DIAMOND - Drinks package cancelled for Dec Australian cruise

[Aus Traveller]

Diamond doesn't operate under Princess AU though. And buy the same law you posted, there should be no reduced prices in the Elite Lounge, no free mini bar set up in rooms. Does that happen on the Australian Ships?

Elite passengers travelling on the Australian-based ships get the mini bar set-up in their cabins. On the Sun, Dawn and Sea there is no Elite lounge so no reduced prices on drinks.

 

I still don't believe the withdrawing of the drinks package has anything to do with Australian law. Once the ship leaves Australian ports, Australian laws don't apply. I think it is all about economics. The drinks package costs US$49 per day. Particularly on P&O ships, a lot of passengers spend more on their drinks bill than they paid to go on the cruise, i.e. well in excess of $100 a day. Currently these people are a real money-earner for the cruiseline, but if they could drink as much as they wanted for $49 a day, they would be costing the company money. (Just my thoughts!):)

[gooch47]

Everyone was joking on our Australian circumnavigation cruise a few years back because the ship had to restock their wine cellar after only one stop because it had run dry.

[RDC1]

Elite passengers travelling on the Australian-based ships get the mini bar set-up in their cabins. On the Sun, Dawn and Sea there is no Elite lounge so no reduced prices on drinks.

 

I still don't believe the withdrawing of the drinks package has anything to do with Australian law. Once the ship leaves Australian ports, Australian laws don't apply. I think it is all about economics. The drinks package costs US$49 per day. Particularly on P&O ships, a lot of passengers spend more on their drinks bill than they paid to go on the cruise, i.e. well in excess of $100 a day. Currently these people are a real money-earner for the cruiseline, but if they could drink as much as they wanted for $49 a day, they would be costing the company money. (Just my thoughts!):)

 

There are a number of examples of where a ships route determine changes in behavior, even outside of port. For example in Europe ships charge VAT on all sales, even outside of ports, if all of the stops are in the EU. They do not do that if the route has atleast one stop outside of the EU.

 

Notice that the quote posted earlier specifically says that the package does not apply to ships that are doing closed loop tours out of Australian ports. That implies that there may be some validity to the Australian law point. Note that they do sell them on one way trips to/from New Zealand and other similar cruises.

[Aus Traveller]

There are a number of examples of where a ships route determine changes in behavior, even outside of port. For example in Europe ships charge VAT on all sales, even outside of ports, if all of the stops are in the EU. They do not do that if the route has atleast one stop outside of the EU.

 

Notice that the quote posted earlier specifically says that the package does not apply to ships that are doing closed loop tours out of Australian ports. That implies that there may be some validity to the Australian law point. Note that they do sell them on one way trips to/from New Zealand and other similar cruises.

The issue of charging VAT while within the EU is understandable. For many purposes, while travelling within the EU, it is treated as if it is one country.

 

Does Princess sell the drink packages on the Sun, Sea and Dawn on one-way cruises to/from NZ? Firstly, I am not aware that these ships do any one-way cruises to/from NZ. Secondly, I don't think these ships ever have the drinks packages.

 

I still stick by my opinion on why Princess doesn't sell drinks packages on cruises out of Australia - they would make a loss with the amount some people would drink. Please note the post by gooch47 about restocking the wine cellar. :)

[RDC1]

The issue of charging VAT while within the EU is understandable. For many purposes, while travelling within the EU, it is treated as if it is one country.

 

Does Princess sell the drink packages on the Sun, Sea and Dawn on one-way cruises to/from NZ? Firstly, I am not aware that these ships do any one-way cruises to/from NZ. Secondly, I don't think these ships ever have the drinks packages.

 

I still stick by my opinion on why Princess doesn't sell drinks packages on cruises out of Australia - they would make a loss with the amount some people would drink. Please note the post by gooch47 about restocking the wine cellar. :)

 

Yes they do. Just put in the ships name and see all of the different cruises they go on. I just checked Sea Princess and it has several one way cruises that start in Australia and end up some where outside of Australia.

 

So the test of the language from Princess Package does not apply to Sun Princess, Sea Princess and Dawn Princess or Diamond Princess and Golden Princess voyages departing from and returning to Australia would be to see if it is available on those cruises. Should be easy enough for one to test.

