Rape on Carnival

[gfy012]

IMHO...a few rotten apples spoils the fun for everyone :mad:

 

Huh? A few rotten apples? What is that suppose to mean?

[fan1080]

To the people who think it's ok for 12-17 to have all this freedom (to roam the ship 24/7 and more):

 

Don't you teach your children life skills:

1-Look both ways before crossing a street

2-Don't take candy from a stranger

3-Wash your hands before you eat

The list goes on........

 

I don't jog around Central Park @ 4:30 in the morning. I'm a grown-up. It's not against the law. I've learned that I have a better chance of "not being victimized" by not putting myself into vulnerable situations.

 

Yeah...the rapist is to blame. But, don't increase your likelihood of being his victim.

 

I'm sure the parents of the boys feel that their little angels were also victimized by the adult. (I am NOT defending them!!!)

 

If their parents had taught the boys "life skills" (don't roam till 4:30 am; don't drink) then they also would have avoided being victimized. (I'm just saying how their parents will defend them...again I am NOT defending them.) Because, as we know from other threads...boys will be boys...and it was all "the other kids" fault.

 

IMHO...a few rotten apples spoils the fun for everyone :mad:

 

All of what freedom, specifically?

 

Some allow all the freedom their kids want, Not a good idea, IMO, but others are fine with it.

 

Some set a curfew (9pm, 10pm, 11pm, 12pm, 1am, 2am, etc). What is acceptable to you, may not be acceptable to others.

 

And to answer your questions about other life skills being taught....

 

Some do all you listed, some do much more, some do less. Again, what is acceptable to you, may not be to someone else.

 

The thing is, the amount/degree of life lessons we teach our kids does not give anyone the right to violate them. If we make a bad decision, it doesn't give someone else the right to take advantage of it, and our mistakes don't lessen the guilt of the person committing the offence. That lies solely, 100%, with the person committing such offence.

 

Everyone can repeat the mantra of lessoning the likelihood of being victimized. But the level of lessoning such, is not the same for all people, and pointing fingers at someone because we think they didn't teach their children enough life lessons will not make what happened any better. All we can do is do our best to teach our kids good life lessons, and hope they make good decisions.

 

These girls paid dearly for their bad decision. I won't make any comments on the specifics of this case because there are too many unanswered questions. My comments are more generic in nature.

[halos]

Teenagers are foolish and do stupid things. They don't have the life experience to know how bad things can be if they put themselves in what an adult knows to be a dangerous situation. This is why it is vital for parents to be 'bad cop' and stop being 'good cop' all the time. We cannot, as parents risk being our child's friend in order for them to not 'hate us' during thier teen years.

 

That being said, obviously it is the rapists 'fault'. No matter how true that is, if I were the parent of that girl, I would probably hate myself forever for giving her that much freedom.

I'd rather be strict and deal with the kid hating me for years than what those parents must be feeling.

jmo.

Everyone must chose what's best for them and their kid...being protective is what I did. My kids are 24 and 27 now and fortunately I made it through without going through somethign horrific like this. The world is FULL of animals like this man....the rape being his 'fault' does not make the rape any easier to swallow. Parents need to protect their kids. Period.

[nitro2448]

Cruise ----- bruise is the site

[RuthlessBoss]

Huh? A few rotten apples? What is that suppose to mean?

Are you serious??

[K.T.B.]

Sorry I can't let this go:

 

First, it is presumptuous and irresponsible to suggest that a couple who has different proclivities from your own would also seek out and intoxicate women for the sole purpose of sex they would otherwise be unwilling to have (i.e., statutory rape). You presented nothing that would lead a reasonable person to this conclusion.

 

From what I can tell, there was a couple looking for a like-minded woman with whom to share a good night. Even though nobody in the roll call took him up on the offer, it doesn't sound like he tried to force himself on anyone. What's the actual problem here?

 

Also, what exactly were you going to warn people about if you saw "such a couple?" That there's a couple who want to share their bed with a another woman? What if another woman is like-minded and interested? Just because something isn't your cup o' tea doesn't mean you need to save the world from it.

