Reining in the Wild West of the travel industry

[pmacher61]

That's what travel insurance is for....and if you don't like the contract you are agreeing to then you can always choose another form of vacation. Nobody is twisting your arm to cruise.

Do you think it is fair for the cruise company to make a windfall profit by reselling the cancelled cabin, not only losing nothing on it, but making a windfall profit from the 2nd resale?

Are you familiar with contract law concepts of liquidated damages?

[klfrodo]

What's up with this "is it fair" crap? Sounds like my 10 year old daughter.

 

Now, do I agree with every consumer policy set forth in a contractual agreement that I enter into? Not necessarily.

 

However, I have a choice. Enter into the agreement or not.

 

You have the same choice.

 

Or, even better,,, Start your own cruise line the same way Every other cruise line did, one ship at a time,,,, then you can set policies any old way you desire.

[luddite]

Do you think it is fair for the cruise company to make a windfall profit by reselling the cancelled cabin, not only losing nothing on it, but making a windfall profit from the 2nd resale?

Are you familiar with contract law concepts of liquidated damages?

 

FWIW: If life were fair, we wouldn't need handicap parking spaces.

 

Fair isn't part of the equation.

 

A BIG reason for penalties sustained when cancelling late is simply to cut down on the number of late changes. If it was easy and not costly lots of people would book willy-nilly and not pay a second notice to cancelling at the last minute. The ship needs to sail full and the system helps ensure that.

 

The comment about the first-born indentured into servitude is just......infantile. Agree to the terms or don't go. That's your options in a nutshell.

[smeyer418]

actually Florida where many not all these contracts are venued has an implied duty of fair dealing in every contract which is covered under Florida law. I am not sure if any one has attacked the cancellation terms on that issue...

[JanineM]

Does anyone else share my opinion that the penalties for cancellations in ship cruise contracts is unfair? Isn't that something that could be brought more into line with the airline industry? What about the strict limits on liability, forum and venue selection? Abbreviated statutes of limitations? One-sided right to cancel cruise for any reason (including more profitable charter) with no consequences?

 

I don't agree. Ever heard of 'buyer beware'?

 

If you don't like the options presented then you can make a CHOICE to not cruise. Vote with your dollars and use them on airfare if you so choose.

[pmacher61]

actually Florida where many not all these contracts are venued has an implied duty of fair dealing in every contract which is covered under Florida law. I am not sure if any one has attacked the cancellation terms on that issue...

Many jurisdictions have the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing read into every contract, however the law generally provides that there can be no implication if the subject is expressly covered. It seems like the current cancellation policies might be vulnerable on a theory of unlawful liquidated damages.

Gee, I never imagined the cruisecritic readership was so... Republican. I wonder how these folks feel about raising taxes on the wealthy to correct the obscene disparity in wealth that characterizes our society.

[Warm Breezes]

Do you think it is fair for the cruise company to make a windfall profit by reselling the cancelled cabin, not only losing nothing on it, but making a windfall profit from the 2nd resale?

Are you familiar with contract law concepts of liquidated damages?

 

We had to cancel the night before a planned cruise when DGM passed away. I don't care if the cruise line was able to resell it or not. I had insurance and was reimbursed for the cruise we missed. That's why I bought it.

[ldubs]

oops -

[Jasalth]

Do you think it is fair for the cruise company to make a windfall profit by reselling the cancelled cabin, not only losing nothing on it, but making a windfall profit from the 2nd resale?

Are you familiar with contract law concepts of liquidated damages?

 

 

Actually, most hotel in the US do this also. Come to think of it, so do a lot of doctors, airlines, service people who come to your house... I am sure I could find more if I thought about it for more than 3 mins.

 

Hotels at least say "If we can't fill your room" if you cancel in a specific period. And how does one know if they fill the room or not? For privacy reasons I am sure they can't give out the names, addresses and phone numbers of someone if they did.

