Why Always Princess Ships Have Norovirus and not RCCL?

[silverbird]

Please go to this site and read where RCCL has dealt with noro just within the past week.

 

http://www.******************.com/category/category/norovirus

[gingera]

Yes, I agree. I saw the same on the Emerald last week. These ships are cleaner than anything I can think of- cept maybe hospitals. Then again, maybe even cleaner than a hospital..

 

And, hospitals are not necessarily all that clean . I constantly am around E.coli, pseudomonas, c.difficile and MRSA to name a few. My father actually died from Klebsiella which he acquired while in the hospital.

[gingera]

Very interesting thread to read. For me, it boils down to washing my hands with soap and warm water as often as possible.

 

Yup, agreed and wash for much longer than one thinks he/she should...the friction of the washing and the soap is what kills organisms..not hot water...Hot water probably will kill organisms, but it has to be hotter than our hands can tolerate.

That is why surgeons scrub and scrub and scrub prior to wearing sterile surgical gloves before surgery.

[ellie1145]

We were on the 9 th December Allure of the Seas cruise and embarkation was delayed because of norovirus on the previous cruise. We were told that it was a very small number of passengers on the cruise who had got ill, but nevertheless they took the situation very seriously and put things into place to deal with it. We were unable to serve ourselves in the buffet, not even drinks for the whole cruise, nor were we allowed to pick up our own cutlery.

 

The ship was constantly cleaned, lifts, handrails, everywhere.

 

So it is not true that RCI ships don't get norovirus. However they handled it fantastically well. Unfortunately it is the passengers who think that running their hands under the water for 2 seconds with no soap is sufficient - it isn't. Many don't even bother to wash their hands at all, and men are often the worst.

 

I am sure norovirus affects all cruise ships, and it is taken very seriously by the cruise operators. Unfortunately you cannot stop those passengers who either inadvertently, or knowingly spread the virus.

 

I teach young children, and we have serious tummy bugs constantly at school, though nobody ever uses the term norovirus, which it most likely is. It is not taken seriously and no extra cleaning or precautions are taken. Sometimes we have half of the children absent, and naturally staff are affected, too. Despite our best efforts children are not careful about washing hands, and little ones often come to school without having been taught to even flush the toilet.

 

We DO teach children the correct way to wash hands, and use a special light machine to show them what is left n your hands when you don't wash properly, but still they either don't wash hands at all or do so very minimally. Unfortunately we cannot spend our whole day teaching small children what their parents should already have drummed into them.

 

I would much rather be on a ship where cleaning is a million times better and more efficient. However, I do think that the use of the gel does give a false sense of security to some people. It won't kill norovirus, so all passengers need to be more aware of hand washing. But you will never get 100% cooperation. Just watch those passengers who walk swiftly past the gel stations!

[baldercash]

The OP is definitely on to something even Carnival Corp is aware that Princess has a problem.

 

From "CARNIVAL CORPORATION STRATEGY REPORT"

"In the 2009-2011 period, Carnival-owned companies accounted for 56% of all viral outbreaks, compared to a 48% average market share (p=.11).i Additionally, Princess Cruises had 10 outbreaks, or 20% of total outbreaks, despite only having a 6% market share (p=.001)."

 

Seems Carnival Corp ships are bad but Princess more so!

 

My wife spoke to the MDR Greeter on out last Princess cruise (Emerald, Oct.) and asked why they did not offer hand cleaner, he said it made no difference.

 

Funny we are about to do a RCCL T/A April 6th and the wife is taking extra tip money and goodies to hand out during the cruise to the staff that clean the elevator sand stair rails and such. We don't notice on Princess but these staf are constantly present on RCCL & X.

 

So maybe something in the up keep iwth the cleaning of the ship?

[caribill]

Yup, agreed and wash for much longer than one thinks he/she should...the friction of the washing and the soap is what kills organisms..not hot water...Hot water probably will kill organisms, but it has to be hotter than our hands can tolerate.

That is why surgeons scrub and scrub and scrub prior to wearing sterile surgical gloves before surgery.

 

Neither the hot water or the washing actually kills the norovirus. What the hot water and washing does is to wash the norovirus off of your hands and down the drain.

[caribill]

Funny we are about to do a RCCL T/A April 6th and the wife is taking extra tip money and goodies to hand out during the cruise to the staff that clean the elevator sand stair rails and such. We don't notice on Princess but these staf are constantly present on RCCL & X.

 

 

We see constant cleaning by staff on Princess cruises. Some is done during the day, but much of it is at night.

 

When there is a noro alert, the cleaning is constant. I have often left my cabin when I returned a few minutes later. the door knob is still wet from a new cleaning.

 

Picture shows cleaning in daytime in the Concervatory on the Star Princess.

 

[swedish weave]

It is interesting how many posts refer to the ship as being the source of the noro outbreaks when it is actually people who spread the virus.

