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explorer or breakaway


metphan714
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explorer or breakaway

 

I am planning a cruise for 2014 and being from NY I am trying to use the port closest to home. We are debating going to Bermuda, either on Explorer (we've only sailed RCL in the past) or NCL Breakaway. Any thoughts? Anyone done both? We also may be taking my 3yr old DD so the kids area is important.

 

Thanks in advance

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My personal preference would be the Explorer if Royal offers a 7 Day itinerary or the 9 night Bermuda and Caribbean on the Explorer. We did the 9 night in August and LOVED it! It was vacation time so there were many kids and they seemed to be having a ball!

I have not been on the Breakaway yet and would like to try it someday.

Edited by Arzeena
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IMO, anything would be better than the Explorer...

 

We went on her in April (we are in our late 20's) and were bored to death. It was our first Royal.. and honestly, Oasis/Allure would have to have a rockin deal in order for me to book another Royal. Honestly we were sooo bored after dinner. Seems like the only thing to do was sit and listen to live music at every. single. bar. The shows were weak. Honestly it was the least enjoyable cruise we've been on... and we actually took Holland once lol.

 

I live in Upstate NY so I know what it's like to try and save by not flying. Try the Breakaway!! If I didn't have Southwest points getting my flights for free, that's what I would be doing in December. But we are going out of Miami on the Pearl.

Edited by lild428
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IMO, anything would be better than the Explorer...

 

We went on her in April (we are in our late 20's) and were bored to death. It was our first Royal.. and honestly, Oasis/Allure would have to have a rockin deal in order for me to book another Royal. Honestly we were sooo bored after dinner. Seems like the only thing to do was sit and listen to live music at every. single. bar. The shows were weak. Honestly it was the least enjoyable cruise we've been on... and we actually took Holland once lol.

 

I live in Upstate NY so I know what it's like to try and save by not flying. Try the Breakaway!! If I didn't have Southwest points getting my flights for free, that's what I would be doing in December. But we are going out of Miami on the Pearl.

 

well. I would agree. ive done the freedom of the seas and I would have to say breakaway hands down, a lot more fun. However since you have kids then a slight nod to Explorer.

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IMO, anything would be better than the Explorer...

 

We went on her in April (we are in our late 20's) and were bored to death. It was our first Royal.. and honestly, Oasis/Allure would have to have a rockin deal in order for me to book another Royal. Honestly we were sooo bored after dinner. Seems like the only thing to do was sit and listen to live music at every. single. bar. The shows were weak. Honestly it was the least enjoyable cruise we've been on... and we actually took Holland once lol.

 

I live in Upstate NY so I know what it's like to try and save by not flying. Try the Breakaway!! If I didn't have Southwest points getting my flights for free, that's what I would be doing in December. But we are going out of Miami on the Pearl.

I have sailed the "Explorer of the Seas" twice. It is one of my favorite ships. I really don't know the complaint of live music every night in every bar. Most folks are ticked off due to live music going by the wayside. Any way I do see some folks say how while we were sailing the Explorer how they did not care for it and were bored. My wife, son and I were on the same cruise as the complainers. We were at a loss how they could be bored. Never sail on a Gem sized ship I guess (I see you have).??? Bad cruise director?

 

I would sail the Breakaway due to the fact I love the idea of the promenade deck set up. Also an extra day in Bermuda. Though the folks who could be bored on board the Explorer probably will be bored with the extra day in Bermuda (a common complaint, though not by me).

 

Breakaway too has much better selection of dininig venues. Plus!!

 

Never having sailed the Breakaway, does it feel crowded at full occupancy?

 

The Explorer never felt over crowded, even during Schools spring break.

 

Breakaway sails past Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty. Plus!

 

Explorer is docked next to the wonderful 9/11 memorial. Plus for them.

 

If the pricing for like balcony staterooms roughly the same (+/- $150 PP) I would definitly sail Breakaway.

 

If You get an unbelievable deal on Explorer? Do that.

 

I don't know how you could go wrong either way.

 

Jon

Edited by NH Cruisers
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IMO, anything would be better than the Explorer...

 

We went on her in April (we are in our late 20's) and were bored to death. It was our first Royal.. and honestly, Oasis/Allure would have to have a rockin deal in order for me to book another Royal. Honestly we were sooo bored after dinner. Seems like the only thing to do was sit and listen to live music at every. single. bar. The shows were weak. Honestly it was the least enjoyable cruise we've been on... and we actually took Holland once lol.

