The great tipping debate - revisited from a different perspective

[pmacher61]

http://qz.com/113597/after-i-banned-tipping-at-my-restaurant-the-service-got-better-and-we-made-more-money/

 

Does this logic extend to cruise ships and is this also one of the reasons for the introduction of a set service charge?

No doubt flexible dining contributed to the introduction of the service charge in lieu of traditional tipping, but this rationale seems to apply as well.

[smeyer418]

as I have said many times, tipping doesn't translate into improved service. Its more of training, supervision, employees work ethic(including their satisfaction with the job), than anything else. But in general while the employer may do better when its included in the base, employees do better when they get tipped unless the employer adds a bonus based on customer satisfaction and overall profitability(profit sharing)...

[luddite]

It's all a canard.

Tips and a service are not the same thing.

[Hlitner]

The OP cites an interesting article, but what happens on most cruise ships is totally different and really stretches the meaning of the word "tipping." The mass market cruise lines simply use the "tipping" term as a way to charge higher prices while still marketing cruises as a lower cost option. When I started cruising (forty years ago), tipping on cruise lines was real. You simply gave tips to only those employees who provided direct services. We would tip our cabin steward, assistant cabin steward, waiter, assistant waiter, and sometimes a little for the Maitre D if he did something special for us. But now, most of the cruise lines use a fixed daily "tipping" rate which is automatically added to the passenger account. This "tip" is put in a pot and divided-up among the crew according to formula. Some of that money may go into the pockets of the laundry folks, bakers, folks who clean the decks, etc. It would be akin to tipping the laundry company that does the linens for a restaurant, the knife sharpener who sharpens the knives, etc. So why not be honest and simply add the extra cost to the cruise fare (like all the upscale lines)? Because then the lines cannot market at the lower costs. And the situation has even grown more absurd on some lines where they now lobby for additional tips (on top of the tips). You might see this in a bar where your check has a place for "additional gratuities" even thought they have already added 15% (or more) onto the check for "tips." As a world traveler we must admit that it was a nice feeling when we traveled in Australia, where the check was the check....there was no need to tip....and everyone seemed happy with the arrangement.

 

Hank

[pmacher61]

As a world traveler we must admit that it was a nice feeling when we traveled in Australia, where the check was the check....there was no need to tip....and everyone seemed happy with the arrangement.

Hank

Hank, I lived in AU for over a year and had the means (given the weak AU$ when I lived there) to dine out often at all levels of restaurants. Except for the very finest places my experience was that the wait service was significantly less efficient and pleasant than anywhere else in the world. Many times it bordered on surly. Waiters would easily get offended, and show it, at the least inference you were curious about the status of anything...like where's the drink I ordered or my steak is not cooked in accordance with my request or etc...

[navybankerteacher]

The OP cites an interesting article, but what happens on most cruise ships is totally different and really stretches the meaning of the word "tipping." The mass market cruise lines simply use the "tipping" term as a way to charge higher prices while still marketing cruises as a lower cost option. When I started cruising (forty years ago), tipping on cruise lines was real. You simply gave tips to only those employees who provided direct services. We would tip our cabin steward, assistant cabin steward, waiter, assistant waiter, and sometimes a little for the Maitre D if he did something special for us. But now, most of the cruise lines use a fixed daily "tipping" rate which is automatically added to the passenger account. This "tip" is put in a pot and divided-up among the crew according to formula. Some of that money may go into the pockets of the laundry folks, bakers, folks who clean the decks, etc. It would be akin to tipping the laundry company that does the linens for a restaurant, the knife sharpener who sharpens the knives, etc. So why not be honest and simply add the extra cost to the cruise fare (like all the upscale lines)? Because then the lines cannot market at the lower costs. And the situation has even grown more absurd on some lines where they now lobby for additional tips (on top of the tips). You might see this in a bar where your check has a place for "additional gratuities" even thought they have already added 15% (or more) onto the check for "tips." As a world traveler we must admit that it was a nice feeling when we traveled in Australia, where the check was the check....there was no need to tip....and everyone seemed happy with the arrangement.

