Service Charges on NCL

[Shacky316]

So when I go in June, I'll use the

$4/person/day for cabin attendant,

$7/person/day for dining room servers/assistant servers

and $1/person/day for head waiter (totaling $12/person/day) that Disney recommends.

 

If I receive the same services I received when I went on the Breakaway in January (mainly the MDR staff was slow and rude), that will be the basis for whether or not I will use my 'discretion'. I'd be more than happy to divert gratuities to the cabin staff or other staff if deserved.

 

Is that so bad?

[nana541]

Decided to stay far away from this one!

Edited April 11, 2014 by nana541

[Beaver1975]

You just don't get it do you? The $12 pppd service charge is DISCRETIONARY. Fact ! If the terms and conditions of booking said that the service charge was MANDATORY, then a different story. I will also not be walking around with a fist full of dollars. Euros maybe !

 

Completely incorrect!!

 

The DSC is a Daily Service Charge. If you have a service problem that NCL cannot resolve you can adjust the Daily Service Charge at your discretion. It has NEVER been called a Discretionary Service Charge.

 

It simply amazes me how something can mis-stated so many times that it somehow becomes a fact.

[meltingmoments]

Saying that you asked:

 

Offences of bribing another personE+W+S+N.I.

This sectionnoteType=Explanatory Notes has no associated

(1)A person (“P”) is guilty of an offence if either of the following cases applies.

(2)Case 1 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

(3)Case 2 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P knows or believes that the acceptance of the advantage would itself constitute the improper performance of a relevant function or activity.

(4)In case 1 it does not matter whether the person to whom the advantage is offered, promised or given is the same person as the person who is to perform, or has performed, the function or activity concerned.

(5)In cases 1 and 2 it does not matter whether the advantage is offered, promised or given by P directly or through a third party.

 

 

Well I know I'm tired but that makes no sense to me at all! :(

 

 

 

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

 

 

The DSC surely isn't intended to induce someone to * perform improperly*?

[hpecorari]

The current UK Bribery Act is very specific about offering bribes up front to try and influence service. It is certainly not recommended to pre-pay any discretionary charge.[/quote

 

How is the DSC *a bribe*? :confused:

 

 

It's not. This is what the UK Bribery Act 2010 states:

 

General bribery offences

 

The crime of bribery is described as occurring when a person offers, gives or promises to give a "financial or other advantage" to another individual in exchange for "improperly" performing a "relevant function or activity".

 

Offence of being bribed, which is defined as requesting, accepting or agreeing to accept such an advantage, in exchange for improperly performing such a function or activity.

 

So.....unless Mr. UK here is planning on paying an NCL crew/employee to 'improperly perform'............

 

The bribe would be paid as a request or exchange to 'improperly perform'.

 

Bottom Line....I'm not stereotyping but he's from the UK and won't ever truly understand or accept the US way of service charges and tipping as they are so different in the UK than it is here.

 

::As a side note: In Las Vegas there are many restaurants that I've been to that have a note-card in the check folder which states something to the effect of: "To our Non-American friends - it is customary to tip your server 15-20% on your bill. We thank you for understanding the normal tipping procedures here in the USA."

 

Harriet

Edited April 11, 2014 by hpecorari

[hpecorari]

Saying that you asked:

 

Offences of bribing another personE+W+S+N.I.

This sectionnoteType=Explanatory Notes has no associated

(1)A person (“P”) is guilty of an offence if either of the following cases applies.

(2)Case 1 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

(3)Case 2 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P knows or believes that the acceptance of the advantage would itself constitute the improper performance of a relevant function or activity.

(4)In case 1 it does not matter whether the person to whom the advantage is offered, promised or given is the same person as the person who is to perform, or has performed, the function or activity concerned.

(5)In cases 1 and 2 it does not matter whether the advantage is offered, promised or given by P directly or through a third party.

 

 

LOL - you cut and pasted ONLY what you wanted. What about the part that said, "in exchange for "improperly" performing a "relevant function or activity"

and

"in exchange for improperly performing such a function or activity"

 

If you're going to post something post the ENTIRE thing!

 

I also have no problem with lowering or removing the DSC if they improperly perform.

 

My problem is, however, that I believe you're just removing it regardless if their performance was good or improper.

 

 

Harriet

Edited April 11, 2014 by hpecorari

[meltingmoments]

The current UK Bribery Act is very specific about offering bribes up front to try and influence service. It is certainly not recommended to pre-pay any discretionary charge.[/quote

 

 

 

 

It's not. This is what the UK Bribery Act 2010 states:

 

General bribery offences

 

The crime of bribery is described as occurring when a person offers, gives or promises to give a "financial or other advantage" to another individual in exchange for "improperly" performing a "relevant function or activity".