 

Finally, sharing this story in a thread about a rapist is completely uncalled for. Don't lump someone who is merely different from you in the same category as a rapist. It's a dangerous way of thinking.

 

Ok, off my soapbox, back to arguing about how curfews are the magical rape prevention technique.

 

I like you. Let's be friends.

 

Seriously, very well said.

 

 

 

As for what happened, I hope all involved get what they deserve. Period.

 

Also, I saw that no one responded to the following comment, does anyone know the answer?

 

I have a couple of questions here. Since Carnival registers its ships in Liberia or Panama and the rape occurred at sea, under what laws can the perpetrators be charged? We are dealing with, I suppose, the laws of Liberia or Panama and/or maritime laws. Does anyone know how this works, or how this will work? I'm thinking that if a US citizen attacks another US citizen in (as an example) The Bahamas, Bahamian law would prevail, not US law even though both parties were US citizens. How does this work on the high seas with Panamanian or Liberian registered ships?

Pamela

[Blasian]

Please stop bashing other people's methods of parenting. We all are trying to raise our children the BEST way we can in this cruel world.

 

You can teach your children morals and equip them with making correct choices but ,ultimately, it will be their own decisions and choices they make.

[nitro2448]

I like you. Let's be friends.

 

Seriously, very well said.

 

 

 

As for what happened, I hope all involved get what they deserve. Period.

 

Also, I saw that no one responded to the following comment, does anyone know the answer?

 

I doubt anyone here really knows, but like anybody I can guess In this case since both parties involved were US citizens, whatever country or territory it happened in could turn them over to US authorities for investigation I posted the name of a website 3 or 4 posts back, if you go to that site, under cruise ship rapes, there was a like to cruise ship rapes videos. Some of those videos they talk to a man from Colorado who specializes in cruise ship crimes and maritime laws. At the time of the videos I watched they only gave stats from two lines, and until recently cruise ship crimes did not have to be reported. Now they do, in the time span they gave, there were something like 108 sexual assaults on carnival and 173 on royal Only 1 was ever prosecuted

[nitro2448]

An FYI, the one the did get prosecuted, raped a 14 year old girl an only got 3 Years

[hebbynan]

First of all, nowhere in any of my posts did i say a kid NEEDS to be running around the ship at 3 AM. When my daughter was younger I NEVER let her run around the ship alone period, let alone 3AM. What I said was the parents need to set the curfew, not Carnival. In all of my posts these are MY OPINIONS, you do not have to agree, nor do I with yours. so in MY opinion, if you are a parent asking Carnival to set a curfew, it is because you dont have control of your kids and are asking for help in doing so, or you are a parent who is more of a friend than a parent, and do not want to make your child mad. So if Carnival sets the curfew, then it's " well i'm sorry but thats Carnivals policy". If you are a passenger with no kids, you want Carnival to set a curfew just to keep the kids away at night so you can enjoy it with no kids running around. While I do not think kids should be running the ship at even midnight, another parent might. Just because you and I do not agree with it, you and do not have the right to to tell someone else how to raise thier kids, as long as child abuse is not involved. Yes I agree, I see several parents who let thier kids run free, and I dislike it, but it's thier kids not mine. And if everyone would quit focusing on this one case and go read all stories on ************, it's not just girls, it's not just kids, it's not just early morning hours, it is all the time and everywhere. 65% of all sexual crimes are by ship empolyees, so yeah, lets have the employees bring our kids back at night because we do not want to be a parent.

 

Wow...becuase I think a curfew might be a good idea does not mean that I am telling people how to parent. As I am a parent that is not a friend to my child (yet) and am one that knows where my children are, who they are with, what they are doing at all times....I am not a parent that needs Carnival to mandate curfews for MY CHILDREN. I simply meant that perhaps if there were a curfew in place it might make the parents that do let their children roam the boat alone late at night take a step back and perhaps realize that maybe it's not such a smart idea.

 

And I'm not just talking about rape or other horrid things. It's safety period for everyone involved. Anything can happen and why take the chance with your child. It's also for Carnival's protection as well.