 

I live in Upstate NY so I know what it's like to try and save by not flying. Try the Breakaway!! If I didn't have Southwest points getting my flights for free, that's what I would be doing in December. But we are going out of Miami on the Pearl.

 

Ditto the above :)

Explorer was our one and only RCI cruise - never again.

Aside from the lack of entertainment indoors, the pool band - only time on a cruise I have plugged in my ipod to try drown out the wails. Worst - pool band ever ever ever..

I still dont get "it" when it comes to RCI -

I hated that promenade/mall thing going on - I honestly felt it has the ambiance of a shopping mall..

Obviously I am in the minority - but had a MUCH better time on a carnival ship let alone NCL...

Different horse for different courses I guess....each to their own but glad to see at least one person has the same view as I do.

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I'd try the line I'd not yet cruised.

Explorer is a nice ship for sure, but Breakaway is much newer and up-to-date. We enjoy NCL's food. Service I'm sure is similar. There are many more entertainment options on the Breakaway.

But, that said, since I've been on both, I'd go on either.

Edited by mizlorinj
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Ditto the above :)

Explorer was our one and only RCI cruise - never again.

Aside from the lack of entertainment indoors, the pool band - only time on a cruise I have plugged in my ipod to try drown out the wails. Worst - pool band ever ever ever..

I still dont get "it" when it comes to RCI -

I hated that promenade/mall thing going on - I honestly felt it has the ambiance of a shopping mall..

Obviously I am in the minority - but had a MUCH better time on a carnival ship let alone NCL...

Different horse for different courses I guess....each to their own but glad to see at least one person has the same view as I do.

 

YES! At least someone agrees with me!!

 

I don't "get" Royal... I actually made a list of issues I had on that boat while I was still on that boat.. I probably wrote it down during the evening hours when we had NOTHING to do.

 

Live music is great... but not at every. single. bar. all. night. long. It's a ploy to get you to drink. Cuz there's nothing else to do. I missed NCL's game shows, raffles, etc. and other types of activities at night. Usually on NCL, I am torn between two thing to do/see at the same time. Not on Explorer. This was a 9 day cruise from Jersey (which, btw, I HATE that terminal) and went to Bermuda, St. Thomas, St. Maarten and San Juan but 4 days at sea was WAY too long on this boat.

 

Anyways, here was the list I wrote (lol at the fact I still have it saved on my phone):

 

My time dining - what is the point? been turned away/lectured countless times. even when making a reservation we were told no, we can't eat at the time we want.

 

Shower - inconsistant temperature. would pulse between cold and scalding hot. honestly it was a miracle we didn't burn ourselves.

 

Ports - always arrived late

 

Gangway - only one. so you try to corral 3,000 people off one exit because they had some motorcycle group onboard with their bikes that were allowed to leave first. so pretty much inconveniencing 3,000 people to please 100.

 

Service - no one acts like they are here to serve you. no offense to the workers because i know they all work harder than i do, but they have a job because of me and people like me that spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars each cruise. if we didn't take cruises they would not have a job. no one went out of their way for us. everything is always on their time - no rush. i don't think i am hard to please but it wouldn't kill them to actually look like they're enjoying being there. lots of them did say that this one of royal's least desireable boats - making way for the quantum so they kind of just let this boat go.

 

Cleanliness - i swear, on every NCL cruise i've taken, the staff is always cleaning.. cleaning windows, stairs, the OUTSIDE of the boat, scrubbing walls, vacuuming, etc. on explorer, it was noticeable the lack of upkeep. buffet windows were streaked with water/salt stains. room service trays were there for hours and hours.

 

Casino - closed down at like 1:30am. my fiancé likes to play the table games and he was literally kicked out. couldn't get a beer after that time unless he wanted to go to the club. seriously? i'd find him in the casino on NCL ships at 4:30am. he'd be the last one. they'd be vacuuming around him. but the dealer was MORE than happy to be there.

