Oceania Refused My Service Dog.

[Noxequifans]

Having owned several dogs, may I suggest that all dogs are not created equal. Some will do what they want where they want. Even well trained ones will have an off day. The shipboard environment can overstimulate animals and they may behave unpredictably.

[Pet Nit Noy]

ADA does not require that any training organization be involved in training one's service animal. Anyone, including the disabled individual him/herself or their 3rd cousin, can do the training (or claim they did!), and unless they happen to be veterinarians, they would not be able to imbed a chip. So the answer to your wonder is "of course not," neither a cruise company nor anyone else would be within their rights to deny entry to an animal without a chip.

 

For what it is worth, I am disabled and I think the failure of ADA to insist on much better control over an animal owner being able to prove the animal really is a trained service animal is terrible. But the law at present is what it is, whether it makes sense or not.

 

Then, we're in agreement. I was not encouraging the cruise lines to take steps which are currently against the law.

 

This topic came up in the context of trainers for one of the blind dog services writing about people abusing the legal right of the disabled to bring service animals on board. I was making the point that the training organizations should be doing more than simply complaining.

 

Countries with previously draconian entry requirements for animals are easing those regulations through the use of technology. I was taking that development and hypothesizing that some day this same technology might be useful in solving the dual problems of limiting abuse and establishing bona fides.

 

After all, all travelers now understand that they must own a passport to travel. There may come a day when animals need to travel with the equivalent of a passport. Just as there are different types of US passport (e.g. regular, diplomatic), each one with slightly different rights and privileges, there may be different types of passports for animals with different status (e.g. a service animal, a family pet.)

Edited March 22, 2014 by Pet Nit Noy

[Benita]

We were on a RCCL cruise and a woman brought along Ralphie, her service dog, in a baby stroller. She brought him to meals in the MDR, where he sat on her lap and ate off her plate - not to appealing for those around her. She brought him to the theater, but unfortunately, he kept barking, so she did leave the show lounges with him. The next day, she left him in the cabin and went to the show alone, but the dog kept barking in the cabin, annoying all around him. Multiple complaints were made, but the cruise director said as long as she had a doctors note that she needed a service animal, RCCL had no choice but to accommodate her and the dog.

Unfortunately, the definition of service animal seems to be broadening and anybody who has a relative who is a doctor and willing to write a note seems to be allowed in public places - malls, restaurants, cruise ships, etc. Being in the vision field, I am quite accustomed to "seeing eye dogs" who sit by their owner, don't bark except to warn the owner of a danger and certainly do not crawl on a tabletop eating . As more and more people, however, have decided they want to cruise with their pets, in the guise of calling them service animals, we will be seeing more and more of this.

I realize anxious people are soothed by their pets, but having a barking, misbehaving pet on a cruise ship or any other closed quarters is just wrong and insulting to the people for whom service dogs provide their eyes.

[waterbug123]

We were on a RCCL cruise and a woman brought along Ralphie, her service dog, in a baby stroller....The next day, she left him in the cabin and went to the show alone, but the dog kept barking in the cabin, annoying all around him. Multiple complaints were made, but the cruise director said as long as she had a doctors note that she needed a service animal, RCCL had no choice but to accommodate her and the dog.

 

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that even with ADA laws, if a service animal is being disruptive, its owner can be asked to take the dog and leave. In this case, it would seem that that owner could be required to return to the cabin or use a muzzle or something to quiet the dog. Again, this goes back to the abuse issue. My understanding is that legitimate service dogs are properly trained and generally speaking, do not behave like this woman's dog.

[terry&mike]

Jane Fonda has recently come under attack for similar behavior. She takes her small white dog everywhere she goes, (restaurants, shops, etc), and has said it is a service dog to help her with anxiety. In an interview she did say that the dog wasn't medically sanctioned as so, but that she needs the dog with her to keep her calm.

[Benita]

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that even with ADA laws, if a service animal is being disruptive, its owner can be asked to take the dog and leave. In this case, it would seem that that owner could be required to return to the cabin or use a muzzle or something to quiet the dog. Again, this goes back to the abuse issue. My understanding is that legitimate service dogs are properly trained and generally speaking, do not behave like this woman's dog.