 

I know that curfews won't stop things from happening like this rape. But since it does happen, perhaps Carnival should look into all aspects of safety and how to prevent accidents and tragedies.

 

Like you said, you don't have to agree nor I with you. But I want safety for everyone...not just my family. I'm on the cruise to have fun....but I want to feel safe too.

[cruzzza]

65% of all sexual crimes are by ship empolyees, so yeah, lets have the employees bring our kids back at night because we do not want to be a parent.

 

I think you made an assumption that (probably?) wouldn't happen. IF they were to enact a curfew, I think it would be HIGHLY inappropriate to have a male crewmember escort a female minor back to her cabin. In fact, I think no matter what the sexes, that should not be how it is handled. IMO, The parents room should be called and the parents should be made to come pick up the kids. If the parents aren't in the room, that's a problem. I'm not sure how the best way to enforce it would be in that case. Maybe that's why they've never enacted one (enforcement problems/issues). I can see it now... crewmembers enforcing curfew get cursed out because mommy & daddy got interrupted from their sleep/partying and cause a huge scene. :rolleyes:

[nitro2448]

I think you made an assumption that (probably?) wouldn't happen. IF they were to enact a curfew, I think it would be HIGHLY inappropriate to have a male crewmember escort a female minor back to her cabin. In fact, I think no matter what the sexes, that should not be how it is handled. IMO, The parents room should be called and the parents should be made to come pick up the kids. If the parents aren't in the room, that's a problem. I'm not sure how the best way to enforce it would be in that case. Maybe that's why they've never enacted one (enforcement problems/issues). I can see it now... crewmembers enforcing curfew get cursed out because mommy & daddy got interrupted from their sleep/partying and cause a huge scene. :rolleyes:

 

If talking about the statistics no I'm not making an assumption, it's in the video As far as who escorts the kids back, how exactly do you think that would work? Depending on which ship there can be 1,000 or more kids on that ship, it's not like carnival would assign an employee to each kid based on sex. They way it work is at the curfew time all kids go back to their room. The parents who don't want their kids roaming the boat are already in the room, it's the kids of the parents who don't mind the kids roaming that are out there. Come curfew time they probably still don't care, so now it will be which ever employee that sees a kid after curfew time, it's their responsibility to get the kid to the room. So if a male employee sees a female kid after curfew, now what? Plus if you did more than just read the words in my post, not every sexual assault was involving a male on female, some were male on male. If you want a fine curfew fine, but your not solving a problem. Your trusting cruise ship employees, who committed 65% of the assaults, with the safety of your kids. Really ?

[misstopgun]

There is not a single person on this thread blaming that poor child. The blame is on the SITUATION. We as parents can direct until we are blue in the face about rules and regulations, and its all we can do.

 

I know I was pretty damn indestructible as a teenager... but in truth,

 

I was damn lucky. Plain and Simple. Took growing up and being an adult to realize it.

Yes! "But for the grace of God go I"!

 

Most of us as teens did things we never would have done later in life or things our parents would never have suspected. Most of us were lucky it didn't lead into something like this.

 

Also keep in mind this girl was 15 years old. Does anyone know the statistics on girls that age that are sexually active? It might surprise you.

 

Who knows what the circumstances were. Maybe she really "liked" one of the guys in the group and felt safe and protected to a degree if they had hit it off.

 

No matter how she got into the room, willingly or otherwise, I am sure she never expected anything like this to happen. At 15 girls are feel indestructable and cannot be told much. They think they know it all. I know I did.

 

Regardless, she bares no blame, even if she was going against her parents wishes or doing something not considered safe, rape is not a sexual act, it is a act of physical violence.

 

I think most of us just need to count our blessing and appreciate the fact that our own decisions at that age didn't lead us into such a horrific experience.

 

God bless that girl and heal her wounds. Also the friend who was held hostage and unable to help in the bathroom.

 

It isn't Carnival responsibility to watch everyones children. It also shouldn't be blammed on the parents. We have no idea if they even knew the girl was out roaming. Blame is not what anyone needs right now. they need strengh to recover.