 

Hank

 

A primary reason for the transition from the "real" tipping cited above to the present system of having a REMOVABLE service charge was the sad fact that, as cruising became more of a mass market kind of thing, more and more people who could not have afforded to cruise in the past started cruising. They often were only able to do so by pinching pennies: most notably by not showing up in the dining room on the last night and thereby slipping by without tipping.

 

Because a large part of the attraction of cruising is the service provided, the lines decided (rightly or wrongly) to retain the incentive pay element represented by tipping - or some replacement of tipping. That is what the REMOVABLE service charge is. Passengers who are dissatisfied with the level of service can remove the charge.

 

It is almost certain that, if the service charge were removed, and such amount were added to the basic fare, many passengers who were dissatisfied with the level of service would, in fact, demand a refund of part of their fare; so in the end nothing would have been accomplished.

[sloopsailor]

Actually, there isn't a debate. The cruise lines set the policies for gratuities, and that is that. While you call it a "debate", I call it a bunch of whiners who refuse to accept that it is the cruise line's right to set the policies on the ships they operate. :rolleyes:

[pmacher61]

A primary reason for the transition from the "real" tipping cited above to the present system of having a REMOVABLE service charge was the sad fact that, as cruising became more of a mass market kind of thing, more and more people who could not have afforded to cruise in the past started cruising. They often were only able to do so by pinching pennies: most notably by not showing up in the dining room on the last night and thereby slipping by without tipping.

 

Because a large part of the attraction of cruising is the service provided, the lines decided (rightly or wrongly) to retain the incentive pay element represented by tipping - or some replacement of tipping. That is what the REMOVABLE service charge is. Passengers who are dissatisfied with the level of service can remove the charge.

 

It is almost certain that, if the service charge were removed, and such amount were added to the basic fare, many passengers who were dissatisfied with the level of service would, in fact, demand a refund of part of their fare; so in the end nothing would have been accomplished.

I don't disagree with your explanation of one additional rationale for the change over from tipping to service charge, Hank, except now on MSC and similarly on Costa (and perhaps others) this is what I read about the service charges:

Tipping Guidelines $8-$12 (depending on region & cruise length) per adult guest, per day automatically charged to onboard account. 15% tip included on beverage orders. The service charge for children between the ages 3 and 17 will be 50% less; no service charge for children under the age of 3. All service charges are mandatory and cannot be altered.

[navybankerteacher]

I don't disagree with your explanation of one additional rationale for the change over from tipping to service charge, Hank, except now on MSC and similarly on Costa (and perhaps others) this is what I read about the service charges:

Tipping Guidelines $8-$12 (depending on region & cruise length) per adult guest, per day automatically charged to onboard account. 15% tip included on beverage orders. The service charge for children between the ages 3 and 17 will be 50% less; no service charge for children under the age of 3. All service charges are mandatory and cannot be altered.

 

If, in fact, Costa and MSC still apply "service charges" in addition to the basic fare, there are two conclusions.

 

A) Those passengers who believe that crew should be paid a "fair salary" and should not have to rely upon "service charges" or "tips", or whatever they might be called, should be happy --- they will simply be charged what the cruise costs.

 

and,

 

B) The cruise lines, however, must be seen as engaging in false advertising by publishing a fare which does not include the additional charges - which cannot be removed, and thus must be seen as part of what passengers pay. If the lines do have such non-removable service charges (presumably so they can advertise more attractive-sounding fares, since there could be no other reason), what is to prevent the lines from adding other similarly non-removable charges: say a flushing fee of $2 per passenger per day to cover the costs of the sanitary system; and a Captain's Compensation Fee - perhaps another $2 per passenger per day to pay the Captain for his maneuvering the ship.

 

The possibilities are endless once you accept the notion of non-removable additional cruise costs.

[Elaine5715]

Ahh..the fair wage argument..

The one that bounces from the dock porters who are believed to also hold another job that pays them to what they make on board is more then what they would make in their country of origin. Or the one that is used if someone thinks the tippee is paid more than them..

