New CAS tier calculation contrary to historical treatment?

[PokerDave]

There has been a lot of discussion/consternation (see other New CAS thread) about CAS's poor rollout of their new program of tiered cards with different benefits.

 

I'm starting this different thread specifically to bring up a different issue that I think was unfair in their new program.

 

Background:

 

Wife and I have been going to land based casinos for 25+ years. We are generally very good at understanding odds on games, choosing the best pay tables at video poker, etc... and have enjoyed trying to make the most of our gambling $$$ to maximize comps and our return on our gambling "investment".

 

To this end, we have almost always both played on one casino card account. I just always get multiple copies of my card and she plays on that. This puts all the points on one account and when getting in a certain amount of play makes a difference this is important. We have always been up front about it, and casino systems have always permitted this.

 

We also have always done this on NCL, until our last couple of cruises. We had hosts talk us into using multiple accounts because they ASSURED us that they always take our play together in total when considering comps on a particular cruise as well as in whether or not you would get a discount or comped cruise in the future. And up until this new tiered program they were completely accurate. For the last couple of cruises, we have played on our own accounts and all our onboard comps as well as consideration for future cruises (have a comped balcony booked for later this year) looked at our combined play and treated us accordingly.

 

Now comes the new system, where I have 13,500 points which is just short of Golden and DW has 4,000 points which is just short of Hot (this is disregarding the fact that we have another cruise which missed the tier calculation cutoff by a week at the end of Dec 2011 which would have given us each enough to be up a level).

 

Had we not been asked to play separately and assured this wouldn't affect our status with them in any way, we would have just played on my cards and I would be Golden.

 

We have certainly always done this with Harrah's (now Caesars) Entertainment where I am diamond with them and DW never uses her account. Playing separately we wouldn't be diamond.

 

Any one else been encourage down this path to their detriment?

 

Even if they wanted to make a hard and fast rule that you have to play on your own account, tough beans, then at least I have the option of channeling all our gambling budget through my card and she just watch. But I have to know that in order to make that decision...

 

In my opinion they should grandfather us in based on combined play (and/or slightly older play than the suddenly imposed exactly one year rating period), and explain that in the future, here is how the system works and let us gamble accordingly... Especially given they have already lied to me (and many others) when I initially called in to check on my tier level and they told me I was Golden and DW was Hot.

 

Right now me gambling accordingly is likely to mean I take the comped cruise I have coming up and not play much which is much more likely a "win" for me than a win for NCL (or I should say Caesar's)...

[phoenix1181]

Their card, their rules, rules change, & life isn't fair. Make your decision based on the new rules & be prepared for them to change again in the future............

[PokerDave]

Their card, their rules, rules change, & life isn't fair. Make your decision based on the new rules & be prepared for them to change again in the future............

 

What a helpful post. Thanks so much...

[Beaver1975]

Their card, their rules, rules change, & life isn't fair. Make your decision based on the new rules & be prepared for them to change again in the future............

 

Very well put.

 

We were "rules"d out of CAS bookings some time ago and have watched with some amusement as the "rules" continue to change to put NCL at a major advantage. I am sure they are still making out very well but, we have all but eliminated our casino activity.

[PokerDave]

Very well put.

 

We were "rules"d out of CAS bookings some time ago

 

Interesting. How were you "rules"d out? This is the first big change I've noticed in the program...

[Beaver1975]

Interesting. How were you "rules"d out? This is the first big change I've noticed in the program...

 

Over the years they have changed the qualification requirements to "weed out" the low level players. You probably did not notice the previous changes because they did not affect you. There have been many discussion, in the past, just like what is going on now about the CAS program changes.

 

They are now just taking it to another level of "weeding" out players. I understand you play a lot and think your deserve what you have been receiving in the past forever. But, with the popularity of NCL's CAS program some VERY serious gamblers have taken a liking to NCL. So, NCL is just narrowing down the field of people they need/want to service and are probably still making money hand over fist. Times change and programs change. C'est la vie!

[PokerDave]

I understand you play a lot and think you deserve what you have been receiving in the past forever.

 

I actually have no issue at all with them formalizing the tier levels. Had I been Golden like they initially said, there are some benefits that I hadn't previously gotten (although perhaps I would have had I asked) that I was looking forward to.

 

My point in this post was that they pushed us to split our play onto individual cards and assured me this wouldn't adversely impact us, but it has.

 

Obviously "life isn't fair" and they can change the program any time they like, but without feedback that can be a dumb decision.

 

Pissing off your best customers is usually not a good plan, and they have certainly ruffled a lot of feathers with these changes. In particular with rolling them out poorly.