 

That was just my opinion. I find Royal's atmosphere does not match us. i'll stick with NCL. And we're honestly not hard to please. we are not picky. we just don't want to be bored. that's the whole point, isn't it? i could stay home and be bored :D

 

Note: We chose this cruise in April because we never tried Royal and we live in NY so it wasn't too long of a drive to the port. Also, we got a good deal for an inside room. we booked literally 2-3 weeks before the boat left.

Edited by lild428
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YES! At least someone agrees with me!!

 

I don't "get" Royal... I actually made a list of issues I had on that boat while I was still on that boat.. I probably wrote it down during the evening hours when we had NOTHING to do.

 

Live music is great... but not at every. single. bar. all. night. long. It's a ploy to get you to drink. Cuz there's nothing else to do. I missed NCL's game shows, raffles, etc. and other types of activities at night. Usually on NCL, I am torn between two thing to do/see at the same time. Not on Explorer. This was a 9 day cruise from Jersey (which, btw, I HATE that terminal) and went to Bermuda, St. Thomas, St. Maarten and San Juan but 4 days at sea was WAY too long on this boat.

 

Anyways, here was the list I wrote (lol at the fact I still have it saved on my phone):

 

My time dining - what is the point? been turned away/lectured countless times. even when making a reservation we were told no, we can't eat at the time we want.

 

Shower - inconsistant temperature. would pulse between cold and scalding hot. honestly it was a miracle we didn't burn ourselves.

 

Ports - always arrived late

 

Gangway - only one. so you try to corral 3,000 people off one exit because they had some motorcycle group onboard with their bikes that were allowed to leave first. so pretty much inconveniencing 3,000 people to please 100.

 

Service - no one acts like they are here to serve you. no offense to the workers because i know they all work harder than i do, but they have a job because of me and people like me that spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars each cruise. if we didn't take cruises they would not have a job. no one went out of their way for us. everything is always on their time - no rush. i don't think i am hard to please but it wouldn't kill them to actually look like they're enjoying being there. lots of them did say that this one of royal's least desireable boats - making way for the quantum so they kind of just let this boat go.

 

Cleanliness - i swear, on every NCL cruise i've taken, the staff is always cleaning.. cleaning windows, stairs, the OUTSIDE of the boat, scrubbing walls, vacuuming, etc. on explorer, it was noticeable the lack of upkeep. buffet windows were streaked with water/salt stains. room service trays were there for hours and hours.

 

Casino - closed down at like 1:30am. my fiancé likes to play the table games and he was literally kicked out. couldn't get a beer after that time unless he wanted to go to the club. seriously? i'd find him in the casino on NCL ships at 4:30am. he'd be the last one. they'd be vacuuming around him. but the dealer was MORE than happy to be there.

 

That was just my opinion. I find Royal's atmosphere does not match us. i'll stick with NCL. And we're honestly not hard to please. we are not picky. we just don't want to be bored. that's the whole point, isn't it? i could stay home and be bored :D

 

Note: We chose this cruise in April because we never tried Royal and we live in NY so it wasn't too long of a drive to the port. Also, we got a good deal for an inside room. we booked literally 2-3 weeks before the boat left.

 

Yes!!! Yes!!! Yes!!!

 

As soon as I got home I grabbed my dallies from the Epic to make sure I wasnt crazy...a night it was nothing to do..how many times I gotta walk around the mall. .uuggh.. there is huge difference on the night life.

 

But they have a large pool area . Kids and strollers everywhere!!

Don't get me wrong I love me some shrek but I don't want to party with him or kung fu panda when im on my cruise. .lol they were very visable. But some like that we are the minority regarding the 'royal' experience. Lol

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

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Yes!!! Yes!!! Yes!!!

 

As soon as I got home I grabbed my dallies from the Epic to make sure I wasnt crazy...a night it was nothing to do..how many times I gotta walk around the mall. .uuggh.. there is huge difference on the night life.

 

But they have a large pool area . Kids and strollers everywhere!!

Don't get me wrong I love me some shrek but I don't want to party with him or kung fu panda when im on my cruise. .lol they were very visable. But some like that we are the minority regarding the 'royal' experience. Lol

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

 

nice to know i'm not alone!! when i say it sucked everyone (royal fans) look at me like i'm crazy.

 

seriously, how many times can i go in and out of the shops (which never had anything new) and sit outside the cafe watching some really lame parades?... or listening to.. you guessed it.. a live band.

