The great tipping debate - revisited from a different perspective

[Karysa]

Hlitner, I think the problem is in the disparities in the world. If a person who is desperately poor in a desperately poor country takes a job at very low pay, does that make it right to pay them less, just because they should be glad for any crumb from that table? As travelers from North America, knowing what people are paid for equal work here, is it okay for us to enjoy the same level of service from people who are being paid less than their North American counterparts, just because they started out poorer? Just because someone is glad to have a job at all, does that mean it's all right to pay them as little as possible, even though others who are doing the same job elsewhere are paid better?

 

You say: "So why do people take these onboard jobs where they work ridiculous hours? The ones we have asked this question give us different answers. Most will admit that they like the pay (what a shock) and its more money then they can make working other jobs. Some will say they love being on ships and love to travel. Others say they just love working on ships, like being part of a crew, etc. Each has their own reasons but they are always competing to keep this jobs. So why is it our problem or issue as to their pay?"

 

Well, maybe they like the pay better than poor pay or no pay at all, but does that make it okay to pay them less? Maybe they say they love being on ships and being part of a crew because they don't feel safe saying: I hate being away from my family and my home, but this is the best I can get, and I know I'd better not complain because if it gets back to the boss, I'll never get another contract.

 

It's our problem and issue because if cruise lines, because of where they are registered internationally, get to pay people less than they should, those workers are actually subsidizing our cheap vacations by their low wages. And those people have to take those low wages because they accidentally got born in the wrong poor countries.

 

It could have happened to any of us, yes? Got born in a dirt-poor country, no prospects, happy to take any job for peanuts no matter how hard it is on you and the family. But does that make it right for those of us who were lucky enough to be born in better places to say, hey, it's not my problem?

 

Well said. Difficult to accept, but well said.

[SquishTheWhale]

I hold my hands up! Yes, the fare and auto tip is for good service (the min expected). I should have said excellent service. We tip our cabin steward, waiter and some bar staff, if we feel the service has been above and beyond.

 

I guess the mantra I would go by is if I WANT to tip I will! If someone goes out of their way for me then I want to tip them because they deserve it. If someone gives me average service then I feel like the auto tip justifies not tipping them extra. I just don't like the attitude that double tipping is a thing that is expected and you're cheap if you don't.

[Oppalopa]

I agree 100 percent with you

[sloopsailor]

Hlitner, I think the problem is in the disparities in the world. If a person who is desperately poor in a desperately poor country takes a job at very low pay, does that make it right to pay them less, just because they should be glad for any crumb from that table? As travelers from North America, knowing what people are paid for equal work here, is it okay for us to enjoy the same level of service from people who are being paid less than their North American counterparts, just because they started out poorer? Just because someone is glad to have a job at all, does that mean it's all right to pay them as little as possible, even though others who are doing the same job elsewhere are paid better?

 

You say: "So why do people take these onboard jobs where they work ridiculous hours? The ones we have asked this question give us different answers. Most will admit that they like the pay (what a shock) and its more money then they can make working other jobs. Some will say they love being on ships and love to travel. Others say they just love working on ships, like being part of a crew, etc. Each has their own reasons but they are always competing to keep this jobs. So why is it our problem or issue as to their pay?"

 

Well, maybe they like the pay better than poor pay or no pay at all, but does that make it okay to pay them less? Maybe they say they love being on ships and being part of a crew because they don't feel safe saying: I hate being away from my family and my home, but this is the best I can get, and I know I'd better not complain because if it gets back to the boss, I'll never get another contract.

 

It's our problem and issue because if cruise lines, because of where they are registered internationally, get to pay people less than they should, those workers are actually subsidizing our cheap vacations by their low wages. And those people have to take those low wages because they accidentally got born in the wrong poor countries.

 

It could have happened to any of us, yes? Got born in a dirt-poor country, no prospects, happy to take any job for peanuts no matter how hard it is on you and the family. But does that make it right for those of us who were lucky enough to be born in better places to say, hey, it's not my problem?

 

Your opinion would have much more weight if you only buy clothing, appliances, cars and items made only in countries that pay wages similar to what you are used to. I rather doubt you even blink an eye when buying an article of clothing made in a county that pays their residents far less than in your own. You most likely don't give a single thought to the low pay being given to the workers who assembled the device you are reading this on. And you probably don't think about how little money is paid to the people who put together virtually everything you purchase. How ironic that you have singled out cruise lines for your pious stance. Perhaps it is because you see the staff on a cruise ship and feel guilty about their wages, while the plight of the unseen workers are easy to ignore?

