Court Ruling....ADA (Americans w/ Disabilities)

[vicdreyer]

The US Supreme court ruled that foriegn ships in american waters can be sued for descriminating against disabled passengers. Here's a link:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06348286.htm

 

In short, 3 wheelcahir/scooter bound individuals sued... becasue "It said physical barriers on the ships denied the disabled passengers access to emergency evacuation equipment and to facilities such as public restrooms, restaurants, swimming pools, elevators and cabins with a balcony or a window."

 

You think this will change the cruise industry?

 

Vic

[spongerob]

I'm not sure of the details of this case, but I believe that the newer ships are much more accessible. Older ships, maybe less so with their narrow passageways and small cabins. I doubt that the ruling will have much of an effect on current practices.

[Pam in CA]

Even on the Royal Princess, pretty much everything was wheelchair accessible. One of the people at our table for our 21-day cruise is a paraplegic and he was able to go anywhere, do anything. I've been on the Regal Princess when there quite a few people in wheelchairs and they were very well taken care of; I even saw them on the tenders going ashore.

 

The only regulation that I'm aware of on Princess is that wheelchairs and scooters can't be left in the hallways outside the cabin. That is for the safety of all passengers in the case of an emergency to keep the hallways clear.

[FredS]

If cruise lines to have to retrofit some ships, then the cost of cruises will go up to pay for the changes; we know that much.

[Coral]

This is a great ruling and the right ruling. The lower courts have ruled both ways on this issue - at least there is now a Supreme Court ruling.

 

Princess actually has done a great job in regards to people with disabilities. Some of the other lines have not done as well.

[jnwfla]

A very good decision! I doubt it will change the industry.

[Druke I]

PAMinMA mentions Royal Princess (aka Artemis) as being very accessible.

 

When she first went into service, she was advertised as 100% accessible - but after ADA came out, they had to change their advertising - although very accessible, door widths did not meet ADA standards, along with some door frame lips, etc.

 

ADA is very specific about measurements and clearances, and what might be perfectly satisfactory in another country might not pass ADA scrutiny.

[Pam in CA]

PAMinMA mentions Royal Princess (aka Artemis) as being very accessible.

 

When she first went into service, she was advertised as 100% accessible - but after ADA came out, they had to change their advertising - although very accessible, door widths did not meet ADA standards, along with some door frame lips, etc.

 

ADA is very specific about measurements and clearances, and what might be perfectly satisfactory in another country might not pass ADA scrutiny.

Thanks for the info, Michael. I just know that our tablemate was in a wheelchair and he had no problems getting around, going anywhere on the ship or getting off. His only 'complaint' was that with everything carpeted, his arms got tired.

[LisaH]

Even the SS Norway was wheelchair accessible. And she was built in the 50s.

[BigDoug]

This is going to have a very chilling effect on the cruise industry in America. Every ambulance chaser in America will be filing a suit (or worse a class-action suit) on behalf of someone allegedly discriminated against by a cruise line. This will cost the cruise lines many, many dollars to litigate, not to mention the cost of retro-fitting all the existing ships in their fleets. This could actually drive some cruise lines out of US waters. This was a win for the lawsuit-happy lawyers and not for the average cruiser. It seems that we will again be forced to pay for the cost of accommodating a very small minority. Compliance with the ADA standards costs our economy billions every year. If cruise lines can be sued for non-compliance with the ADA, how about all the freighters that call on US ports? How about foreign airlines? This could really affect all transportation in this country.:(

[jnwfla]

LOL Doug. Don't worry, I just checked, the sky is not falling.

[phillipahain]

Maybe it will stop some stupid TAs selling disabled cabins to able bodied people just because the cabins are larger !!