 

Same thing goes for doctors/dentists. If we have an appointment scheduled, we receive at least 1 if not more calls in the weeks before hand with them trying to fill the canceled spot and then "rebook" the time we had. If it's with-in 24 hours, the doctors office gets to charge my insurance company their full fee, me a cancellation fee AND whoever they get to take the appointment in full! The same thing as the cruise ships do.

 

If all these services have the same polices, why does it make it fair for them to do it and not a cruise line? Oh wait... is this more of that selective discrimination? Things like smoking is bad, soda is bad, fast food is bad. Alcohol? Yeah.. we know it kills you, and is the ONLY drug that the detox process alone will kill you, but drink up, go have 3 drinks and drive it's all good if you aren't over the limit, not the point you are actually more likely to kill someone that way!! :rolleyes:

[JanineM]

Gee, I never imagined the cruisecritic readership was so... Republican. I wonder how these folks feel about raising taxes on the wealthy to correct the obscene disparity in wealth that characterizes our society.

 

Now this is an excellent way to make your thread go poof.

 

We all have different political leanings and remember that many of our posters are from countries where there is no such thing as 'republican'. What most of us agree upon is reading contracts fully, making choices, and then taking responsibility for our choices.

 

Oh - and we all love cruise vacations. Sometimes that makes up for political disagreements.

[cruisinlesson]

So let us look at what our government has done for the cruise industry. No cruise ships are built at US Ship yards. Very few ship officers are American (although we know of a few exceptions). The PVSA prevents what could be some great coastal cruises (along both the East Coast and West Coast). New CA fuel rules have driven some ships away from the CA ports (it costs more money to switch over to the low sulphur fuels). There are very few US Flagged passenger vessels because of our taxes and labor rules. So, by not building ships in the US, using more US ports, using more US crew, etc. our wonderful government has simply cost us many jobs and additional economic benefits that would be derived from additional cruise business.

 

Hank

 

I was recently on the pacific princess, reading a book about the SS United States, a cruise ship that did over 40 knots! I asked some officers on the pacific princess had they heard of this ship, nope, never had. A cruise ship that does 40 plus knots? NO WAY! The glory days of america probably peaked with the SS United States. I watched an episode of THE LOVE BOAT while on the pacific princess too, the one with billy crystal as a kissing bandit! That was great, watching the love boat on the love boat. LOL! I asked all the officers where are the young women I can go an steal a kiss from like billy crystal did on the show, they said I better not, could go to JAIL! See how things have changed? Billy Crystal got to steal lots of kisses from young beauties! Why wasn't he getting 10 years being locked up as a sex offender? :eek:

 

On the love boat tv show, it was all american officers! ;) On the new love boat, they did have a black bartender though! I died laughing, he was really cool too, like isaac from the show, but he was from Jamaica.

 

I was on the celebrity millenium going out of san diego and had to ride a bus to Ensenada, I posted on the thread about that, how Indiana Jones didn't have as much adventure as I did going through mexico for that! LOL! I thought government and rules were here to serve mankind, not the other way around, silly silly rules and red tape bueraucracy!

 

I hear what you are saying about the USA, we lost our steel industry, or ship building industry, our cruise staff labor, etc etc

 

All offshored to places that will do it cheaper. I even hear now that mexico has cheaper wages than china, and so it goes, empires rise and fall.

 

http://www.economicsinpictures.com/2012/01/history-of-reserve-currencies.html

 

Personally I am taking all the cruises I can NOW, as populations grow, oil gets harder to distribute globally (never mind the pumping), rules and government red tape around the world get more complicated, I think cruising in the future will be reserved for only the billionaires, so get while the getting is good! LOL!

[pdmlynek]

Does anyone else share my opinion that the penalties for cancellations in ship cruise contracts is unfair? Isn't that something that could be brought more into line with the airline industry? What about the strict limits on liability, forum and venue selection? Abbreviated statutes of limitations? One-sided right to cancel cruise for any reason (including more profitable charter) with no consequences?

 

I understand what you mean. The way that the contracts are written does seem to be way too one sided, i.e., in favor of the cruise line.

 

But you do understand, of course, what would happen if a government (U.S., Canadian, or any other government under which the ships operate) would restrict the freedom to write the contract in this way, correct? The free market would adjust accordingly. This may not necessarily be the way that we the cruisers would want.