 

I find it hypocritical for people to complain about cruise staff pay, and then happily shop for the best prices for the cruises they take. If you have ever taken a cruise, or plan to take another, you are complicit in creating the very problem you are complaining about.

 

However, if you can honestly say you have NEVER purchased a product made by people who were paid less than you find acceptable, I will gladly extend you a public apology. Otherwise, if you want to see the source of the problem you are so upset about, look in the mirror.

[Karysa]

Your opinion would have much more weight if you only buy clothing, appliances, cars and items made only in countries that pay wages similar to what you are used to. I rather doubt you even blink an eye when buying an article of clothing made in a county that pays their residents far less than in your own. You most likely don't give a single thought to the low pay being given to the workers who assembled the device you are reading this on. And you probably don't think about how little money is paid to the people who put together virtually everything you purchase. How ironic that you have singled out cruise lines for your pious stance. Perhaps it is because you see the staff on a cruise ship and feel guilty about their wages, while the plight of the unseen workers are easy to ignore?

 

I find it hypocritical for people to complain about cruise staff pay, and then happily shop for the best prices for the cruises they take. If you have ever taken a cruise, or plan to take another, you are complicit in creating the very problem you are complaining about.

 

However, if you can honestly say you have NEVER purchased a product made by people who were paid less than you find acceptable, I will gladly extend you a public apology. Otherwise, if you want to see the source of the problem you are proselytizing, look in the mirror.

 

Do you honestly think that the crew benefits financially if we pay higher for our cruises? If not then why would it matter if we pay $2000 or $4000 for the same cruise?

[AZbeachboy]

Your opinion would have much more weight if you only buy clothing, appliances, cars and items made only in countries that pay wages similar to what you are used to. I rather doubt you even blink an eye when buying an article of clothing made in a county that pays their residents far less than in your own. You most likely don't give a single thought to the low pay being given to the workers who assembled the device you are reading this on. And you probably don't think about how little money is paid to the people who put together virtually everything you purchase. How ironic that you have singled out cruise lines for your pious stance. Perhaps it is because you see the staff on a cruise ship and feel guilty about their wages, while the plight of the unseen workers are easy to ignore?

 

I find it hypocritical for people to complain about cruise staff pay, and then happily shop for the best prices for the cruises they take. If you have ever taken a cruise, or plan to take another, you are complicit in creating the very problem you are complaining about.

 

However, if you can honestly say you have NEVER purchased a product made by people who were paid less than you find acceptable, I will gladly extend you a public apology. Otherwise, if you want to see the source of the problem you are so upset about, look in the mirror.

 

What a great comment. I have never thought about that. We talk about cheap imports all the time, but the discussion isn't about low wages, but about working conditions. The US economy is built on cheap wages overseas and we accept that. We should not, but we do.

 

The auto industry is an example. At first people bought cheap imports because they were exactly that. Now, because of public pressure we make a lot of the models here in the US. There wages are not as high as they were in Detroit, but people still make a good living. And before we get off topic on right to work states, remember one of the first plants outside of Detroit or its suburbs was in Springfield, Ill.

 

Our economy is accustomed to looking for the cheapest we can get. How many people shop at Wal Mart that treats it employees poorly just because they can get it cheaper.

[sloopsailor]

Do you honestly think that the crew benefits financially if we pay higher for our cruises? If not then why would it matter if we pay $2000 or $4000 for the same cruise?

 

If crew wages were raised, fares would also be raised. If fares were raised, more people would not be able to afford to cruise, or would think it is no longer worth the price. Fares are kept low so more people - you and me - will purchase cruises. Crew pay is kept low to keep the fares low. It is all tied together. Bottom line, crew pay is kept low because we demand low fares.

 

If everyone were willing to pay more for a cruise, crew pay could be increased. Since the first will never happen, the second will never happen as well.

[navybankerteacher]

What a great comment. I have never thought about that. We talk about cheap imports all the time, but the discussion isn't about low wages, but about working conditions. The US economy is built on cheap wages overseas and we accept that. We should not, but we do.