[John Bull]

I don't disagree with your explanation of one additional rationale for the change over from tipping to service charge, Hank, except now on MSC and similarly on Costa (and perhaps others) this is what I read about the service charges:

Tipping Guidelines $8-$12 (depending on region & cruise length) per adult guest, per day automatically charged to onboard account. 15% tip included on beverage orders. The service charge for children between the ages 3 and 17 will be 50% less; no service charge for children under the age of 3. All service charges are mandatory and cannot be altered.

 

The daily tips/grats policy on MSC is the same as most major cruise lines - auto-tip is added to the cruiser's on-board account but is discretionary, it can be amended or removed.

MSC did try making it mandatory a few years ago, but that policy lasted no more than a couple of months because it was not well-received & there were also doubts about its legality.

 

JB :)

[navybankerteacher]

The daily tips/grats policy on MSC is the same as most major cruise lines - auto-tip is added to the cruiser's on-board account but is discretionary, it can be amended or removed.

MSC did try making it mandatory a few years ago, but that policy lasted no more than a couple of months because it was not well-received & there were also doubts about its legality.

 

JB :)

 

This makes sense - a non-removable "service charge" must be seen as nothing other than false advertising - and possible fraud.

[dorisis]

i would rather pay more for the cruise upfront than have them post a service charge on my statement. The staff onboard a ship works hard and deserves a decent payscale. I find "tipping" in any form demeaning and condecending. We do not "tip" most of the other people we employ to look after us (doctors, electricians, etc.)

[papcx]

i would rather pay more for the cruise upfront than have them post a service charge on my statement. The staff onboard a ship works hard and deserves a decent payscale. I find "tipping" in any form demeaning and condecending. We do not "tip" most of the other people we employ to look after us (doctors, electricians, etc.)

 

Doctors, electricians, etc are better paid that cruise ship workers.

[iheartbda]

i would rather pay more for the cruise upfront than have them post a service charge on my statement. The staff onboard a ship works hard and deserves a decent payscale. I find "tipping" in any form demeaning and condecending. We do not "tip" most of the other people we employ to look after us (doctors, electricians, etc.)

What difference does it make if you pay more up front or have it added to your onboard account? Pay me now, or pay me later.

 

Whose pay scale should the cruise lines use as a model, the USA, the Philippines, India, Romania, etc.?

 

If tipping is demeaning and condescending, do you not tip in a restaurant, your hairdresser, porters in airports or anyone else who looks after you?

[Hlitner]

What gets my "goat" is when "do gooders" start whining about the poor underpaid, overworked cruise line crew. So here are a few facts. These folks have to work hard to just get these jobs. Some of the crew work for subcontractors and others work directly for the cruise line. The jobs are actually in great demand and nobody forces anyone to take these jobs. In fact, a majority of the crew that works on timed contracts (stewards, waiters, etc) will return on subsequent contracts. We know a few bar tenders who have been working on ships for over thirty years and they love their work. So please stop thinking of these workers as slaves.....as they are simply workers who have made a choice to take these jobs.

 

Now we can talk about waiters. We have met quite a few waiters who had previously worked in hotels in various parts of the world. They made a choice (and I emphasize the word choice) to leave their land based job and work on ships. Most have contracts that run 6-10 months (it varies by cruise line) and at the end of their contract they fly home (at cruise line expense). If they are offered another contract they can say yes, or they can say no.

 

So why do people take these onboard jobs where they work ridiculous hours? The ones we have asked this question give us different answers. Most will admit that they like the pay (what a shock) and its more money then they can make working other jobs. Some will say they love being on ships and love to travel. Others say they just love working on ships, like being part of a crew, etc. Each has their own reasons but they are always competing to keep this jobs. So why is it our problem or issue as to their pay?

 

Hank

[sloopsailor]

What gets my "goat" is when "do gooders" start whining about the poor underpaid, overworked cruise line crew.

 

What can you expect when uninformed people stick their noses in other people's business? ;)

[CaveDiving]

Doctors, electricians, etc are better paid that cruise ship workers.

 

I certainly hope so.

 

Scott & Karen

[wassup4565]

Hlitner, I think the problem is in the disparities in the world. If a person who is desperately poor in a desperately poor country takes a job at very low pay, does that make it right to pay them less, just because they should be glad for any crumb from that table? As travelers from North America, knowing what people are paid for equal work here, is it okay for us to enjoy the same level of service from people who are being paid less than their North American counterparts, just because they started out poorer? Just because someone is glad to have a job at all, does that mean it's all right to pay them as little as possible, even though others who are doing the same job elsewhere are paid better?