 

The only blame here is those that violated the poor girl, regardless of the circumstances. It doesn't matter how she got into this unprotected position. What they did was unexcusable for any reason. There is nothing in the world either the girls or the parents could have done that would justify what was done.

[johneeo]

Teenagers are foolish and do stupid things.

 

Worth repeating.

 

UGH! Thinking about the things I did:confused:

[cruzzza]

If talking about the statistics no I'm not making an assumption, it's in the video As far as who escorts the kids back, how exactly do you think that would work? Depending on which ship there can be 1,000 or more kids on that ship, it's not like carnival would assign an employee to each kid based on sex. They way it work is at the curfew time all kids go back to their room. The parents who don't want their kids roaming the boat are already in the room, it's the kids of the parents who don't mind the kids roaming that are out there. Come curfew time they probably still don't care, so now it will be which ever employee that sees a kid after curfew time, it's their responsibility to get the kid to the room. So if a male employee sees a female kid after curfew, now what? Plus if you did more than just read the words in my post, not every sexual assault was involving a male on female, some were male on male. If you want a fine curfew fine, but your not solving a problem. Your trusting cruise ship employees, who committed 65% of the assaults, with the safety of your kids. Really ?

I am not debating or questioning your statistics in any way (nor did I in the other post). When I said "assumption" I was talking about how you assumed that the policy after curfew would be to walk the kids to their room. I was saying that I did NOT think it was a good idea for a crewmember to escort a minor back to the room, no matter what sex or combination of sexes are involved. I did read your words, and understood them, but I don't think you understood what I wrote back. I don't expect or even think it's a good idea for anybody to get escorted back to their room. I AGREED with you on that. I wondered how they would handle the problem of what to do with the kids when they found them after curfew. I suggested to call the parents to come get them, but also said that that opened up a whole other set of problems such as what to do with them in the meantime. I agree that a curfew probably wouldn't solve the problem, but I do think that it might help a little. I guess I don't understand why it would be so bad. I'm not suggesting that Carnival employees be trusted with walking the kids anywhere and even admitted I didn't know how they'd deal with the kids they found after curfew. How does Royal do it? I've read on this thread where they have a curfew.

[nitro2448]

I am not debating or questioning your statistics in any way (nor did I in the other post). When I said "assumption" I was talking about how you assumed that the policy after curfew would be to walk the kids to their room. I was saying that I did NOT think it was a good idea for a crewmember to escort a minor back to the room, no matter what sex or combination of sexes are involved. I did read your words, and understood them, but I don't think you understood what I wrote back. I don't expect or even think it's a good idea for anybody to get escorted back to their room. I AGREED with you on that. I wondered how they would handle the problem of what to do with the kids when they found them after curfew. I suggested to call the parents to come get them, but also said that that opened up a whole other set of problems such as what to do with them in the meantime. I agree that a curfew probably wouldn't solve the problem, but I do think that it might help a little. I guess I don't understand why it would be so bad. I'm not suggesting that Carnival employees be trusted with walking the kids anywhere and even admitted I didn't know how they'd deal with the kids they found after curfew. How does Royal do it? I've read on this thread where they have a curfew.

 

I agree with 100% that there should be a curfew, j just think it the parents who should set it. If carnival sets it you might get a few parents to abide by it, but most who don't have a curfew now, probably won't So when the kids don't come back at curfew time, it's up the parents to go find them, and they probably won't, so now it's when the employes to get them back. I don't know how royal c. Does it If carnival issues a statement today saying they now have a curfew, I'm fine with it It will make my night time cruising a little quieter I just don't think it's their job

[gfy012]

Are you serious??

 

About what?

[meggie711]

Wonderfully worded. I've been very upset by some of the comments that have been made about the girl and her decision to go to the room.

 

This whole story is so very sad. My heart breaks for this girl, her family and her friend who had to hear it happening. Having had to sit in a hospital with my best girl friend while they conducted a rape examination on her will always be stuck in my mind so I will never have sympathy for those who committed the crime.

 

I hope ALL of these predators get to spend a long time in jail. It's not just the adults fault. These young men made a choice too.