 

Offence of being bribed, which is defined as requesting, accepting or agreeing to accept such an advantage, in exchange for improperly performing such a function or activity.

 

So.....unless Mr. UK here is planning on paying an NCL crew/employee to 'improperly perform'............

 

The bribe would be paid as a request or exchange to 'improperly perform'.

 

Bottom Line....I'm not stereotyping but he's from the UK and won't ever truly understand or accept the US way of service charges and tipping as they are so different in the UK than it is here.

 

::As a side note: In Las Vegas there are many restaurants that I've been to that have a note-card in the check folder which states something to the effect of: "To our Non-American friends - it is customary to tip your server 15-20% on your bill. We thank you for understanding the normal tipping procedures here in the USA."

 

Harriet

 

Harriet, thank-you for that! As I said, I know I'm tired.......it's been a LONG half-term and school just finished today, but I truly could not see that the DSC could be construed as a bribe! :confused:

 

I'm from the UK myself but I'm of the mind that * when in Rome*........

 

I DID originally struggle to make head or tail of the DSC but CC helped and a bit of research of my own and I'm all good with it! :)

[Ewoodspark]

LOL - you cut and pasted ONLY what you wanted. If you're going to post something post the ENTIRE thing

 

 

I actually thought that it may be a bit lengthy for a lot of readers but if you wish to educate yourself about bribes, please read :

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/contents.

[hpecorari]

I actually thought that it may be a bit lengthy for a lot of readers but if you wish to educate yourself about bribes, please read :

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/contents.

 

I've already read it and posted about it here.

 

However, I read it from Wickipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_Act_2010

 

However, you are correct. You can't 'bribe' someone to do their job improperly.

 

Did you read the entire thing? If you didn't check my last post or two as I highlighted the part for you that you didn't post yourself.

 

Harriet

Edited April 11, 2014 by hpecorari

[sparks1093]

Saying that you asked:

 

Offences of bribing another personE+W+S+N.I.

This sectionnoteType=Explanatory Notes has no associated

(1)A person (“P”) is guilty of an offence if either of the following cases applies.

(2)Case 1 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

(3)Case 2 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P knows or believes that the acceptance of the advantage would itself constitute the improper performance of a relevant function or activity.

(4)In case 1 it does not matter whether the person to whom the advantage is offered, promised or given is the same person as the person who is to perform, or has performed, the function or activity concerned.

(5)In cases 1 and 2 it does not matter whether the advantage is offered, promised or given by P directly or through a third party.

 

I think the emphasis is on the "improper", as long as the person is performing their proper job function the act does not apply.

[sparks1093]

So when I go in June, I'll use the

$4/person/day for cabin attendant,

$7/person/day for dining room servers/assistant servers

and $1/person/day for head waiter (totaling $12/person/day) that Disney recommends.

 

If I receive the same services I received when I went on the Breakaway in January (mainly the MDR staff was slow and rude), that will be the basis for whether or not I will use my 'discretion'. I'd be more than happy to divert gratuities to the cabin staff or other staff if deserved.

 

Is that so bad?

 

I see nothing wrong with your standard.

[SteveH2508]

Saying that you asked:

 

Offences of bribing another personE+W+S+N.I.

This sectionnoteType=Explanatory Notes has no associated

(1)A person (“P”) is guilty of an offence if either of the following cases applies.

(2)Case 1 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

(3)Case 2 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P knows or believes that the acceptance of the advantage would itself constitute the improper performance of a relevant function or activity.

(4)In case 1 it does not matter whether the person to whom the advantage is offered, promised or given is the same person as the person who is to perform, or has performed, the function or activity concerned.

(5)In cases 1 and 2 it does not matter whether the advantage is offered, promised or given by P directly or through a third party.

 

 

As others have already pointed out - the key word in what you copied and pasted without reading and considering it's meaning is improper.

 

As a fellow Brit I would advise: when you are in a hole - stop digging.

 

This 'bribery' argument has been trotted out before and has been comprehensively proved to be pile of cr*p.

 

Different folks have different strokes on this whole tipping thing (personally I think it is a feudal, out-of-date, unfair and stupid system), BUT, I choose to sail with NCL so I play by their rules - pay the DSC - tip extra to any who I feel are deserving and get on with my vacation/life.

 

Getting into semantic, spurious legal arguments about when and how much to give to whomever is really not a good use of your time.

 

Keep the DSC in place; treat the staff well; fill out Vacation Hero cards when deserved (and tip a bit extra if you wish) and enjoy your holiday.

 

Let others get their panties in a bunch about whether tips motivate staff to provide better service or not - in UK we have moved on from that (job security is the biggest motivator in this current economic climate BTW).