 

My point exactly. The definition of service animals and how they are certified as such needs to be addressed so that only legitimate ones be allowed on the ship. Real service animals do not behave as this dog did and it is a shame to either allow the ships to become a free for all or deny those with real service animals entry.

[Shining Clem]

To clear up one previously stated bit of information:

Putting a micro-chip in an animal has nothing to do with it's service skills. Anyone can have their vet put one in their dog, cat, monkey, horse, etc.

 

Microchips are intended as proof of identity, ownership, and location, not training. Our two previous dogs had microchips. The veternarians put them in the backs of animals with a special hollow needle. The microchips are about the size of a grain of rice. When read by a special transponder waved above the top of the animal's back, a number comes up. That number is then matched with the records the owner paid a service to maintain & match. (AKC runs such a registry, and the animal does not have to be a pure-bred - Heinz 57 dogs are also done) The numbers are usually also listed to & by the vet, so there is another path to track the animal.

 

This is used by animal shelters when they take in an animal to try to locate the owner, labs which use animals for research :( , police in the case of theft, the military & police which have canine units, training organizations such as dogs for the blind & deaf, and just ordinary folks who want to up the chances of their animal being returned to them.

 

Those 'sh*t happens' times when they might be separated in the time of emergencies (Katrina comes to mind). Quite often responsible dog breeders will microchip their puppies before they go to a new home, to aid in finding the dog, should the animal fall into the hands of an irresponsible owner.

 

When we got Clem (cocker spaniel) from the town dog catcher, who had picked him up at a strip plaza, he did not have a reader. One of the first things we did when we took Clem to a vet, was to have his back "read". He was such a sweetie, and we did not want to keep a dog, whose previous owner might have been searching frantically for him. The second thing we did was to have a microchip placed with us as the owners. (Part of the $300. bill :eek: for that first appointment!)

 

The town clerk told us we would not believe the times people came in demanding that their dog be returned to them, 6 months after they had "lost" it.

 

Micro-chipping has nothing to do with training, and everything to do with increasing the chances your animal will return to you if lost or stolen.

[Hawaiidan]

In some of the foreign ports even though cruise line may allow the dog onboard the port may NOT allow it ashore

 

People with service animals need to check all the details before they book a cruise

 

Of those places you cant bring an animal on shore in any port here...... and its a "state"

[LHT28]

Of those places you cant bring an animal on shore in any port here...... and its a "state"

 

Have no idea what you are on about ...

 

Foreign countries are obligated by USA ADA rules

[LHT28]

Have no idea what you are on about ...

 

Foreign countries are obligated by USA ADA rules

 

should be NOT OBLIGATED

[Pet Nit Noy]

To clear up one previously stated bit of information:

Putting a micro-chip in an animal has nothing to do with it's service skills. Anyone can have their vet put one in their dog, cat, monkey, horse, etc. ...

Micro-chipping has nothing to do with training, and everything to do with increasing the chances your animal will return to you if lost or stolen.

 

Whoops! Seems like you missed a crucial sentence in the post you're complaining about. For clarification, here it is again: "microchips ... hypothesizing that some day this same technology might be useful in solving the dual problems of limiting abuse and establishing bona fides."

[Pet Nit Noy]

Hawaii is on of those places you cant bring an animal on shore in any port here...... and its a "state"

 

Here's a link to the State of Hawaii Animal Industry Division web site stating that there are very specific conditions under which a service animal may be brought into Hawaii:

 

http://hdoa.hawaii.gov/ai/aqs/guide-service-dogs/

 

However, even an animal that meets the qualifications (e.g. trained by a licensed organization, up-to-date vaccination records, identification microchip implanted, documentation of treatment for ticks within 14 days of arrival, and more) probably would not be admitted to Hawaii if arriving by cruise ship. The web site states that the Honolulu International Airport is the only port of entry for cats and dogs. For service animals, the inspection will take place within the airport terminal between 7:00 AM and 4:00 PM with at least 7 days advance notice.

[YoHoHo]

Deleted

Edited March 23, 2014 by YoHoHo

[waterbug123]

Microchips are intended as proof of identity, ownership, and location, not training.

 

You're missing the point. The poster who mentioned chips was simply hypothesizing that SOMEDAY chips COULD have information added that would indicate if the animal was a "certified" service dog. (That of course, would first require that there BE a national certification program.)