 

The auto industry is an example. At first people bought cheap imports because they were exactly that. Now, because of public pressure we make a lot of the models here in the US. There wages are not as high as they were in Detroit, but people still make a good living. And before we get off topic on right to work states, remember one of the first plants outside of Detroit or its suburbs was in Springfield, Ill.

 

Our economy is accustomed to looking for the cheapest we can get. How many people shop at Wal Mart that treats it employees poorly just because they can get it cheaper.

 

Very well put. Most mass market cruise passengers can only afford to cruise because the conditions in the staff home countries are so poor that the lines can pay low wages. It is the same relative wealth position which enables US (and presumably European - and, yes, even Australian) passengers on cruise ships to enjoy being able to buy inexpensive goods manufactured in low wage countries.

 

Of course the pseudo-egalitarian "pay everyone a living wage" folks ignore this.

Cruising, certainly with the level of service most cruisers currently expect, would not exist if the world were truly fair. How many posters here would want to clean other people's toilets if they

really had other options.

 

And, yes, there is a difference between the way you interact with cruise staff and with doctors and electricians. Personal service people have different options than professionals..

[Karysa]

If crew wages were raised, fares would also be raised. If fares were raised, more people would not be able to afford to cruise, or would think it is no longer worth the price. Fares are kept low so more people - you and me - will purchase cruises. Crew pay is kept low to keep the fares low. It is all tied together. Bottom line, crew pay is kept low because we demand low fares.

 

If everyone were willing to pay more for a cruise, crew pay could be increased. Since the first will never happen, the second will never happen as well.

 

The cruise company's will only pay the crew what they HAVE to. If they have people willing to work for x amount of dollars they will pay them x $'s. I don't believe that what we pay has much to do with their wages at all.

 

Some of you ccer's cruised 30 years ago, you paid more for your cruise did the crew get paid more than they do today?

[SquishTheWhale]

If crew wages were raised, fares would also be raised. If fares were raised, more people would not be able to afford to cruise, or would think it is no longer worth the price. Fares are kept low so more people - you and me - will purchase cruises. Crew pay is kept low to keep the fares low. It is all tied together. Bottom line, crew pay is kept low because we demand low fares.

 

If everyone were willing to pay more for a cruise, crew pay could be increased. Since the first will never happen, the second will never happen as well.

 

It's not really about what people are WILLING to pay- but what they can afford. If cruise prices were raised a lot then a lot of people would just not cruise and take alternate holidays that they could afford. Then the cruise line goes out of business, then the staff don't have jobs at all.

 

It would be interesting to see if a luxury cruise line which does charge a lot more pays the crew a lot more than the less expensive lines?

[Elaine5715]

Since Australia is often mentioned in the tipping debate, here is a great article http://www.newser.com/story/172110/how-aussie-mcdonalds-pays-15-an-hour.html

[cruisella deville]

I hold my hands up! Yes, the fare and auto tip is for good service (the min expected). I should have said excellent service. We tip our cabin steward, waiter and some bar staff, if we feel the service has been above and beyond.

My Husband & I have always tipped above the suggested amount. When we started "anytime dining" we were happy with the prepaid gratuity option. It actually worked out better for us. We didn't get to know our waiters as well as before. We are not rich people, but we know that the countries that most of the wait staff come from do not offer many opportunities for advancement.

I must say that we will tip "extra" for those many above & beyond services that the staff offer us.

I don't see the issue here. IF WE CAN AFFORD TO CRUISE, why should we complain about tips?

[wassup4565]

Sloopsailor, yes, I do think about these things. I'm not a hypocrite. I know that t-shirts made in Bangladesh are a bargain for me, and the people who make them get paid pennies. The thing is, I can't find any mass-produced t-shirts made in my own country. Or any furniture, or household appliances and goods, etc., etc. The people who used to make those things here are now employed at call centres or as barristas or greeters at WalMart. I didn't make it this way, and neither did you.

 

I responded to the poster who made the comment that he feels the staff on ships are happy with their wages and like to do this work that takes them away from their families for months at a time because they like to be on a ship and work as part of a crew. Therefore, he doesn't feel he has to spend a moment thinking about it.

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy their cruises, or toss and turn all night worrying about the plight of the staff. But neither should they be skinflints about tipping or fool themselves that the staff don't need and want those tips.