 

WE were allocated a disabled cabin on a recent cruise ( we did not request it ) and despite asking to be relocated to a standard cabin both before and after we got onboard we were shocked to see how many disabled passengers had to leave their wheelchairs in the hall because they could not get them into standard cabins

 

Hence Princess were at fault totally and any passenger who was denied a handicapped cabin on my sailing should sue them

[calikak]

In case anyone wants to read the actual opinion rather than a news article here's a link to the official syllabus, and there are links at the top of that page to the opinions themselves:

 

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-1388.ZS.html

 

It should be noted that this is a somewhat complicated opinion, in that some parts of it were agreed on by a majority, and others not: " Kennedy, J., announced the judgment of the Court and delivered the opinion of the Court with respect to Parts I, II—A—1, and II—B—2, in which Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer, JJ., joined, an opinion with respect to Parts II—A—2, II—B—1, II—B—3, and III—B, in which Stevens and Souter, JJ., joined, and an opinion with respect to Part III—A, in which Stevens, Souter, and Thomas, JJ., joined. Ginsburg, J., filed an opinion concurring in part and concurring in the judgment, in which Breyer, J., joined. Thomas, J., filed an opinion concurring in part, dissenting in part, and concurring in the judgment in part. Scalia, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which Rehnquist, C. J., and O’Connor, J., joined, and in which Thomas, J., joined with respect to Part I—A."

 

It should also be noted that the Access Board is currently working on draft accessibility guidelines for cruise ships and the hearing/comment process is still going on. See this website for further info: http://www.access-board.gov/news/pvag-hearings.htm. If you have strong feelings about what should or should not be included in the guidelines, now is the time to write to them and tell them, or go to one of the remaining public hearings if you live nearby. For those unfamiliar with the accessiblity guideline process, the way it works is that the Access Board drafts guidelines, then gets public comment and makes revisions, then puts them into "final" form. Then the Justice Department takes the guidelines, reviews them, makes any changes they want (usually not many), and notifies the public that they're planning to adopt the guidelines. Another comment period ensues, and then the Justice Department adopts them as final rules, which is when the guidelines become binding. The whole process can take many months/years. In the meantime, I'm not sure what guidelines are in place that apply to cruise ships. There are more general guidelines, commonly known as ADAAG, that apply to all places of public accommodation (malls, hotels, restaurants, etc.) but I'm not familiar with how ADAAG would work in the context of a cruise ship.

[vicdreyer]

In case anyone wants to read the actual opinion rather than a news article here's a link to the official syllabus, and there are links at the top of that page to the opinions themselves:

 

Is the opinion also in spanish?

[Chuck&Toni]

I am betting that BIGDOUG is right. I predict that some lawyers (less than scrupulous ones - I'm not indicting the whole profession) will go around looking for problems and find plaintifs to sue on behalf of. A couple of lines will be sued and lose lots of money, then all the lines will either have to raise prices for all of us and/or end access to parts of the ships that can only be reached via stairwells.

[whiterose]

This is a good ruling especially for those of us who are disabled but not in wheelchairs. I'm extremely hard of hearing and can never enjoy the shows or other entertainment because the ships do not have Assistive Listening Systems. The new regulations will require them and also fire and safety alarms with flashing lights. This stuff is relatively inexpensive.

 

Most lawyers are not interested in ADA litigation because the fines are so small and you cannot collect damages - the best that will happen is that the fault is corrected.

[cruznliz]

I think overall Princess is pretty well covered. I've heard they've won awards for "access" as well. Also the last paragraph does mention "Assisted Listening Devices" on "most ships". This is from the Cruise Answer Book:

***********************************

PRINCESS ACCESS

Princess makes every effort to accommodate our passengers with disabilities. Just be sure your travel agent notifies us of your wheelchair usage and/or any other special needs prior to sailing. We have wheelchair-accessible staterooms on all Princess ships. Each ship has a limited number of wheelchairs available to pre-reserve, but please be aware they must be confirmed in advance. Wheelchairs reserved for onboard use cannot be used for pre- and/or post-cruise land tours or hotel packages. If you require a mobility device in those instances, you must provide your own. When bringing your own wheelchair, we highly recommend collapsible wheelchairs, as the width of stateroom doors varies. Some Princess ships have areas that are not wheelchair accessible.

 

Accessibility varies widely on pre- and post-cruise land tours and hotel packages. Not all products have lift-equipped transportation options available and, when available, arrangements must be secured in advance to accommodate your needs for pre- or postland tours. To ensure we can accommodate your needs, please call the Tour Quality Department at 1-800-627-4212.