 

we were just disappointed. i don't get the royal hype :confused: :confused:

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Thank you for all the replies, I personally love RCL and love the people watching and the open feeling to the promenade. the shows always kept me entertained. And I got more negative reviews of the Breakaway on the other boards than I got positives on this one. And since cruising is a great value it still isn't cheap, so I think I'll stick to what I know

 

Happy cruising!!!:)

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Ditto the above :)

Explorer was our one and only RCI cruise - never again.

Aside from the lack of entertainment indoors, the pool band - only time on a cruise I have plugged in my ipod to try drown out the wails. Worst - pool band ever ever ever..

I still dont get "it" when it comes to RCI -

I hated that promenade/mall thing going on - I honestly felt it has the ambiance of a shopping mall..

Obviously I am in the minority - but had a MUCH better time on a carnival ship let alone NCL...

Different horse for different courses I guess....each to their own but glad to see at least one person has the same view as I do.

Very pleased to read this. I kind of felt in the minority too but from reading this thread, I am not the only one, yeah!!! (Worst on Explorer for me: shows (worst I've ever seen on a ship), kids program, MDR and that awful indoor mall promenade. Explorer is what convinced us to stick to ncl, so I guess something good came out of it :D)

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Very pleased to read this. I kind of felt in the minority too but from reading this thread, I am not the only one, yeah!!! (Worst on Explorer for me: shows (worst I've ever seen on a ship), kids program, MDR and that awful indoor mall promenade. Explorer is what convinced us to stick to ncl, so I guess something good came out of it :D)

 

Oh my - there are three of us - does that qualify a "DisLoyal to Royal" Club hah :D

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YES! At least someone agrees with me!!

 

I don't "get" Royal... I actually made a list of issues I had on that boat while I was still on that boat.. I probably wrote it down during the evening hours when we had NOTHING to do.

 

Live music is great... but not at every. single. bar. all. night. long. It's a ploy to get you to drink. Cuz there's nothing else to do. I missed NCL's game shows, raffles, etc. and other types of activities at night. Usually on NCL, I am torn between two thing to do/see at the same time. Not on Explorer. This was a 9 day cruise from Jersey (which, btw, I HATE that terminal) and went to Bermuda, St. Thomas, St. Maarten and San Juan but 4 days at sea was WAY too long on this boat.

 

Anyways, here was the list I wrote (lol at the fact I still have it saved on my phone):

 

My time dining - what is the point? been turned away/lectured countless times. even when making a reservation we were told no, we can't eat at the time we want.

 

Shower - inconsistant temperature. would pulse between cold and scalding hot. honestly it was a miracle we didn't burn ourselves.

 

Ports - always arrived late

 

Gangway - only one. so you try to corral 3,000 people off one exit because they had some motorcycle group onboard with their bikes that were allowed to leave first. so pretty much inconveniencing 3,000 people to please 100.

 

Service - no one acts like they are here to serve you. no offense to the workers because i know they all work harder than i do, but they have a job because of me and people like me that spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars each cruise. if we didn't take cruises they would not have a job. no one went out of their way for us. everything is always on their time - no rush. i don't think i am hard to please but it wouldn't kill them to actually look like they're enjoying being there. lots of them did say that this one of royal's least desireable boats - making way for the quantum so they kind of just let this boat go.

 

Cleanliness - i swear, on every NCL cruise i've taken, the staff is always cleaning.. cleaning windows, stairs, the OUTSIDE of the boat, scrubbing walls, vacuuming, etc. on explorer, it was noticeable the lack of upkeep. buffet windows were streaked with water/salt stains. room service trays were there for hours and hours.

 

Casino - closed down at like 1:30am. my fiancé likes to play the table games and he was literally kicked out. couldn't get a beer after that time unless he wanted to go to the club. seriously? i'd find him in the casino on NCL ships at 4:30am. he'd be the last one. they'd be vacuuming around him. but the dealer was MORE than happy to be there.

 

That was just my opinion. I find Royal's atmosphere does not match us. i'll stick with NCL. And we're honestly not hard to please. we are not picky. we just don't want to be bored. that's the whole point, isn't it? i could stay home and be bored :D

 

Note: We chose this cruise in April because we never tried Royal and we live in NY so it wasn't too long of a drive to the port. Also, we got a good deal for an inside room. we booked literally 2-3 weeks before the boat left.