 

The CDC has specific procedures for the cruise personnel to follow when the number of noro cases reaches a certain point. The removal of condiments from tables is one step, and eliminating self service is another. So --when you see these things happening, it will be on any ship that is following the CDC guidelines.

 

There are many sources that say the hand sanitizers do not kill nor stop the noro virus. They do help with cleanliness and stopping other sources of infection and contamination.

[baldercash]

It is not the ship and I doubt it is the people then what is the cause?

Food or the food preparation?

[baldercash]

Excellent post!

 

Norovirus is everywhere and anywhere and anyone can get it and spread it. Norovirus takes all prisoners no matter what station they are in life, what religion, nationality, where they are employed and what ship they sail on. You can wash your hands till they are raw, but the virus can still get you.

 

To the OP, I have never been sick on a Princess ship despite the figures you

are questioning. If you have never been sick on all your cruises, then be thankful and keep vigilant. I will be vigilant also, but with the knowledge I could contract the virus eventually and it could be anywhere, not just on a ship.

 

Problem is Princess has a disproportionate number of out breaks. It accounts for 20% of the outbreaks with only 6% market share.

That is significant!

[caribill]

Problem is Princess has a disproportionate number of out breaks. It accounts for 20% of the outbreaks with only 6% market share.

That is a significant!

 

Only 3.5% of the Princess cruises I have been on have had a noro code red alert.

[Mom33]

Problem is Princess has a disproportionate number of out breaks. It accounts for 20% of the outbreaks with only 6% market share.

That is a significant!

 

The virus is carried by humans, not cruise ships.

[gingera]

The virus is carried by humans, not cruise ships.

 

Bingo!!.. but it can be transferred to items, eg. hand rails, door knobs, and elevator buttons.

[Mom33]

Bingo!!.. but it can be transferred to items, eg. hand rails, door knobs, and elevator buttons.

 

And after they are cleaned, another human comes along and so on and so on.

Once it is onboard, it is hard to eradicate.

 

The point is that it happens on all ships and if anyone thinks that Princess is an unclean ship, you have a choice to sail on a ship that has never had Noro. :D although I can't think of one.

[gingera]

Neither the hot water or the washing actually kills the norovirus. What the hot water and washing does is to wash the norovirus off of your hands and down the drain.

 

 

 

Yup!

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/cruiselines/hand_hygiene_general.htm

 

The important thing to remember is wash often, longer and use friction..

[easy_123]

Only 3.5% of the Princess cruises I have been on have had a noro code red alert.

 

and

 

"Problem is Princess has a disproportionate number of out breaks. It accounts for 20% of the outbreaks with only 6% market share.

That is significant!"

I am always amazed when I read such statistics. On what basis are these numbers? How Valid are they? How Reliable are they? Significant? On what basis, Statistical, Clinical or Fear Mongering? (Both "Validity” and “Reliability” are terms used in analysis of statistical evidence.) With both of these quotes there are so many statistically relevant issues they are virtually without value. Please recognize that the use of “percentages” – as in these quotes - is meaningless.

 

And when you do quote a source other than yourself, please give the reference (i.e., the website).

What is far more important is - since Norovirus is a possibility - what can I do to lesson that possibility. As reference above, here is what the CDC recommends:

“What is the right way to wash your hands?

 

• Wet your hands with clean, running water (warm or cold) and apply soap.
  
• Rub your hands together to make a lather and scrub them well; be sure to scrub the backs of your hands, between your fingers, and under your nails.
  
• Continue rubbing your hands for at least 20 seconds. Need a timer? Hum the "Happy Birthday" song from beginning to end twice.
  
• Rinse your hands well under running water.
  
• Dry your hands using a clean towel or air dry them.”
  

From: http://www.cdc.gov/handwashing/

[Charles4515]

The OP is definitely on to something even Carnival Corp is aware that Princess has a problem.

 

From "CARNIVAL CORPORATION STRATEGY REPORT"

"In the 2009-2011 period, Carnival-owned companies accounted for 56% of all viral outbreaks, compared to a 48% average market share (p=.11).i Additionally, Princess Cruises had 10 outbreaks, or 20% of total outbreaks, despite only having a 6% market share (p=.001)."

 

The report you are quoting is about Carnival from a consulting group. Have no idea who they are or what their agenda may be but it is not by Carnival Corp.

[Charles4515]

And after they are cleaned, another human comes along and so on and so on.

Once it is onboard, it is hard to eradicate.

 

The point is that it happens on all ships and if anyone thinks that Princess is an unclean ship, you have a choice to sail on a ship that has never had Noro. :D although I can't think of one.

 

Noro spreads easily in closed environments like cruise ships and retirement homes. The retirement community my mother lived in had outbreaks almost every year. It is person to person spread. As far as food which has been mentioned, that is only if an infected person is handling the food. They may handling the food before they know they are infected. Hopefully they would not if they know they are sick.

 

Also the outbreaks on cruise ships and retirement communities get reported because those are static locations with medical personnel. There are probably many more cases happening in the world that just get reported as a sick day.

