question

[rafinmd]

Not quite. It would have to be r/t Vancouver, not a one-way to any AK port or anything ending in Seattle.

 

I think it could as long as the other ship did not leave Vancouver the day the Westerdam arrived.

 

Roy

[fleckle]

I think it could as long as the other ship did not leave Vancouver the day the Westerdam arrived.

 

Roy

Doesn't matter, as long as it is a different ship.

 

You can even walk across the dock at Canada Place from one ship to the other (if both ships are docked there).

[richwmn]

The way I understand it is that a "foreign flagged vessel" can not transport a passenger between two US ports. This implies that you can change ships, even on the same cruise line. However, in an abundance of caution, any line may prohibit the voyage.

I believe I read somewhere that the fine is actually assessed to the Captain of the ship, and it accrues like points on a drivers license. If a particular Captain has this happen too often, he can be banned from operating in US waters.

 

Rich

[catl331]

No, in fact a one-way from Vancouver to Whittier or Seward on another ship would be fine.

 

Been there, done that, and so have lots of others :)

If you originally embarked your cruise to Vancouver in a US city, and did not visit a distant foreign port, and did not spend at least one night in Vancouver, then you and "lots of others" got away with breaking the law, even if it was on a different cruise line.

 

See http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=28695200&postcount=70

[RuthC]

The way I understand it is that a "foreign flagged vessel" can not transport a passenger between two US ports.

You need to add the phrase "without stopping at a ("distant" or "near", depending on starting/ending ports) foreign port" for this to be correct.

[richwmn]

You need to add the phrase "without stopping at a ("distant" or "near", depending on starting/ending ports) foreign port" for this to be correct.

Ruth -- you are correct -- I failed to mention the "distant" port part, and it would have to be a distant port because I specifically mentioned from one US port to another US port.

What I was trying to get across was that the law mentions "vessel", not cruise line or air line, and that the infraction could cause the Captain to be banned from US waters

 

Rich

[Tricia724]

Doesn't matter, as long as it is a different ship.

 

You can even walk across the dock at Canada Place from one ship to the other (if both ships are docked there).

 

You have a better chance of getting away with it on a ship of a different cruise line. I don't recommend that you try another HAL ship, though.

 

We tried to do something similar, although in reverse and on different ships.....depart from Seward to Vancouver on Statendam, disembark, board Rotterdam and sail to San Diego. We thought they were two different cruises, two different ships, sailing from a foreign port, no problem.

 

Thanks to RuthC....who very kindly pointed out the error of our ways.....we learned that we would indeed be in violation of the PVSA. We were already booked on both trips because we booked them several months apart, and even our travel agent didn't think it was a problem. So we called HAL, and they said absolutely no way! They are the carrier, Vancouver is a "near" foreign port, and it is indeed a violation, even on different ships. Our second booking was canceled immediately and our deposit returned. We were several months out and were able to make other plans, which is a lot better than being denied boarding.

 

With the high volume of cruise ship passengers, I"m sure that a lot of people do get away with violating the Act, some unknowingly and others who just try to work their way around it. It wasn't worth it to us.

[DAllenTCY]

There would have to be 24 hours between arriving in Vancouver and departing. You can't just walk from one ship to another on the same day.

David

[scapel]

The Jones-Shafroth Act (the Jones Act as it is known) was signed into law on March 2, 1917, by President Woodrow Wilson. Even today, close to 90 years later, many provisions of the Act are very pertinent especially those dealing with Seamen's health, accident and disability benefits. So what is the "Jones Act" and how does it influence us as resellers of cruises?

 

The Jones Act is the everyday name for Section 27 of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (46 U.S.C. 883; 19 CFR 4.80 and 4.80b). Its intent is very simple, to promote a healthy U.S-Flag fleet and protect that fleet from unfair foreign competition, the Jones Act requires that cargo moving between U.S. ports be carried in a vessel that was built in the United States and is owned (at least 75 percent) by American citizens or corporations. Since the Jones Act vessels are registered in the United States, our general labor and immigration laws require that crewmembers be American citizens or legal aliens. (In fact most maritime nations have an equivalent to the Jones Act - (50 countries)

To reduce the terminology to something the layman can understand - this is termed "cabotage" and applies not only to shipping but to airlines and other forms of international transportation. The statute covering cabotage as it applies to passengers is known as the Passenger Services Act (PSA) and became law in 1886.

While the PSA prevents foreign cruise ships from carrying passengers directly from Alaska and the West Coast to Hawaii and from competing for Hawaiian inter-island cruise traffic, a considerable number of foreign cruise ships do visit Hawaii in any given year. American passengers on foreign cruise ships to Hawaii must board in another country—typically, Vancouver, Canada or Ensenada, Mexico. These ships cannot pick up a passenger in one U.S. port and drop off the passenger in another U.S. port. However, after arriving from Canada or Mexico, they may tour the islands and drop off passengers in Hawaii. They may then pick up new passengers, tour the islands, and return to Canada or Mexico. As a consequence, these "foreign" cruise ships made approximately over 300 calls in Hawaii ports during 2002.

 

 

 

Merchant Marine Act of 1920, commonly referred to as the Jones Act - similar law applied to cargo transportation

 

The Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (sometimes abbreviated to PVSA, Passenger Services Act, or PSA) is a piece of United States legislation which came into force in 1886 relating to cabotage. Essentially, it says:

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.

 

 

Any vessel subject to the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 counts as a US vessel. Under the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (46 USC §289), foreign-flagged vessels cannot transport passengers directly between U.S. ports. The handful of U.S.-flagged cruise ships in operation are registered in the U.S. to permit cruises between the Hawaiian Islands, or from the continental U.S. to Hawaii.