[Aus Traveller]

Yes they do. Just put in the ships name and see all of the different cruises they go on. I just checked Sea Princess and it has several one way cruises that start in Australia and end up some where outside of Australia.

Your previous post referred to the Sun/Dawn/Sea Princess doing one-way trips to New Zealand. I cannot find any on the calendars for the next couple of years and I can't recall any in the last year or two.

 

Sea Princess only has a couple of one-way cruises that start in Australia and end up some where outside of Australia. They are Fremantle to Singapore and return. The Sun Princess and the Dawn Princess also have couple of cruises with this itinerary on their calendar.

 

There are a couple of longer cruises (RTW or circle Pacific) that are available in segments, but the cruise leaves from Australia & returns to Australia. :)

[RDC1]

Your previous post referred to the Sun/Dawn/Sea Princess doing one-way trips to New Zealand. I cannot find any on the calendars for the next couple of years and I can't recall any in the last year or two.

 

Sea Princess only has a couple of one-way cruises that start in Australia and end up some where outside of Australia. They are Fremantle to Singapore and return. The Sun Princess and the Dawn Princess also have couple of cruises with this itinerary on their calendar.

 

There are a couple of longer cruises (RTW or circle Pacific) that are available in segments, but the cruise leaves from Australia & returns to Australia. :)

 

The issue is the cruise, not the final return. If they sell a cruise and the end is somewhere other than Australia the drink package should be offered according to the quoted language. It might not be available to passengers making the full loop.

 

I used Auckland as an example. I checked the Sea Princess. She has one to Auckland via tahiti. She also has one way cruises to Singapore. There are also some that start outside Australia and end in Australia, including a 4 day from Auckland.

 

Here are some specific dates

Sun Princess Nov 24, 2015 12 day Fremantle to Singapore

Feb 23, 2016 12 day Fremantle to Singapore

Mar 24, 2016 12 day Fremantle to Singapore

Aug 9, 2016 25 day San Francisco to Sydney

Jun 21, 2016 50 day Sydney to San Francisco

 

If it is available on the cruise sold as one way and is not available for someone that books the loop then one can be pretty sure it is a regulation driven. Of course the cruise line computers are smart enough to put the two haves together if someone tries booking each half separately. So the test is to see if one can get the package if they only book a 12 day Fremantle to Singapore.

Edited December 16, 2014 by RDC1

[RDC1]

I took a look at laws dealing with licenses for establishments serving alcohol in Australia. I would expect that since Princess has a corporate entity there that they would need the appropriate licenses to purchase and serve alcohol in accordance with Australian law for at least some portions of cruises originating or ending in Australia. The one area that might be in conflict with a fixed price program is:

 

General Code of Practice

Part 2, Section 9(1)

(1) A licensee must not promote, advertise

or conduct their operations in a way that

tends to encourage the rapid or excessive

consumption of liquor or that discourages

a responsible attitude to the consumption

of liquor.

[HelenSteady]

Then Princess would simply up its price for the package on cruises out of Australia... and still not have to worry about the competition. The higher price - to make up for no auto-gratuities on Australia-based ships - doesn't seem to affect them.

 

It may be -

because Princess has an Australian subsidiary with ships based in Australia, the company is subject to different regulations than the 'foreign' RCI and X.

I was able to pre-buy the buckets of beer and bottle of scotch in October 2013 on the Sea Princess on a sailing out of Sydney to Tasmania so the policy has changed since then. They haven't just changed the policy as I was told I couldn't buy about 1 month ago. And as to Australian laws, if they are subject to International Law once they are out of local waters then this is a load of rubbish.

[RDC1]

I think that I have found something telling. The Australian Government has conducted an "INQUIRY INTO THE ARRANGEMENTS SURROUNDING CRIMES COMMITTED AT SEA". Chapter 4 goes heavily into the issue of alcohol consumption. There are a number of quotes from executives from Carnival owned lines, including:

 

Ms Ann Sherry, CEO of Carnival Australia, considers that the cruising industry has undergone a ‘transformation’, including in relation to alcohol service:

The transformation has involved a significant number of changes, so there is now zero tolerance of excessive behaviour on board any Carnival Australia cruise ships. This policy has seen the introduction of a series of significant changes. We have now strict policies and procedures to ensure responsible service and consumption of alcohol and no bar staff are on incentives to sell alcohol, nor do any of our ships in this region have unlimited drinking packages.8

 

8 Ms Ann Sherry, Carnival Australia, Committee Hansard, 15 February 2013,

 

 

The entire report can be found at:

 

 

http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=spla/crimes%20at%20sea/report.htm

 

I suspect the government investigation into safety incidents is part of the decision to not provide unlimited drinking packages in that area.