[Hawaiidan]

Here's a link to the State of Hawaii Animal Industry Division web site stating that there are very specific conditions under which a service animal may be brought into Hawaii:

 

http://hdoa.hawaii.gov/ai/aqs/guide-service-dogs/

 

However, even an animal that meets the qualifications (e.g. trained by a licensed organization, up-to-date vaccination records, identification microchip implanted, documentation of treatment for ticks within 14 days of arrival, and more) probably would not be admitted to Hawaii if arriving by cruise ship. The web site states that the Honolulu International Airport is the only port of entry for cats and dogs. For service animals, the inspection will take place within the airport terminal between 7:00 AM and 4:00 PM with at least 7 days advance notice.

 

 

This is timely....Yesterday the state law makers are mulling a new Hawaii law that puts serious limits on service animals in the State... includes having state licensed medical people as the only ones who can issue a "service" animal permit. Submitting certification from other sources will not be

accepted thus...

 

It must be, as proposed, Hawaii medical board approved animal certification.

ALL claimed animals that are service animals must , and their owners, be examined by these medical inspectors boards.... Fines will be levied for violation to the owner and the non-compliant certifier.

[Shining Clem]

Replying to Waterbug123 & PetNitNoy-

 

I see your points. Also some posts went on to speak of microchipping as part of a training ID system which was already in effect. I'm a bit cynical that some wouldn't fraudulently find a way around this (sorry to say!).

 

I do hope my post explains what micro-chips can presently do for animals. I suspect that many people are not aware of the benefits of microchipping their pets, and hope my post informed them of the process and what the benefits are in helping an animal get back to it's family when lost or stolen. The more the general population knows about & uses this service, the better it is for the animals.

 

BTW, I have a picture taken of my aunt on a trans-Atlantic ship holding her cat - probably in the 1920's :D I know she and her husband went to Switzerland on that trip, probably from the Boston area. Now I wish I had asked her the date & ship before she died, 13 yrs ago, at 104.

[billie5]

.... anybody who has a relative who is a doctor and willing to write a note seems to be allowed in public places - malls, restaurants, cruise ships, etc.....

 

I simply do not understand why such a simple matter is so difficult to understand for a lot of individuals.

 

A business in the U.S. can not insist on a doctor's note, or any other official "certification." Of course, if it makes the disabled person feel better, then they can do as they please. And there are plenty of internet sites which will take your money for legally worthless documentation. But the certificates are pretty ............

[billie5]

Here's a link to the State of Hawaii Animal Industry Division web site stating that there are very specific conditions under which a service animal may be brought into Hawaii:

 

http://hdoa.hawaii.gov/ai/aqs/guide-service-dogs/

 

However, even an animal that meets the qualifications (e.g. trained by a licensed organization, up-to-date vaccination records, identification microchip implanted, documentation of treatment for ticks within 14 days of arrival, and more) probably would not be admitted to Hawaii if arriving by cruise ship. The web site states that the Honolulu International Airport is the only port of entry for cats and dogs. For service animals, the inspection will take place within the airport terminal between 7:00 AM and 4:00 PM with at least 7 days advance notice.

The site you quote is certainly interesting, but you misunderstand it. As a service animal, NO DOCUMENTATION IS REQUIRED. However, with reference only to health issues documentation and ID chip are required.

 

Your "e.g." referring to training by licensed organization is simply totally wrong.

 

This is copied from ADA regulations published in the Federal Register in 2010 by the Dept of Justice. You can read the entire document on the DoJ website.

 

Under the ADA, State and local governments, businesses, and nonprofit organizations that serve the public generally must allow service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas of the facility where the public is normally allowed to go.

 

and

 

When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

 

It also does indeed allow for the expulsion of a misbehaving service animal.

 

I do agree that the given Hawaii website is difficult to read. Although it does not say so on the page you are directed to, this inspection program is only for AIRPORTS. I can assure you that the sea ports which accept international arrivals will have inspection arranged.

Edited April 4, 2014 by billie5

[billie5]

This is timely....Yesterday the state law makers are mulling a new Hawaii law that puts serious limits on service animals in the State... includes having state licensed medical people as the only ones who can issue a "service" animal permit. Submitting certification from other sources will not be

accepted thus...

 

It must be, as proposed, Hawaii medical board approved animal certification.