 

They are most certainly not trying to "weed out" ANYONE that they are comping a free balcony room for 2. The other benefits pale in comparison to this, which is also part of my point. Why comp me a room worth $3,000 (based on our combined play) then not make us Golden vs Hot when the cost difference there to them is maybe a hundred or 2?

 

It's just dumb as well as not consistent...

[Starry Eyes]

I am sorry the new program disappoints you. It does not do anything for me as a low level, casual player...then again, I know I am a casual player and do not really expect any rewards (past redeeming my on line coupons and BOA reward).

 

If they allow you to combine points, you could climb categories faster. Of course, from their point of view is the program is designed to identify and reward big time players, or is it designed to identify and reward cooperative groups of lower level players? To exaggerate the point, if I go on a family reunion cruise on NCL and get thirty of my relatives to use my card, even though none of us individually gamble much, I'd probably collect enough to look like a real player in the CAS system. Do you think I deserve a comped cruise :rolleyes:(where I'd return to my miserly gambling ways)? that would not be a profitable decision for CAS. So, I guess we are back to their program, their rules, subject to change.

[NLH Arizona]

I am sorry the new program disappoints you. It does not do anything for me as a low level, casual player...then again, I know I am a casual player and do not really expect any rewards (past redeeming my on line coupons and BOA reward).

 

If they allow you to combine points, you could climb categories faster. Of course, from their point of view is the program is designed to identify and reward big time players, or is it designed to identify and reward cooperative groups of lower level players? To exaggerate the point, if I go on a family reunion cruise on NCL and get thirty of my relatives to use my card, even though none of us individually gamble much, I'd probably collect enough to look like a real player in the CAS system. Do you think I deserve a comped cruise :rolleyes:(where I'd return to my miserly gambling ways)? that would not be a profitable decision for CAS. So, I guess we are back to their program, their rules, subject to change.

Your analogy reminded me of an incident that happened at a casino in Minnesota, while I lived there. They were giving away a free car to the person who had the most points on video poker for a month. A couple used the same card and then had the nerve to have their family all use that same card. Well, of course, they won the car, that is until the casino uncovered their little plot and the person, in second place, who played by the rules (it was for the "person" who got the most points) got the new car.

 

I'm not sure what level I'll be for my November cruise and I'm not going to call CAS or sit around worrying about it, because there is nothing I can do about it. Why sit around worrying about what tier level you will be, all that will do is get you all hot and bothered and probably leave you going into your cruise with an "I might be getting screwed attitude.

[PokerDave]

If they allow you to combine points, you could climb categories faster.

 

Obviously me handing out my cards to a bunch of people would be out of line. But my wife and I essentially have ONE gambling budget, not 2...

 

And they DO let you combine points!!! And they should. It is how they evaluate (and how they always will) whether or not to give you a free room or not. And trust me, they don't give me a "free" $3,000 room if they don't plan for me to lose more than that in the casino.

 

I'm fine with them tracking my wife separately, just have an issue with each of us coming up just short or tiers individually based on only having one cruise in twelve months (even though we have 2 in 13 months). Our "per trip average" is great. And is likely what they should use for tiers rather than some overall hard number of points per 12 months... It is what casino hosts have always done. It makes little sense to comp someone more than me on a given cruise who has 5,000 more points than my 13,500, but they did that over 40 cruise days when I did it in 10. It is all about what are you worth to me in a day.

 

We STILL qualify for a free room in the new system. Any objective human host who looked at our play would say, "absolutely give them a free room". They certainly don't want to weed me out...

 

So here they have a good loyal customer who was happy with the system that is now frustrated.

[NLH Arizona]

Obviously me handing out my cards to a bunch of people would be out of line. But my wife and I essentially have ONE gambling budget, not 2...

 

And they DO let you combine points!!! And they should. It is how they evaluate (and how they always will) whether or not to give you a free room or not. And trust me, they don't give me a "free" $3,000 room if they don't plan for me to lose more than that in the casino.

 

I'm fine with them tracking my wife separately, just have an issue with each of us coming up just short or tiers individually based on only having one cruise in twelve months (even though we have 2 in 13 months). Our "per trip average" is great. And is likely what they should use for tiers rather than some overall hard number of points per 12 months... It is what casino hosts have always done. It makes little sense to comp someone more than me on a given cruise who has 5,000 more points than my 13,500, but they did that over 40 cruise days when I did it in 10. It is all about what are you worth to me in a day.

 

We STILL qualify for a free room in the new system. Any objective human host who looked at our play would say, "absolutely give them a free room". They certainly don't want to weed me out...

 

So here they have a good loyal customer who was happy with the system that is now frustrated.