Edited April 11, 2014 by SteveH2508

[hpecorari]

I actually thought that it may be a bit lengthy for a lot of readers but if you wish to educate yourself about bribes, please read :

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/contents.

 

From the above website you posted:

 

Offences of bribing another person

 

(1)A person (“P”) is guilty of an offence if either of the following cases applies.

 

(2)Case 1 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

(3)Case 2 is where—

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P knows or believes that the acceptance of the advantage would itself constitute the improper performance of a relevant function or activity.

(4)In case 1 it does not matter whether the person to whom the advantage is offered, promised or given is the same person as the person who is to perform, or has performed, the function or activity concerned.

(5)In cases 1 and 2 it does not matter whether the advantage is offered, promised or given by P directly or through a third party.

 

I don't believe anyone wants improper service/performance

 

That is why NCL wants you to report it, give them time to fix it, and if not fixed THEN you may adjust your DSC.

 

Harriet

[meltingmoments]

I actually thought that it may be a bit lengthy for a lot of readers but if you wish to educate yourself about bribes, please read :

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/contents.

 

I've already read it too.........and it didn't seem to me to pertain to the DSC as you can't * bribe *somebody to do their job improperly :confused:

[Tutankhamen]

Here is a quick summary. Let me know what I missed or have wrong.

 

Service charge confusion:

 

Some here believe that the service charge is more or less mandatory.

Some here believe that the service charge is optional.

Some here believe that the service charge is expected but not required.

Some here believe that the service charge is the same as tipping cash, so they remove it and tip only those who directly service them.

Some here believe that the service charge is the tip, so they don'y tip above and beyond.

Some believe that the service charge is not a tip, and so they tip for "above and beyond" service.

 

Service charge as a system:

 

1) Some here believe the system is good, leave alone.

2) Some here believe the system is goo, leave it as is, but don't allow people to remove it.

3) Some here believe add it to the cost of the cruise and put the charge on the reservation.

 

 

Pretty much sums it up?

 

The following just opinion:

I would argue that option 1 does not change anything and so the confusion will remain. Option 2 and 3 would alleviate some of the confusion if nothing else.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Tutankhamen

[kylenyc]

It is a service charge. It is discretionary service charge by the very nature that NCL passenger contracts in the US and the UK refer to it as adjustable at the passenger's discretion.

 

1. The service charge in the UK is not part of the total cost of the holiday

2. It is a discretionary service charge and can be adjusted by the passenger.

 

NCL UK booking conditions 2014-2015

"We are confident that you will enjoy your Freestyle Cruising experience and that our entire crew will provide you with the standard of service for which we are known. A $12 discretionary service charge will be automatically added per guest per day (for guests three years and older) to your shipboard account for all staterooms unless pre-paid as set out below. This charge will be shared among those staff members, including restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and other behind-the-scenes staff who provide services that enhance your overall cruise experience. "

Edited April 12, 2014 by kylenyc

[kylenyc]

Here is a quick summary. Let me know what I missed or have wrong.

 

Service charge confusion:

 

Some here believe that the service charge is more or less mandatory.

Some here believe that the service charge is optional.

Some here believe that the service charge is expected but not required.

Some here believe that the service charge is the same as tipping cash, so they remove it and tip only those who directly service them.

Some here believe that the service charge is the tip, so they don'y tip above and beyond.

Some believe that the service charge is not a tip, and so they tip for "above and beyond" service.

 

Service charge as a system:

 

1) Some here believe leave as it is.

2) Some here believe leave it as is, but don't allow people to remove it.

3) Some here believe add it to the cost of the cruise and put the charge on the reservation.

 

 

Pretty much sums it up?

 

The following just opinion:

I would argue that option 1 does not change anything and so the confusion will remain. Option 2 and 3 would alleviate some of the confusion if nothing else.

 

The service charge is clearly optional and up to the passengers discretion.

 

It is up to the passenger to decide based on their individual value system whether to keep it in place, adjust it, remove it, add to it and tip extra, or rely solely on cash tipping.

 

All the arguing in the world (in general and I don't mean by you) doesn't change the fact and I don't understand why people attempt to say it is anything but adjustable and discretionary except for the sole purpose of getting us to a norm of 20 pages for a tipping thread (almost there) :p

Edited April 12, 2014 by kylenyc

[Tutankhamen]

The service charge is clearly optional and up to the passengers discretion.

 

It is up to the passenger to decide based on their individual value system whether to keep it in place, adjust it, remove it, or add to it (tip extra).