 

For example, hypothetically, if a government would require the cruise lines to give the passengers the ability to cancel their cruise at any time for any reason, then the cruise lines would likely lose revenue, because they would not fill the cabins of passengers who cancel 3 days before the cruise, or fill them with passengers at way below cost. Simply put, the cruise line would take a hit on the revenue. They would of course have to adjust the prices or services accordingly. If, hypothetically, they would lose 20% of revenue to any-time cancellation, then we would likely see a 25% increase in ticket prices.

 

Similarly, if the government would force the cruise lines to let passengers chose a more plaintiff-friendly forum, then the cruise lines would have to figure out the increased business risk, and would also adjust their prices accordingly.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[pdmlynek]

“Cruise ships, in large part operating outside the bounds of United States enforcement, have become the Wild West of the travel industry, and it's time to rein them in before anyone else gets hurt,” Schumer said in a statement. “This bill of rights, based on work we've done with the airline industry, will ensure that passengers aren't forced to live in third world conditions or put their lives at risk when they go on vacation.”

http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/04/carnival-s-triumph-breaks-loose-from-its-dock-us-senator-calls-for-cruise-ship-passenger-bill-of-rights?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily

 

Isn't it about time?

 

OT rant:

It would really be nice if today’s newspapers that publish their articles on-line, would realize that there exists things called “hyperlinks” which would help readers understand their articles. Why does MercoPress expect readers to search for Chuck Schumer’s bill using Google, instead of simply providing the readers with a link? It would be really helpful for the discussion here to understand what his bill says. :(

[Gunner22aa]

First I am Canadian but if the US were to adopt this my country would be sure to follow. The potential to put the cost of cruising up certainly exists. If company A pays X for insurance now and has Y liability per passanger they will certainly pay X+ if Y+ goes into effect. If the company and the shareholders won't wear the additional cost, the passangers will have to. As a share holder in both the major cruise corporations I like my dividends right where they are now.

 

Will this turn companies away from the North American market, never when the bulk of their bottom line comes from here. Cruising from a North American port while expensive is light years cheaper than most of the other major international cruise ports.

[smeyer418]

there is no bill. It was one of the Senator's Sunday press conferences and releases(he holds one every Sunday)

 

http://www.schumer.senate.gov/Newsroom/releases.cfm

 

I actually couldn't find the one for cruise ships but this will give you some idea...

I don't think his website is as well maintained as it used to be...

[smeyer418]

http://www.schumer.senate.gov/Newsroom/record.cfm?id=341068&&&search_field=cruise%20ships

 

on further checking here is the Cruise ship bill of rights press release.

 

Remember the most dangerous place to be in Washington, it is said, is between Senator Schumer and a TV camera...

[pmacher61]

Nothing in this Bill of Rights that strikes me as onerous. I still believe the penalty provisions for cancellation are too severe. Is it really "fair" (yes, fair - I like fair and I think businesses need to be regulated to avoid certain unfair, heavy handed practices) to lose the entire price of a cruise when one cancels 100 days out from embarkation. I do not see anything on the subject in Schumer's bill and still wonder whether the cancellation penalties have ever been challenged as unlawful liqudated damages.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore, I would suggest you explore the following criteria for a Cruise Ship Passenger Bill of Rights:

 

1. The right to disembark a docked ship if basic provisions cannot adequately be provided onboard

2. The right to a full refund for a trip that is abruptly canceled due to mechanical failures

3. The right to full-time, on board professional medical attention in the event of a major health crisis

4. The right to real-time information updates as to any adjustments in the travel plan of the ship in the event of a mechanical failure or emergency

5. The right to a ship crew that is properly trained in emergency and evacuation procedures

6. The right to backup power in the case of a generator failure

[Donray]

1. The right to disembark a docked ship if basic provisions cannot adequately be provided onboard

2. The right to a full refund for a trip that is abruptly canceled due to mechanical failures

3. The right to full-time, on board professional medical attention in the event of a major health crisis

4. The right to real-time information updates as to any adjustments in the travel plan of the ship in the event of a mechanical failure or emergency