 

We just did a 4 day cruise in Independence of the Seas and I can agree with most of this.

 

The cleanliness on IOTS was excellent - we did see crew cleaning (e.g. steam cleaning handrails).

 

We had problems with My Time Dining - NCL have that off pat - RCCL do not seem to get it.

 

The atmosphere on board just was not there. That abomination of a promenade was the main focus of the ship - the canned music was ear-splittingly loud (awful 'Bang-Bang' music). If I want to go to a shopping mall I can do that at home.

 

I hadn't really thought of the gangway issue until you mentioned it. When moving 4000+ pax you need at least 2 gangways.

 

The Casino was far too cramped and had a rubbish selection of slots (IMHO). Bar service was terribly slow - 1 girl was working her buns off trying to keep up. We saved a fortune on our bar bill simply because we could not get served quickly.

 

I guess we are also members of the "Disloyal to Royal" club.

Edited by SteveH2508
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Thank you for all the replies, I personally love RCL and love the people watching and the open feeling to the promenade. the shows always kept me entertained. And I got more negative reviews of the Breakaway on the other boards than I got positives on this one. And since cruising is a great value it still isn't cheap, so I think I'll stick to what I know

 

Happy cruising!!!:)

I was suprized to see so many negatives over the Explorer. That ship hooked me to cruising! As to a mall like atmospher for the promenade? I guess some can take it that way. The shops look more like they would in a open street, and the ceiling changes from night to day. Promenade Cafe is a great place to people watch. Most NCL ships? Now their shopping areas are mall like.

 

That said I loved Explorer and expect to sail he again. I too love NCL and am very happy I tried them (especially after the bashing they get from EVERY other cruiseline board on CC)

 

Jon

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Thank you for all the replies, I personally love RCL and love the people watching and the open feeling to the promenade. the shows always kept me entertained. And I got more negative reviews of the Breakaway on the other boards than I got positives on this one. And since cruising is a great value it still isn't cheap, so I think I'll stick to what I know

 

Happy cruising!!!:)

 

At the end of the day its your money! Enjoy your cruise:D

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nice to know i'm not alone!! when i say it sucked everyone (royal fans) look at me like i'm crazy.

 

seriously, how many times can i go in and out of the shops (which never had anything new) and sit outside the cafe watching some really lame parades?... or listening to.. you guessed it.. a live band.

 

we were just disappointed. i don't get the royal hype :confused: :confused:

 

Exactly, and to make it worse it was a Michael Kors store:eek:. I LOVE Michael Kors. You know Michael does NOT run sales..so yea...i knew i couldnt afford it the first time i went in..so it just pissed me everytime i passed it...LOL If you going to put a store out there like that at least give me a shoe store (DSW) or a Coach Outlet! LOL

 

My personal opinion.(you know opinions are like butt holes everyones got one:p) I think that class of Royal ships are gimmicky. Smoke and Mirrors. That didnt impress 'me'. However, the folks that i traveled with simply loved it. They did have a lot bigger pools space and i really like there jogging track.:D

 

Now the jewel class ships i could probably get down with. Hope to try that soon.

 

Overall for me i would stick with NCL...but when im travel with family I do them all.:rolleyes:

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Exactly, and to make it worse it was a Michael Kors store:eek:. I LOVE Michael Kors. You know Michael does NOT run sales..so yea...i knew i couldnt afford it the first time i went in..so it just pissed me everytime i passed it...LOL If you going to put a store out there like that at least give me a shoe store (DSW) or a Coach Outlet! LOL

 

My personal opinion.(you know opinions are like butt holes everyones got one:p) I think that class of Royal ships are gimmicky. Smoke and Mirrors. That didnt impress 'me'. However, the folks that i traveled with simply loved it. They did have a lot bigger pools space and i really like there jogging track.:D

 

Now the jewel class ships i could probably get down with. Hope to try that soon.

 

Overall for me i would stick with NCL...but when im travel with family I do them all.:rolleyes:

 

haha you made me laugh this morning.

 

explorer's shops were SO weak. half the time, they had sections of them roped off because there was nothing in the cases to buy. i remember all my ncl cruises as having a huge selection. and they'd constantly have new things.

 

i agree... i am NOT impressed by royal. at all. and they act as if i should be. i don't like that.