 

You say: "So why do people take these onboard jobs where they work ridiculous hours? The ones we have asked this question give us different answers. Most will admit that they like the pay (what a shock) and its more money then they can make working other jobs. Some will say they love being on ships and love to travel. Others say they just love working on ships, like being part of a crew, etc. Each has their own reasons but they are always competing to keep this jobs. So why is it our problem or issue as to their pay?"

 

Well, maybe they like the pay better than poor pay or no pay at all, but does that make it okay to pay them less? Maybe they say they love being on ships and being part of a crew because they don't feel safe saying: I hate being away from my family and my home, but this is the best I can get, and I know I'd better not complain because if it gets back to the boss, I'll never get another contract.

 

It's our problem and issue because if cruise lines, because of where they are registered internationally, get to pay people less than they should, those workers are actually subsidizing our cheap vacations by their low wages. And those people have to take those low wages because they accidentally got born in the wrong poor countries.

 

It could have happened to any of us, yes? Got born in a dirt-poor country, no prospects, happy to take any job for peanuts no matter how hard it is on you and the family. But does that make it right for those of us who were lucky enough to be born in better places to say, hey, it's not my problem?

[bonsai3s]

Perhaps on your next cruise, you'll have the time to talk to an assistant waiter, a waiter, a bartender, a cabin steward...look him or her in the eye and genuinely ask:

* Are you married? How many children do you have?

* When was the last time you saw your family?

* What made you decide to work on a ship?

* Are you really happy working on a ship?

* How are you treated by passengers on the ship?

* How difficult was it for you to get your job?

* What did you do before you worked on the ship?

* Do you have a day off?

* Are you going onshore?

* How long is your work shift?

* How much sleep do you get?

You may be surprised with the answers.

We order our food, we order our drinks, we find our cabins clean....but it is never really our priority to even remotely "get to know" these workers...we don't have the time, we don't care...we are on vacation. Yes, we all want to save money on everything...cheapest airfare, cheapest cruise, onboard credits, upgrades, and yes...of course those perks for loyal cruisers.

Point is: These guys work hard...week after week...cruise after cruise...contract after contract..........and when a passenger stiffs them out of a tip, it hurts...

[SquishTheWhale]

In the UK we tip if we have recieved good service- not as a required extra payment to subsidise the staff wages. I do feel bad if they are on a low wage, but I've worked jobs which were hard and badly paid and I didn't get extra tips and payments to top up my wage. It's really not my responsibility if after their wages AND the pre-set tips that the staff are underpaid- that's between the cruise line and the staff. I wouldn't remove the pre-set tips from my account, but I'm not going to tip AGAIN on top of that either.

[papcx]

In the UK we tip if we have recieved good service- not as a required extra payment to subsidise the staff wages. I do feel bad if they are on a low wage, but I've worked jobs which were hard and badly paid and I didn't get extra tips and payments to top up my wage. It's really not my responsibility if after their wages AND the pre-set tips that the staff are underpaid- that's between the cruise line and the staff. I wouldn't remove the pre-set tips from my account, but I'm not going to tip AGAIN on top of that either.

 

Even if you receive good service from an individual?

[dorisis]

Doctors, electricians, etc are better paid that cruise ship workers.

 

That's my point. Pay a decent wage and eliminate the tipping by charging a higher price to begin with.

[SquishTheWhale]

Even if you receive good service from an individual?

 

Good service, probably not- isn't that what I'm paying for in the first place with my cruise fare and the auto-tips? Excellent service or someone who went out of their way, yes then I probably would.

[papcx]

Good service, probably not- isn't that what I'm paying for in the first place with my cruise fare and the auto-tips? Excellent service or someone who went out of their way, yes then I probably would.

 

I hold my hands up! Yes, the fare and auto tip is for good service (the min expected). I should have said excellent service. We tip our cabin steward, waiter and some bar staff, if we feel the service has been above and beyond.