Edited December 16, 2014 by RDC1

[RDC1]

The investigation by the Australian government appears to be after the death of a passenger on P&O Australia. Apparently after that event first P&O and then the other Carnival owned lines made changes in their alcohol service policy, including the termination of packages for cruises in the area of Australia.

 

Note that the testimony quoted in the report was in 2013.

 

So it appears that it might have been a voluntary move by Carnival owned lines as a result of the incident and the investigation and recommendations of the Australian government. Note the references in the government response section to the P&O reforms.

Edited December 16, 2014 by RDC1

[Cruise Junky]

I think that I have found something telling. The Australian Government has conducted an "INQUIRY INTO THE ARRANGEMENTS SURROUNDING CRIMES COMMITTED AT SEA". Chapter 4 goes heavily into the issue of alcohol consumption. There are a number of quotes from executives from Carnival owned lines, including:

 

Ms Ann Sherry, CEO of Carnival Australia, considers that the cruising industry has undergone a ‘transformation’, including in relation to alcohol service:

The transformation has involved a significant number of changes, so there is now zero tolerance of excessive behaviour on board any Carnival Australia cruise ships. This policy has seen the introduction of a series of significant changes. We have now strict policies and procedures to ensure responsible service and consumption of alcohol and no bar staff are on incentives to sell alcohol, nor do any of our ships in this region have unlimited drinking packages.8

 

8 Ms Ann Sherry, Carnival Australia, Committee Hansard, 15 February 2013,

 

 

The entire report can be found at:

 

 

http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=spla/crimes%20at%20sea/report.htm

 

I suspect the government investigation into safety incidents is part of the decision to not provide unlimited drinking packages in that area.

 

Very interesting. I fully appreciate Carnival AU and Princess AU abiding by this but I don't understand Diamond. She does still offer incentive to staff to sell drinks (15% gratuities). And Carnival owns all inclusive lines that sail AU. Oh well, it's a good mystery and I'm happy to be on Celebrity with a free package

[Aus Traveller]

The sad incident that was the impetus for this enquiry happened 12 years ago. The death referred to resulted from the voluntary taking of drugs by a 42 year old woman. Her family has continued to lobby for stiff controls of the cruise industry.

 

Since then P&O have had a very strong security presence on its ships and exercise what is called Responsible Service of Alcohol.:)

[Bill B]

This is interesting -

[Aus Traveller]

I watched the video. We started cruising 33 years ago (total now 53 cruises) and have never seen behaviour such as shown on the video. I wonder if it was maybe a New Year's Eve cruise, but that isn't an excuse for what happened. I note that it was filmed on the Pacific Star that was sold early in March, 2008. It may have been filmed much earlier.

 

Since the Diane Brimble incident 12 years ago where she died from an overdose of alcohol and drugs (according to the Coroner), security and life on P&O ships has totally changed. Alcohol is not served to drunk passengers. Passengers are warned if the stewards notice that they are intoxicated, then their cruisecard is blocked. If a friend buys them alcohol, both are put off the ship at the next port.

 

There is zero tolerance for drug use by passengers or crew. Crew are absolutely not permitted in passenger cabins and passengers are not permitted in crew cabins.

[Cruise Junky]

I watched the video. We started cruising 33 years ago (total now 53 cruises) and have never seen behaviour such as shown on the video. I wonder if it was maybe a New Year's Eve cruise, but that isn't an excuse for what happened. I note that it was filmed on the Pacific Star that was sold early in March, 2008. It may have been filmed much earlier.