[baldercash]

The report you are quoting is about Carnival from a consulting group. Have no idea who they are or what their agenda may be but it is not by Carnival Corp.

 

I bet they were referring to the CDC reports.

Of the 16 CDC reported Cruise ship out breaks in 2012 Princess accounted for 7.

That is very unusual, disproportionate and reason to think there is something out of sorts.

Seems to be more then hand washing needed.

 

Not saying 7 out breaks is a huge deal when you consider the hundreds of Princess cruises does yearly. It just hints at something amiss.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm#2012

[Charles4515]

I bet they were referring to the CDC reports.

Of the 16 CDC reported Cruise ship out breaks in 2012 Princess accounted for 7.

That is very unusual, disproportionate and reason to think there is something out of sorts.

Seems to be more then hand washing needed.

 

Not saying 7 out breaks is a huge deal when you consider the hundreds of Princess cruises does yearly. It just hints at something amiss.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm#2012

 

Actually it is really six since one of the reports is over two sailings but looking at one year 12 month period does not hint there is something amiss with Princess. If you look at other 12 month periods you would come up with other results. One year is not enough data to indicate something special about Princess.

 

Please tell us what is the something more that is needed? Perhaps a medical exam of every passenger before boarding? Station crew members in the restrooms and cabins and watch passengers and crew members wash their hands?

[caribill]

I am always amazed when I read such statistics. On what basis are these numbers? How Valid are they? How Reliable are they? Significant? On what basis, Statistical, Clinical or Fear Mongering? (Both "Validity” and “Reliability” are terms used in analysis of statistical evidence.)

 

And when you do quote a source other than yourself, please give the reference (i.e., the website).

 

 

 

49% of known causes of foodborne illness outbreaks from 2006 to 2010 are from the norovirus (source: CDC http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsnorovirus/)

 

There were 1518 confirmed norovirus outbreaks in the USA in 2010-2011. (source: CDC http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsnorovirus/)

 

About 61 of these were on cruise ships (all cruise lines). This is the same amount as in hospitals and the same amount as in schools. It is about one-half the amount as in restaurtants. (source: CDC http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsnorovirus/)

 

Thus, it appears you are twice as likely to be part of a norovirus outbreak dining in a restaurant before a cruise than when on a cruise.

[caribill]

The point is that it happens on all ships and if anyone thinks that Princess is an unclean ship, you have a choice to sail on a ship that has never had Noro. :D although I can't think of one.

 

So far, the new Royal Princess has not had one outbreak of norovirus reported to the CDC.

[baldercash]

Learning a lot about the industry trying to understand why so many cases.

This report says it is more likely in the water or food? I know a lot of people won't drink water or use ice cubes on planes and ships due to fears of illness.

 

"Why Do the Cruise Lines Always Blame the Passengers When Norovirus Breaks Out?"

December 21, 2012 by Jim Walker

 

Yesterday I mentioned that over one hundred people are sick with norovirus aboard the Crown Princess cruise ship which will be arriving in Galveston tomorrow at the end of a 20 day cruise from Italy. This is the third outbreak of noro on this particular Princess cruise ship this year.

 

According to the Food & Drug Administration (FDA), although there are cases of noro illness transmitted by hand-to-hand contact, the most likely cause of a norovirus outbreak is contaminated water. Contaminated food is also a likely culprit.

 

But if you study the last one hundred cruise ship norovirus cases, one thing is certain - the cruise line will always blame the passengers for bringing the virus aboard.

 

The New York Times just published a short (three sentence) article about the latest norovirus outbreak on the Princess ship. The newspaper reports that Princess is again pointing its finger at its passengers:

 

http://www.cruiselawnews.com/2012/12/articles/norovirus/why-do-the-cruise-lines-always-blame-the-passengers-when-norovirus-breaks-out/

[Charles4515]

 

"Why Do the Cruise Lines Always Blame the Passengers When Norovirus Breaks Out?"

December 21, 2012 by Jim Walker

 

 

I read Walkers blog but you have to understand when reading it that Walker business is suing cruise lines. He has an ax to grind and often puts up outright bull****.

 

When something bad happens on a cruise ship he is delighted. You can tell from his tone.

 

Norovirus breaks out every year. This year was a particularly bad worldwide outbreak. It started in Sydney Australia, not on Princess. Of course passengers are going to bring viruses epidemics that are circulating on land on to cruise ships. Read the news story below.

 

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/health&id=8958169

[easy_123]

 

First, thank you all for providing references! It so does raise the discussion to a much more meaningful level.

 

Second, I once had a sociology professor who maintained that there was only one cause of death ---- living. (I would his name but I believe he has proven his own argument.)

 

Or, to quote a surgeon I once knew, "you have to be alive to being inconvenienced." (He was once a combat surgeon in Vietnam.)

 

And so it is with novo virus. You do what you can take care of yourself, and then keep living.