ALL claimed animals that are service animals must , and their owners, be examined by these medical inspectors boards.... Fines will be levied for violation to the owner and the non-compliant certifier.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Medical inspectors at the airports already do the service animal inspections, but do not require any proof of service status other than verbal. Healthwise, they demand a great deal more.

 

No state in the U.S. demands any written documentation of service training. It would be a clear violation of ADA. However, I have no doubt that there are state legislators who would make such proposals. Heck, I also wish ADA did require real documentation.

[Pet Nit Noy]

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. Medical inspectors at the airports already do the service animal inspections, but do not require any proof of service status other than verbal. Healthwise, they demand a great deal more.

 

No state in the U.S. demands any written documentation of service training. It would be a clear violation of ADA. However, I have no doubt that there are state legislators who would make such proposals. Heck, I also wish ADA did require real documentation.

 

Can you please square your claim that no state in the US demands any written documentation of service training with the following quote taken from the Hawaii web site:

 

http://hdoa.hawaii.gov/ai/aqs/guide-service-dogs/

 

 

"GUIDE DOGS AND SERVICE DOGS THAT MEET THE FOLLOWING DEFINITIONS CAN COME INTO HAWAII WITHOUT QUARANTINE PROVIDED THEY FOLLOW THE STEPS OUTLINED BELOW:

“Guide dog” means any dog individually trained by a licensed guide dog trainer for guiding a blind person by means of a harness attached to the dog and a rigid handle grasped by the person." (My emphasis added.)

 

How will the individual provide proof of the bona fides of the guide dog trainer?

 

As for the claim that the DoJ regulations prohibit some of the requirements that the Hawaiian web site appears to require all I can say is that it wouldn't be the first time a state passed laws which were at odds with Federal law. These laws stand until they are challenged in court.

[billie5]

Can you please square your claim that no state in the US demands any written documentation of service training with the following quote taken from the Hawaii web site:

 

http://hdoa.hawaii.gov/ai/aqs/guide-service-dogs/

 

 

"GUIDE DOGS AND SERVICE DOGS THAT MEET THE FOLLOWING DEFINITIONS CAN COME INTO HAWAII WITHOUT QUARANTINE PROVIDED THEY FOLLOW THE STEPS OUTLINED BELOW:

“Guide dog” means any dog individually trained by a licensed guide dog trainer for guiding a blind person by means of a harness attached to the dog and a rigid handle grasped by the person." (My emphasis added.)

 

How will the individual provide proof of the bona fides of the guide dog trainer?

 

As for the claim that the DoJ regulations prohibit some of the requirements that the Hawaiian web site appears to require all I can say is that it wouldn't be the first time a state passed laws which were at odds with Federal law. These laws stand until they are challenged in court.

Just read the sentence which follows on that website:

 

“Service dog” means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. The work or tasks performed by a service dog must be directly related to the individual’s disability. The work or tasks include but are not limited to: assisting individuals who are blind or have low vision with navigation and other tasks, ....

 

Pretty crazy, isn't it? Call your dog a guide dog, and it falls under state law. Call it a service animal and it falls under ADA. Just like the (very) old Groucho Marx show You Bet Your Life, where a chicken dropped down with money in its mouth if you used a certain word. I ran into exactly that through two appeals of an SSI ruling denying my son full SSI, until I accidentally used the right word (which incidentally was the word "borrowed"). Of course those federal sob's knew exactly what I meant - just didn't use the right word. But I got even with them; I went on a lecture tour where I explained to other parents of handicapped children how to avoid that trap, especially important for parents not as persistent as I.

 

I do, however, completely agree with your last paragraph.

Edited April 4, 2014 by billie5

[Hawaiidan]

As for the claim that the DoJ regulations prohibit some of the requirements that the Hawaiian web site appears to require all I can say is that it wouldn't be the first time a state passed laws which were at odds with Federal law. These laws stand until they are challenged in court.

 

This happens all the time...Washington Colorado legalizing dope.. Same Sex Marriage, . Immigration, ...and the list goes on... Hawaii too is going to require, it appears, that the service animal be certified by a Hawaiian source.

 

Hawaii does not have inspectors in the ports..... I live in a port that sees 2 to 5 ships a week... and drive by the pier. Only at Airports by arrangement $$$$