Just wondering, which of the Golden comps are you most upset about losing?

[tel2]

Well, I don't actually see this as a long term issue -- it affects OP (and me as well, because my husband and I do the same thing - we both play mostly on my card ) for this year only. As I posted previously, first I was golden and he was hot, now I am hot and he is lucky. But now we know the rules, and now we will go back to playing all on my card, so the initial year is the only one that will be affected. We have 3 cruises booked between now and next march 31, so there is a reasonable shot we get to VIP or certainly at least gold if we put all our play on my card. (We use my card instead of his because I often go with friends or family without him - he isn't as much a fan of crushing as am I -- so I need to make sure the benefits apply to me even if he isn't with me. )

 

In my view this was a rollout problem. They rolled out the program with no demographic surveys, no planning, no training of the hosts on the ship, no guidance for the hosts so they understood what each tier benefit really entailed. As I said before, the marketing person responsible for this rollout should be fired. They would be in almost any other organization. What could have been an amazing marketing gimmick for them that would have locked in more loyal customers over the long term turned into a fiasco.

 

This mimics the structure and entitlements of the Harrahs/Caesars land based programs, but the implementation is not even close to how Harrahs handled Their new rollout this year. At Harrahs, we are seven stars, their top tier. Or I should say I am. Usually my husband is diamond. This year, in a year where we were a bit out of control, we both made seven stars, playing the first half of the year on my card, and then switching to his when I hit the seven stars level. Harrahs this year changed their levels and entitlements for all the levels. For that, we got a preprinted bound book before the new period started explaining they were changing the benefits, explaining in detail all of the new benefits, complete with email and phone numbers to call if we had any questions, plus a personal follow up call to make sure we understood the new program. Second, since they were changing the point totals needed for either seven stars or diamond, they grandfathered in current folks at those levels allowing them to reach their renewal level in the coming year either under the new program or under the old program for the first year. Last, the Harrahs earning periods make way more sense -- they calculate 1/1 to 12/31' but the tier level goes from 4/1 to 3/31, giving them 3 months from the end of the earning period to the effective date of the new tier so that they can notify their customers, send them informative descriptions of the benefits, and allow time to correct glitches and make sure the hosts understand the benefits being offered. None of those planning mechanisms were out into place here, resulting in clueless representatives, uninformed hosts, and extremely irritated customers.

 

Terry

[Fishbait17]

I am also peeved by the new CAS program, not because of the program itself, but by the way it was introduced. Hubby and I combined earned more than 30,000 points in the calendar year 2012 on two cruises (me, about 24,000 hubby about 10,000) and yet we are Hot and Lucky respectively, because they introduced the earning period retroactively with no warning. I too was told I was Golden based on my longstanding CAS history, and after I booked a cruise based on that info, it was revoked with no notice.

 

I fully understand the new rules and totally respect them, but no other loyalty program has been introduced retroactively like this, without grandfathering in their most loyal members who may have slipped thru the cracks of the new rules. It is what it is, but randomly downgrading status after awarding it is just bad business. I know my gambling budget will be affected by the begrudged feelings, and so be it. This, combined with Harrah's newly introduced changes (made proactively, not retroactively), I will have more budget to perhaps play myself up to Seven Star, and then screw CAS - will just book thru Harrah's from now on.

 

Ps - I have always been told it was against the rules for hubby to play on my card. It's always been my points to get our cabin, hubby's either just fall off the board or we use them to book a second cabin. They do combine our points for onboard credit at the end of the sailing, though, if we are in the same cabin.

 

Robin

[PokerDave]

Just wondering, which of the Golden comps are you most upset about losing?

 

Well, when originally posted, Golden's got 2 free soda passes. This would actually save me hard $$$ on the cruise. They since dropped that for Golden and it is just for VIP, another example of things not to do in a roll-out is to post certain benefits, then change your mind...

 

I'm really more upset about the fact they now treat me as a player, but my wife as a nobody.

 

It would imply for example I get a free drink card, but she doesn't. We've always each gotten one. Other than the room comp, free drinks is a big savings when you drink a lot on a cruise which we do...

 

When initially told I was Golden and she was Hot, we would each have gotten a free meal for 2 in a specialty restaurant.

 

I would have gotten 2 spa passes as well.

 

All nits really compared to getting the free room, but having been to casinos a lot over the years, they tend to try not to let the nits get in the way of the big picture.

 

As to a previous posters comment about why whine about it here, it is partly because NCL reads these forums. They need to get feedback from their customers, and if no one says these changes are an issue, then they will assume everything is peachy...