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We just did a 4 day cruise in Independence of the Seas and I can agree with most of this.

 

The cleanliness on IOTS was excellent - we did see crew cleaning (e.g. steam cleaning handrails).

 

We had problems with My Time Dining - NCL have that off pat - RCCL do not seem to get it.

 

The atmosphere on board just was not there. That abomination of a promenade was the main focus of the ship - the canned music was ear-splittingly loud (awful 'Bang-Bang' music). If I want to go to a shopping mall I can do that at home.

 

I hadn't really thought of the gangway issue until you mentioned it. When moving 4000+ pax you need at least 2 gangways.

 

The Casino was far too cramped and had a rubbish selection of slots (IMHO). Bar service was terribly slow - 1 girl was working her buns off trying to keep up. We saved a fortune on our bar bill simply because we could not get served quickly.

 

I guess we are also members of the "Disloyal to Royal" club.

 

again, glad to see i'm not alone lol

 

interesting your opinion on IOTS.. i figured a bigger boat that's out of florida would be better than explorer but i guess not lol

 

i wonder if oasis/allure have the same type of problems? although with my experience on the explorer, i doubt i'll book another royal.

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Ditto the above :)

Explorer was our one and only RCI cruise - never again.

Aside from the lack of entertainment indoors, the pool band - only time on a cruise I have plugged in my ipod to try drown out the wails. Worst - pool band ever ever ever..

I still dont get "it" when it comes to RCI -

I hated that promenade/mall thing going on - I honestly felt it has the ambiance of a shopping mall..

Obviously I am in the minority - but had a MUCH better time on a carnival ship let alone NCL...

Different horse for different courses I guess....each to their own but glad to see at least one person has the same view as I do.

Explorer to Bermuda was our only RCI cruise as well (although, I didn't say 'never'. I am giving RCI another shot this coming Sept in Europe).

To be fair, our Explorer cruise was back in 2008. Things may have changed since then. I was not WOWED and to be honest, highly disappointed, especially after all the hype I read here from the Loyal Royals. To us, NCL is hnads down better....but obviously not everyone has the same taste or looks for the same things in a cruise.

 

 

 

Right now, if given the choice, I wouldn't hesitate to choose Norwegian over RCI. I may reconsider my opinion after I sail Royal again next summer, but NCL has set the bar mighty high.

 

Oh my - there are three of us - does that qualify a "DisLoyal to Royal" Club hah

make it 4.

Edited by halos
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again, glad to see i'm not alone lol

 

interesting your opinion on IOTS.. i figured a bigger boat that's out of florida would be better than explorer but i guess not lol

 

i wonder if oasis/allure have the same type of problems? although with my experience on the explorer, i doubt i'll book another royal.

 

Our cruise was out of Southampton. There was a theory going round amongst the RCCL regulars, that IOTS had 'fallen under the radar' whilst in Europe and that standards had slipped. Even they were saying that the sevice was not a patch on what it was before. Maybe things will buck up when it gets back to US?

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You have to try the Breakaway~~it was great and I saw a lot for children to do~~I went to Bermuda again for the fourth time in October~~I also went on the Explorer in 2010 to Bermuda~~it was nice also, not as much action as the "Breakaway"~~I mean dance parties, etc. Good luck sailing~~I am looking for a cruise for 2014 but do not want to do Bermuda again for a while!:)

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You have to try the Breakaway~~it was great and I saw a lot for children to do~~I went to Bermuda again for the fourth time in October~~I also went on the Explorer in 2010 to Bermuda~~it was nice also, not as much action as the "Breakaway"~~I mean dance parties, etc. Good luck sailing~~I am looking for a cruise for 2014 but do not want to do Bermuda again for a while!:)

 

How about the 10 day Explorer Caribbean cruise in March. No Bermuda on this one---D.R., St. Thomas, St. Martin, St Kitts, and 5 sea days.

 

I love sea days to enjoy the ship, and watch the sea.

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I have been on several cruise lines and can honestly say that NCL is my favorite. Cannot put my finger on what it is exactly it might be the whole vibe and after being on the Allure which was nice, if someone would give me a free cruise on either NCL, RCL, CCL or Disney, I would choose NCL. It sounds nutty but I don't care love NCL. Of course if this was the RCL thread I would probably be condemned!!

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