 

If you have purchased a Princess Transfer at the start or end of the cruise, be aware that lift-equipped transportation may be available in your port of embarkation or disembarkation. When available, arrangements must be secured in advance to accommodate your needs. To ensure we can accommodate your needs, we ask that you contact us at 1-800-PRINCESS.

 

Passengers utilizing mobility devices with batteries are advised that the batteries must be of a dry cell type and they will be required to be stored and recharged in the individual staterooms. Scooters and or wheelchairs may not be left in hallways.

 

Because we are not staffed with specially trained personnel to assist passengers with physical challenges, we recommend you be accompanied by someone who is physically able to assist you both ashore and onboard if necessary. Travelers with disabilities should check in with the on-board Tour Office to ensure all prereserved tours can accommodate their needs. Not all port facilities are easily accessible for those using mobility devices. Ports of call may be accessed by a variety of methods including, but not limited to, a ramped gangway, series of steps or by tender. In some cases, you may be able to access the tender; however, the shoreside facility is not accessible. With your safety and comfort in mind, the decision to permit or prohibit passengers from going ashore will be made on each occasion by the ship's Captain, and the decision is final. Those ports which normally utilize tenders to access the shore are noted on the itinerary.

 

In many ports of call a mechanism known as a stair climber is used to assist passengers up and down the gangway. The stair climber requires passengers transfer to a Princess wheelchair which is then connected to the stair climber and operated by the ship's personnel. If you cannot transfer or your personal mobility device cannot be easily disembarked due to size or weight, you may be precluded from going ashore.

 

If you are traveling with a service animal, please be aware Princess requires notice in advance. Entry regulations vary from port to port and there are some ports that prohibit the landing of animals altogether. Passengers are advised to consult the local authorities at each port of call prior to departure for the necessary documentation. Princess does not provide food for service animals.

 

All Princess ships are equipped with TTY kits that can be placed in most passenger cabins and arranged at Princess Wilderness Lodges. Additionally, all televisions onboard provide closed captioning and most onboard theatres are equipped with assistive listening devices. Electric outlets in most staterooms are limited to one and it is helpful to travel with an extension cord if you are using equipment for sleep.

*********************

As far as a non-disabled passenger being in an "accessible" cabin, I would fully blame the TA. Agencies block groups of cabins which I'm sure include the accessible cabins. Their commission is made by booking cabins. Should the accessible cabin be held back or booked to just anyone? :(

[ladylynne]

Hence Princess were at fault totally and any passenger who was denied a handicapped cabin on my sailing should sue them

 

thats right.... everyone needs to just sue everyone... what a much better place we'd all be in.... my sizziling apple pie was too hot today at applebees and i burned my tongue. I think I'll sue them for making it too hot. :eek:

[lynwar]

In Oct. 2001, we sailed on the Golden Princess, but didn't have a cabin number until we got to to the terminal. The porter had to look it up on the typewritten manifest.It was A-303. When we got to the window we were congratulated. When we got to the cabin, we were flabbergasted! It was huge! Wow, what an upgraded from a plaza, inside! As we thought about it later, we decided that it must have been a handicapped accessible cabin.Everything was double size,and the bathroom was humongous! No tiny little shower there-it was BIG. The only thing that must have happened was that due to 9/11, there were lots of cancellations-even though the ship said it was sold out. We didn't go through a TA-we went directly through Princess. We happened to get that cabin by chance. Is it the fault of Princess that we-as nondisabled people-were given that cabin? It certainly spoiled us enough to book more cruises. Half have been inside, one other was an aft balcony. Lynne

[calikak]

I think they assign the accessible cabins to the GTY bookings at the last minute the same that the would the regular cabins, so it would make sense that if you got assigned a cabin at the last minute, that they might assign you an accessible cabin. What makes wheelchair users upset is when travel agents sell accessible cabins to people that they know don't need them, and then when the wheelchair user tries to book an accessible cabin, they're all sold out.

 

I think the public areas on Princess ships are fairly accessible already, especially the newer ships. Walking around the ship, it looks to me like the designers had the ADA in mind when they designed the public spaces. To me, it seems like a smart idea for the cruise industry, whose customer base includes more elderly people than the general population, to design ships that allow people with mobility problems to get around easily.