[tel2]

Fishbait-- we have never been told it was against the rules for us both to play-on one card either in land based casinos or on ncl. In fact, our hosts at Harrahs encouraged it, which was why we started doing it in first place, and then when we started cruising we asked the ncl folks about it and they did not discourage it. Of course, we only do it when we are both there together. That is, if he goes to Vegas or ac with the guys, and I am not there, he uses his own card. But when we are at the same place together, usually playing two machines next to each other, we use mine in both machines.

[Fishbait17]

Fishbait-- we have never been told it was against the rules for us both to play-on one card either in land based casinos or on ncl. In fact, our hosts at Harrahs encouraged it, which was why we started doing it in first place, and then when we started cruising we asked the ncl folks about it and they did not discourage it. Of course, we only do it when we are both there together. That is, if he goes to Vegas or ac with the guys, and I am not there, he uses his own card. But when we are at the same place together, usually playing two machines next to each other, we use mine in both machines.

 

In truth, we used to do it too, until hubby started to earn enough on his own to qualify for his own benefits and our daughters got old enough to get heir own rooms or cabins (with hubby's benefits). But several years ago, we were sitting side-by-side on a bank of machines in Caesars during a promo event: the casino drew a random TR player to win $2000 and then everyone playing at their bank who had their card in machine won $500. You guessed it, the guy sitting on the other side of me won, I got $500, hubby got nothing but scolded by TR for playing on my card lol. So I asked about it, and they told me that technically it is against the rules, but is overlooked in most cases. They told me that the card and points could be revoked if they ever decided to enforce it, so we just didn't bother anymore (although I admit to one New Years Eve a couple years ago with hubby helping to put me over the Diamond threshold in a year where we gave most of our budget to CAS ;)) I'm the "earner" in the family, so it didn't make a whole lot of difference..

 

Robin

[Fishbait17]

Just wondering, which of the Golden comps are you most upset about losing?

 

For me it's the waiving of the 3% fee. That benefit alone could save me $300 per sailing. And it's not the money really, it's more the way I am irked paying that fee on top of the cash they are taking anyway lol.

 

Robin

[tel2]

For me it's the waiving of the 3% fee. That benefit alone could save me $300 per sailing. And it's not the money really, it's more the way I am irked paying that fee on top of the cash they are taking anyway lol.

 

Robin

 

Yeah, us too!

[hpecorari]

For me it's the waiving of the 3% fee. That benefit alone could save me $300 per sailing. And it's not the money really, it's more the way I am irked paying that fee on top of the cash they are taking anyway lol.

 

Robin

 

I have always asked my CAS host or manager to waive this for me and they always have. I remember when there wasn't a fee!

[NLH Arizona]

For me it's the waiving of the 3% fee. That benefit alone could save me $300 per sailing. And it's not the money really, it's more the way I am irked paying that fee on top of the cash they are taking anyway lol.

 

Robin

Robin, to me the waiving of the 3% fee is the only perk I would really be interested in getting (I guess I'll just have to take all my gambling budget in cash). Don't get me wrong the others are nice perks, but not essential to my enjoyment.

 

I just got an invitation to a July slot tournment on NCL (unfortunately I don't participate in tournments and I will be on a road trip at the time), which includes a free room and, not my November cruise, but my next one is comped in a penthouse suite (I didn't know I had to call CAS to get that benefit, on my next cruise I just asked for the Total Rewards discount when making the reservations-foolish me, but they did waive the single supplement so I'm still a happy camper), so no matter what tier I am, I've been treated very, very well by CAS. If I don't get a drink card or free dinner, that is okay with me.

 

Nancy

[Coastalbreezes]

I am also peeved by the new CAS program, not because of the program itself, but by the way it was introduced. Hubby and I combined earned more than 30,000 points in the calendar year 2012 on two cruises (me, about 24,000 hubby about 10,000) and yet we are Hot and Lucky respectively, because they introduced the earning period retroactively with no warning. I too was told I was Golden based on my longstanding CAS history, and after I booked a cruise based on that info, it was revoked with no notice.

 

I fully understand the new rules and totally respect them, but no other loyalty program has been introduced retroactively like this, without grandfathering in their most loyal members who may have slipped thru the cracks of the new rules. It is what it is, but randomly downgrading status after awarding it is just bad business. I know my gambling budget will be affected by the begrudged feelings, and so be it. This, combined with Harrah's newly introduced changes (made proactively, not retroactively), I will have more budget to perhaps play myself up to Seven Star, and then screw CAS - will just book thru Harrah's from now on.

 

Ps - I have always been told it was against the rules for hubby to play on my card. It's always been my points to get our cabin, hubby's either just fall off the board or we use them to book a second cabin. They do combine our points for onboard credit at the end of the sailing, though, if we are in the same cabin.