5. The right to a ship crew that is properly trained in emergency and evacuation procedures

6. The right to backup power in the case of a generator failure

 

1. No one stops you from leaving the ship at any port.

2. You will get a full refund of your cruise cost if the cruise is cancelled.

3. There is a full time doctor on board all cruise ships.

4. They provide this but many people think they don't.

5. Crew is trained and all ships have drills.

6. There is backup power unless a fire destroys the power grid and then no amount of backup power will help. You do know that there are probable at least three diesel electric engines on all modern ships?

[pmacher61]

@ Donray

Read the linked article. Yes, nothing very onerous, but not all is so cut and dry.

Have you an opinion on cancellation penalties?

[Warm Breezes]

@ Donray

Read the linked article. Yes, nothing very onerous, but not all is so cut and dry.

Have you an opinion on cancellation penalties?

 

Get travel insurance....

[pmacher61]

Get travel insurance....

One should not have to pay to avoid an oppressive and unfair business practice.

Does anyone know if the cancellation penalties have ever been challenged legally?

[luddite]

One should not have to pay to avoid an oppressive and unfair business practice.

Does anyone know if the cancellation penalties have ever been challenged legally?

 

You still don't understand?

A BIG part of the reason for the system is to prevent frivolous bookings that get cancelled at the last minute.

[pmacher61]

You still don't understand?

A BIG part of the reason for the system is to prevent frivolous bookings that get cancelled at the last minute.

Understood.

The general rule in US/UK contract law is that it is impermissable for one side to obtain penalty damages for the simple breach of the contract by the other. The non-breaching party is only entitled to the actual damages that are proximately caused by and reasonably contemplated for the breach. Many contracts provide for "liquidated damages" which are perfectly okay when the actual damages might be hard to calculate, however liquidated damages must bear a reasonable relation to the actual damages that will be incurred by the non-breaching party. Moreover, the non-breaching party is required by law to take reasonable measures to limit the damages which the breaching party will have to pay.

 

Applying those rules to the cruise industry, it would make sense to require the cruise line to make a reasonable effort to resell all cabins made available by cancellation for which a liquidated damage amount is contractually provided. Prices may be set at reasonable levels taking into account all circumstances, e.g. length of cruise, difficulty of market conditions, avoiding a phenomenon of buyers waiting for last minute "deals", etc. It might even be reasonable not to drop the price at all or to drop it very little. If, and only if, the cabin remains unsold would the breaching party get no refund. If the cabin is resold, the breaching party would be entitled only to a return of his payment minus the amount which the cruise lost on the resell and the reasonable expenses incurred to resell it.

 

This would not create any hardship for the cruise lines and it would be consistent with standard operating practices in most commercial fields. Cruise ships seldom sail with empty cabins. To the extent they sell a cabin twice, it is an unfair windfall to them and an unfair penalty on the customer.

[luddite]

They DO sell the cabins that are cancelled.

It's still a PIA for them. If you could cancel two weeks out with no consequences they would have a LOT of rooms to fill.

Good luck to you.

[Donray]

@ Donray

Read the linked article. Yes, nothing very onerous, but not all is so cut and dry.

Have you an opinion on cancellation penalties?

 

You are advocating that there should be no penalties for cancellations of Air line tickets, doctors appointments, etc. What about theater tickets? They have a big no refund clause. Should people be able to cancel anything up to a minute before and receive a complete refund?

You are saying that there should be no penalty for cancellations. If you order some furniture and they have it on the truck for delivery you should get all your money back if you call and cancel. After all they will sell it to someone else.

So, tell me how you feel about contracts being enforced? Should arbitration contracts with your doctor be enforceable? After all, you are forced to sign them or remain sick.

What about a non refundable hotel room costs? Do you think that hotels where you agree to pre pay with no refund should also have to refund since they could resell the room?

Should Priceline and Hotwire be made illegal since they do not refund?

Why do you want to pick on the cruise lines only?