 

As for parenting, I will keep my thoughts to my self as I don't feel that's what this thread should truly be about. Everyone has their own opinions.

I agree. It will be interesting to see how some will argue that the boys were too young to know better, but that the girls should have known better than to go to the room. I hope justice is served.

[Amy Giard]

I have a couple of questions here. Since Carnival registers its ships in Liberia or Panama and the rape occurred at sea, under what laws can the perpetrators be charged? We are dealing with, I suppose, the laws of Liberia or Panama and/or maritime laws. Does anyone know how this works, or how this will work? I'm thinking that if a US citizen attacks another US citizen in (as an example) The Bahamas, Bahamian law would prevail, not US law even though both parties were US citizens. How does this work on the high seas with Panamanian or Liberian registered ships?

Pamela

 

The ships registration really has nothing to do

with legal jurisdiction. Usually the country

whose citizen was victimized will handle

the prosecution.

 

In this case US citizens assaulted US citizens

and the FBI federally charged the suspect.

 

If he had assaulted a British citizen, the UK

would most likely prosecute.

[wentworth]

To the people who think it's ok for 12-17 to have all this freedom (to roam the ship 24/7 and more):

 

IIf their parents had taught the boys "life skills" (don't roam till 4:30 am; don't drink) then they also would have avoided being victimized. (I'm just saying how their parents will defend them...again I am NOT defending them.) Because, as we know from other threads...boys will be boys...and it was all "the other kids" fault.

 

IMHO...a few rotten apples spoils the fun for everyone :mad:

 

 

Rapists are now called "rotten apples"?

[Crusin6]

Thank you for interpreting. I'll try to keep my responses very simple and to the point, in order to avoid "confusion".

 

I can guarantee that her parents (or whoever was responsible for her) are blaming themselves for allowing her to roam around freely; or, one parent is blaming the other. That's what all parents do when there is a tragedy with their child. They blame each other...because very few will accept the responsibility.

 

Nothing makes rape ok. But there are things one can do to avoid being in the situation.

 

People..would you walk around Ocho Rios by yourself, with a 3 ct diamond ring? Probably not...because it would just "invite" someone to rob you.

 

It's the same thing with a 15 year old roaming on a ship at 4 am. It's inviting trouble.

 

The lesson...to put it clearly and concisely....is that you should not invite trouble. You should go out of your way to avoid it. Because, even though you think "that's something that happens to other people", it can happen just as easily to you.

i understood what you meant

[AZbeachboy]

The ships registration really has nothing to do

with legal jurisdiction. Usually the country

whose citizen was victimized will handle

the prosecution.

 

In this case US citizens assaulted US citizens

and the FBI federally charged the suspect.

 

If he had assaulted a British citizen, the UK

would most likely prosecute.

 

The other thing that I read was that there is no statutory rape at sea, so no one can be tried for that, either the man or the teens. In most states it would be if the teen was two years more or older than the victim. So, if the boys were 18 or 19 that might have been a charge as well.

[sparks1093]

The other thing that I read was that there is no statutory rape at sea, so no one can be tried for that, either the man or the teens. In most states it would be if the teen was two years more or older than the victim. So, if the boys were 18 or 19 that might have been a charge as well.

 

As I understand it statutory rape only enters the picture if the rapist tries to use the defense that the act was consensual- I don't see anything "consensual" about holding someone down and using force.

[GraNanny]

As I understand it statutory rape only enters the picture if the rapist tries to use the defense that the act was consensual- I don't see anything "consensual" about holding someone down and using force.

 

I thought so too, so didn't understand why the various news articles online mentioned this. There must be something they haven't disclosed?

[MsTabbyKats]

And from an unbiased source commenting on this case:

 

FBI Special Agent Dave Couvertier said that even during vacations, parents must keep their children's safety in mind no matter how many security measures are in place. Children who are unsupervised are prime targets for victimization, he said.

"Whether at a sporting event, theme park, or a on a cruise, you need to be aware that there are hundreds of people from all walks of life participating in the related activity ... This could include thieves, con men, and even child predators," Couvertier said. "Families should fully enjoy their vacations, but should never have a false sense of security."