[BigDoug]

This is a good ruling especially for those of us who are disabled but not in wheelchairs. I'm extremely hard of hearing and can never enjoy the shows or other entertainment because the ships do not have Assistive Listening Systems. The new regulations will require them and also fire and safety alarms with flashing lights. This stuff is relatively inexpensive.

 

Most lawyers are not interested in ADA litigation because the fines are so small and you cannot collect damages - the best that will happen is that the fault is corrected.

 

Wake up people. You see the ads on tv for the product liability lawyers and the malpractice attorneys. Soon you will be seeing ads for the ADA-compliance attorneys. This is a growing area for attorneys. Just do a Google search . Here are some examples of ADA lawsuits:

http://www.adalawsuits.com/pages/7/index.htm

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/10529906.htm

http://library.findlaw.com/2004/May/13/133455.html

http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2004_3rd/Sept04_DisabilityGroups.html

http://www.calchamber.com/biz%20issues/2005/summaries/05-ADALawsuitAbuse.pdf

This is a quote from an article: "My experience is that we are first taken seriously when the lawsuit is served on the defendant. Once a lawsuit is filed, then negotiation is possible. Once a lawsuit is filed, then mediation is possible. With a lawsuit, the disabled person has lawyer (and the lawyer will, in the end, be paid by the defendant). With a lawsuit, their attorney can hire an ADA consultant, who will also be paid by the defendant. The costs of preparing for negotiating, the costs of drafting settlement agreements, the costs of mediation (including paying the mediator) can all be paid by the defendant. With a lawsuit, there is money to pay for these things. Without a lawsuit, there is no money." http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/focus/accesssuitshotz1104.html

From the San Diego Union Tribune: "Three states, California, Hawaii and Florida, also allow an injured party to recover extra monetary sums, including attorneys' fees, punitive and other damages. Some argue that the fear of paying thousands of dollars for an ADA violation gives property owners an economic incentive to comply with special access laws. "http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050408/news_lz1e8poochlgn.html

 

What states do most of the cruises in the US depart from?

[Hate 2 W8t]

Big Doug...you sound like a former Californian! You are SOOOO right! People who disagree with you are just not in the loop, and should be thankful for it!

 

Due ADA lawsuits in CA, we have extortionists going around and threatening small businesses with lawsuits for issues like a handicapped parking space being 1/4" too narrow. This does not affect access. Even if it did, the law affords no opportunity for the business to "fix" the problem. Our "good" representatives in the CA legislature tried to pass a bill that would allow a business a 30-day window to correct the violation, but nooooo, the d**m dem's (who are bought and paid for by the trial attorneys in CA) couldn't possibly pass a law that would limit frivolous litigation while still providing access for the disabled! I am all for access for the disabled, but I am not for lining the pockets of sleasy attorneys and people looking to make a quick buck.

 

If you don't think this really happens, call the elderly couple in Northern California who put their life savings into a winery for their retirement, only to lose it to some jerk who wasn't even disabled because of a parking space being 1/4" too small. These are the things that keep me up at night and make me sick!

[Druke I]

The two newspaper articles I read on the decision seem to indicate that the Supreme Court is throwing the issue back to the lower courts for a definitive

interpretation of what might be required, and is not mandating a massive remodel of current ships to insure compliance.

 

I suppose this could lead to a spate of lawsuits - and a spate of conflicting decisions that will later have to be heard at the District Courts of Appeal, and then back to the Supreme Court, for another waffling decision.

 

It is a shame that there are so many lawsuits in our current society. I think our courts are remiss in accepting some of them, many of which should be tossed as frivilous(sp) and malicious..

[Dreamer333]

This may sound like a silly question, but I'll ask anyway...

 

How can the US Supreme court be allowed to make a ruling for foreign-flag ships?

[Pam in CA]

I'm not an expert nor do I know much about it but even though the ships are not registered in the U.S., the companies do business in the U.S. (i.e., their "product" is sold in the U.S.) and have U.S. headquarters. That's my guess why they must be in compliance.