 

All the arguing in the world (in general and I don't mean by you) doesn't change the fact and I don't understand why people attempt to say it is anything but adjustable and discretionary except for the sole purpose of getting us to a norm of 20 pages for a tipping thread (almost there) :p

 

And any second someone will come along and say " the service charge is clearly expected and required unless a passenger has issues that can't be resolved." Kind of like buying a bag of chips with a freshness guarantee. It is mandatory to pay for the chips. But if they do not meet your satisfaction, you can get your money back. This is how I think NCL see's the fee.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Tutankhamen

[MyNameIsJack]

I have stated my position and no matter what others say, this will remain my position. At the same time respect the at that we are entitled to think how we choose about this. remember that just because we do not agree on the subject does not indicate that either of us is right or wrong.

[newbe dave]

The service charge is clearly optional and up to the passengers discretion.

 

It is up to the passenger to decide based on their individual value system whether to keep it in place, adjust it, remove it, add to it and tip extra, or rely solely on cash tipping.

 

All the arguing in the world (in general and I don't mean by you) doesn't change the fact and I don't understand why people attempt to say it is anything but adjustable and discretionary except for the sole purpose of getting us to a norm of 20 pages for a tipping thread (almost there) :p

 

I agree that the service charge is optional. Also, covering your mouth when you sneeze is optional. Actually hitting the toilet when you pee is optional. Not yelling cuss words when you walk in public is optional. Not picking your nose and flinging the output is optional.

 

My point is just because something may be optional does not justify actions. Tacky is still tacky and cheap is still cheap.

[Zackster]

You just don't get it do you? The $12 pppd service charge is DISCRETIONARY. Fact ! If the terms and conditions of booking said that the service charge was MANDATORY, then a different story. I will also not be walking around with a fist full of dollars. Euros maybe !

 

Every cruise line I've been on there's always been a line up of people reversing service charges/tips. Some are being frugal while some are from cultures that don't tip and see the DSC as a discretionary tip.

 

I've got family members on the Sun right now and they said they watched over 50 people line up patiently and reverse their DSC within 30 minutes. Who knows how many do this over the entire cruise.

 

There were no questions asked, they weren't made to feel bad. Is it just this ship? I wonder if certain cruise lines have a higher rate of passengers that don't tip leading NCL to "innovate" and call is a Daily Service Charge instead of tip.

 

As long as NCL doesn't enforce or clarify directly with passengers it's pointless arguing any further. We are all set in our ways.

[sparks1093]

And any second someone will come along and say " the service charge is clearly expected and required unless a passenger has issues that can't be resolved." Kind of like buying a bag of chips with a freshness guarantee. It is mandatory to pay for the chips. But if they do not meet your satisfaction, you can get your money back. This is how I think NCL see's the fee.

 

Someone is going to come on here and say that because that is the way it works. Your analogy with the chips is spot on and one of the best that I've seen.

 

What everyone is overlooking is that the service charge is the income for many of the crew (whether we agree with the system or not that is the way it is set up). I personally have no issue if someone removes the service charge and tips in cash, or if they reduce the charge because of a service issue. The only thing that I believe is wrong is removing the service charge and leaving absolutely nothing.

 

How many people here would eat at a restaurant (here in the US) and leave absolutely nothing at the end if there was nothing wrong with the service?

[Out to sea!]

The service charge is clearly optional and up to the passengers discretion.

 

It is up to the passenger to decide based on their individual value system whether to keep it in place, adjust it, remove it, add to it and tip extra, or rely solely on cash tipping.

 

All the arguing in the world (in general and I don't mean by you) doesn't change the fact and I don't understand why people attempt to say it is anything but adjustable and discretionary except for the sole purpose of getting us to a norm of 20 pages for a tipping thread (almost there) :p

 

No where on the US site (and I could care less what the UK site says.......we're not in the UK and UK law has no meaning in the US) does it say the DSC is "optional". It does say that it can be adjusted if a service issue was not taken care of to your satisfaction. Adjusted (for service related issue only) does not mean removed. There is no allowance (as per the site) for the removal of the DSC to pay in cash instead.

 

Arguing may not change what people do but most of the arguing occurs when some people try to interpret (ie. twist) the wording on the site to meet their desires (or rationalization). Read the words and interpret their meaning correctly and there would be no arguments. Your completely incorrect statement in bold is why there are arguments, not whether or not you remove the DSC.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Out to sea!

[Casino Comp Chick]

Well I know I'm tired but that makes no sense to me at all! :(

 

 

 

(a)P offers, promises or gives a financial or other advantage to another person, and

(b)P intends the advantage—

(i)to induce a person to perform improperly a relevant function or activity, or

(ii)to reward a person for the improper performance of such a function or activity.

 

 

The DSC surely isn't intended to induce someone to * perform improperly*?

 

All it means is I am to cheap to tip people and I am trying to justify being a miser

[meltingmoments]

all it means is i am to cheap to tip people and i am trying to justify being a miser