 

Robin

 

Amen, Robin. As I mentioned on another thread, I too am upset that two weeks ago, I was Golden (three cruises in 2012). After reading all the threads on the topic, I called last week and was downgraded to lucky because they were only counting the one cruise I took after April 1st of last year.

 

So all of my previously accumulated points just went "poof" into space:mad:. I agree there should have been some grandfathering in for their loyal players.

 

Tracy

[SeaShark]

Is it fair...is it unfair? Who said it has to be fair at all?

 

You have a personal stake in the issue which might make your viewpoint baised. To be fair, I'd like to see analysis/argument from somebody outside of the program....but is that going to happen? Probably not.

 

I don't know how a casino worker could answer questions for a guest when you consider that the answer they give could be correct RIGHT NOW, but with the idea that somewhere in the future a policy change could come into effect which would change that answer.

 

 

It is hard to decide what to say. IMHO, people aren't generally receptive to viewpoints which are not in their favor...even when those viewpoints are correct.

 

 

Allow me to share one observation.

 

At one point, you claimed to be among their "best customers". You even pointed out what a poor idea it is to piss off one's best customers. You also stated the following:

 

Right now me gambling accordingly is likely to mean I take the comped cruise I have coming up and not play much which is much more likely a "win" for me than a win for NCL (or I should say Caesar's)...

 

I can't speak for the CAS people. However, if I were looking at your records and I saw that you took a comped cruise and did not "play much", I certainly wouldn't rank you as one of my "best customers". If you expect them to pay attention to you, then your walking away has got to mean much more to them than it would to you. No casino anywhere is going to worry about losing a customer who does not "play much"....especially after receiving comps.

[NLH Arizona]

Allow me to share one observation.

 

At one point, you claimed to be among their "best customers". You even pointed out what a poor idea it is to piss off one's best customers. You also stated the following:

 

Right now me gambling accordingly is likely to mean I take the comped cruise I have coming up and not play much which is much more likely a "win" for me than a win for NCL (or I should say Caesar's)...

 

I can't speak for the CAS people. However, if I were looking at your records and I saw that you took a comped cruise and did not "play much", I certainly wouldn't rank you as one of my "best customers". If you expect them to pay attention to you, then your walking away has got to mean much more to them than it would to you. No casino anywhere is going to worry about losing a customer who does not "play much"....especially after receiving comps.

Amen. Sometimes people cut off their noses to spite their faces or sometimes they just threaten to see if they can get their way.

 

I look at getting any perk, is a win for me.

[PokerDave]

Amen. Sometimes people cut off their noses to spite their faces or sometimes they just threaten to see if they can get their way.

 

I look at getting any perk, is a win for me.

 

WOW!!!! How exactly did I get to be the bad guy here? I completely understand that casinos are in business to make money. Trust me that in several decades of playing in them that I understand them very well, what their motivations are, that they are businesses, fine... They certainly make money from me. I just try to minimize it. I'm not out to rip them off.

 

I also am a consumer and want to get a good return for my gambling dollar. Cutting my nose off to spite my face? Really?

 

Ship casinos have return percentages on their machines that are abysmal. They have you as a captive audience for the cruise and thus have no competition while you are on board. They are making MUCH more money per spin on the slots than land based casinos.

 

Cutting my nose off to spite my face would be playing in ship casinos and not getting something other than the return percentage of the machines...

 

Am I a bad guy if I want the few thousand bucks I'm WILLING to lose in the casino during cruising this year to last a little longer or get another $100 in perks?

 

Casinos are smart. This one screwed up. Me pointing it out in this thread is just a normal part of the give/take between player and casino. The casino always wins in the end. The ONLY question is how much...

 

But my main purpose with this post was curiosity about whether others had been specifically encouraged to get separate accounts while at the same time being assured this wouldn't be a bad thing for us. Having rules and changing them is fine. Deliberately misleading your customers isn't. That is part of the reason why when they make changes like this they typically grandfather people in generously. I'm sure the casino manager that assured me that playing separately was fine absolutely believed what he said at the time and in the past that has been the case. They need to take that into account when they change their system from being based on the combined play of my wife and I to just each of us individually...

[Fishbait17]

This whole thing got me riled up again this morning, so I just composed and sent off a rather harshly worded email to CAS about the revocation of my status. Lmao, I'll probably be banned from the casino on my upcoming Breakaway sailing..

 

I wonder what they get paid from TR for the free sailing certificates? I am currently sitting on two of these, have previously always thrown them away.. Wondering if I may save myself some hassle by concentrating more on TR earning and less on CAS..

 

Robin