The Passenger Services Act, however, does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port or foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a US port and disembark in a second US port, the vessel must visit a distant foreign port outside of North America (Bermuda counts as part of North America).

My comment:Here the PSA is saying North America and not just the United States. Mexico and Canada are in North America. Some discrepancy here.

Exceptions

Some exceptions have been made to the requirement of the Passenger Services Act. For example, Canadian vessels may transport passengers betweenRochester, New York and Alexandria Bay, New York (46 USC §289a) and between ports in southern Alaska (46 USC §289b), until such time as a U.S. carrier enters the market.

As of October 30, 2003, foreign vessels are also allowed to transport passengers (but not cargo) between the US mainland and Puerto Rico (46 USC §289c). However, this exemption will disappear if US-flagged ships resume passenger operations of this type

Foreign flag vessels are restricted from a practice known as coastwise trade. Coastwise trade entails picking up cargo or passengers from one point in the United States and discharging them at another point in the U.S. For example, an Argentinean-flagged cruise ship picks up passengers in Miami then sails to various ports of call, including Bermuda, Charleston, South Carolina, and Annapolis, Maryland before returning to Miami. While passengers may leave the vessel to see the U.S. ports, they must return to the ship before it sails. If the ship sails before everyone is on board, that would be a violation of the law forbidding coastwise trade because they would have transported a passenger between two different U.S. ports. There is a penalty of $300 for each passenger illegally transported. Because Bermuda is not a U.S. port, passengers could disembark there without causing the cruise line to incur a penalty.

 

The term Jones Act may refer to one of several federal laws in the United States:

 The Jones Act (Philippines) was a 1916 statute sponsored by Representative William Atkinson Jones that provided the Philippine Islands a "more autonomous government" to prepare the territory for independence.

 The Jones-Shafroth Act or Jones Act (Puerto Rico) was a 1917 statute sponsored by Representative William Atkinson Jones, which concerned the government of Puerto Rico and conferred U.S. citizenship on Puerto Ricans.

 The Merchant Marine Act of 1920 is a 1920 statute sponsored by Senator Wesley L. Jones of Washington, governing the workers compensation rights of sailors and the use of foreign vessels in domestic trade.

 The Increased Penalties Act of 1929, known as the Jones-Stalker Act or the Jones Act of 1929, increased penalties for the violation of Prohibition.

The Maritime Administration (MARAD) is the Federal agency that provides assistance to the shipping public in locating U.S.-flag vessels for the carriage of both domestic and international cargo. To encourage a strong U.S. Merchant Marine for both national defense and economic security, the Jones Act (46 U.S.C. § 55101) requires that merchandise being transported by water between U.S. points must travel in U.S.-built and U.S.-citizen owned vessels that are registered in the United States.

[benchmarklearning]

OK - I won't take a risk on the original itinerary I proposed. But, how bout this:

 

May 13 - Oosterdam RT Seattle

May 20 - Get off Oosterdam and get on a ship from another cruiseline - RT Seattle

 

Surely there is nothing wrong with this?

 

:eek:

[jtl513]

May 13 - Oosterdam RT Seattle

May 20 - Get off Oosterdam and get on a ship from another cruiseline - RT Seattle

No problem at all with that. The 2nd could even be a HAL ship. People do things like that often in Ft Lauderdale. Some are b2b on the same ship.

[rafinmd]

OK - I won't take a risk on the original itinerary I proposed. But, how bout this:

 

May 13 - Oosterdam RT Seattle

May 20 - Get off Oosterdam and get on a ship from another cruiseline - RT Seattle

 

Surely there is nothing wrong with this?

 

:eek:

 

Can't see anything wrong with that. It looks like you are talking about Norwegian Jewel and it looks a bit repetitive to me but you do get both Tracy Arm and Glacier Bay but you'll be repeating Ketchikan, Juneau and Victoria. All in all sounds like a great 2 weeks and perfectly ok as long as you don't disembark prematurely in Alaska.

 

Personally, if doing 14 days from Seattle I'd rather be on the Amsterdam true 14-day cruise, but what you're doing sounds fine. ENJOY!

 

Roy

[Tampa Girl]

Yes, and add to that a 'distant' foreign port.

 

 

I don't know what "distant" foreign port means. Obviously, on the Western Caribbean cruises, Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, and Mexico qualify. I was surprised to learn that Panama does not qualify. Sure seems "distant" to me! Is there a mileage denominator?

[jtl513]

I don't know what "distant" foreign port means. Obviously, on the Western Caribbean cruises, Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, and Mexico qualify. I was surprised to learn that Panama does not qualify. Sure seems "distant" to me! Is there a mileage denominator?

No, they do not. Those are all near foreign ports, which are sufficient to satisfy the law on round-trip cruises out of US cities. (Read post #16 again.) The only distant foreign ports in this hemisphere are in South America or the Aruba/Bonaire/Curacao islands just off the S.A. coast.

 

"Distant" in this case is defined by the people who wrote the law and/or the courts that interpret it.

[RuthC]

I don't know what "distant" foreign port means.

 

"Distant" in this case is defined by the people who wrote the law and/or the courts that interpret it.

John's answer is it in a nutshell. Government regulations frequently fall under the heading of "by definition". When you work for the government you get so used to it that you learn to think that way all the time! :eek:

 

A sort of rule of thumb is that a "distant" foreign port is another continent. It's close enough for government work. ;)