 

Since the Diane Brimble incident 12 years ago where she died from an overdose of alcohol and drugs (according to the Coroner), security and life on P&O ships has totally changed. Alcohol is not served to drunk passengers. Passengers are warned if the stewards notice that they are intoxicated, then their cruisecard is blocked. If a friend buys them alcohol, both are put off the ship at the next port.

 

There is zero tolerance for drug use by passengers or crew. Crew are absolutely not permitted in passenger cabins and passengers are not permitted in crew cabins.

 

 

And yet P&O Are stil a line that let's passengers take on alcohol. At least in the UK, I have no idea about the Australian arm.

[RDC1]

Very interesting. I fully appreciate Carnival AU and Princess AU abiding by this but I don't understand Diamond. She does still offer incentive to staff to sell drinks (15% gratuities). And Carnival owns all inclusive lines that sail AU. Oh well, it's a good mystery and I'm happy to be on Celebrity with a free package

 

I believe, based upon reading this report, that Diamond abides by the same rules as the other ships when sailing out of Australia.

 

I noticed in the report that both Carnival and Royal Caribbean executives made the same comment about not offering incentive. If the cruise lines have gone to a pooling system for gratuities, then then I expect they can say that there is not an incentive, since the impact on a worker payout from the pool would not be materially impacted by how many drinks they sell.

 

It looks like the components of Carnival that are most impacted are those that have a permanent corporate presence in Australia. I can see a number of differences between Carnival, Princess and P&O and the much smaller all inclusive lines. The actions seem to be voluntary compliance with the Australian general code of practice, in prevent potential government action, by the main stream lines. I would expect that the much smaller, much more expensive all inclusive lines do not have the visibility or the footprint that the mainstream lines do.

[the wombat]

I was able to pre-buy the buckets of beer and bottle of scotch in October 2013 on the Sea Princess on a sailing out of Sydney to Tasmania so the policy has changed since then. They haven't just changed the policy as I was told I couldn't buy about 1 month ago. And as to Australian laws, if they are subject to International Law once they are out of local waters then this is a load of rubbish.

 

One needs to have a clearer understanding of just what "international law" entails. There is no "international law" pertaining to consumption of alcohol, sales of alcohol and pricing etc: "international law" pertains to subjects like extradition, liaison between police services, conduct of warfare, treatment of prisoners of war, safety of life at sea, and this is based on bi/multilateral treaties between nations rather than statute.

 

You are still able to pre-buy alcohol packages, as we were able to on Dawn last year. These are not deeply discounted or sales promotions and are perfectly legal under the various states' legislation and Responsible Service of Alcohol policies.

 

A more pressing matter for cruise lines that operate out of Australia was the Dianne Brimble case in 2002 on Pacific Sky where it was held that excess alcohol consumption on the part of the deceased and the alleged offenders was a contributing factor in her death. On informal note, the company would be ****scared of this sort of thing happening again. Liability, liability, liability. Much more important than profit, profit, profit...

 

As for the issue of "beginning and end" of the cruise, one example in a previous post was a cruise from Sydney to San Francisco. The ship quoted in the previous post is Sun Princess (Cruised on Sun to SEA and NZ). Sun is based in Australia and attached to Princess Cruises' Australian subsidiary, which comes under control of Carnival plc, NOT Princess Cruiselines PLC (Paragraph 1, http://www.princess.com/legal/passage_contract/index.jsp, retrieved 17 Dec 2014- note that "Carnival plc" is NOT "Carnival Cruiselines") which is a separate company). Therefore, Australian legislation in relation to the service of alcohol will prevail- which would in turn allow 18-20 year old US citizens to purchase and consume alcohol. Conversely, ships based primarily in the US deny 18-20 year old Australian citizens alcohol and access to the casino. Please also note that at Paragraph 33, it specifically states that Carnival plc operates within the legal jurisdiction of New South Wales as far as the cruise contract is concerned. This implies that it is bound by other New South Wales statutes as applicable ( Paragraph 1, http://www.princess.com/legal/ passage_contract/index.jsp, retrieved 17 December 2014).

 

Diamond is a slightly different story, as has been already mentioned. She is subject to Australian law when sailing out of Australia, regardless of where she ends up. This is highlighted in the current iteration of the cruise contract that Sea, Sun and Dawn, as well as Diamond when sailing out of Australia have a minimum age for service of alcohol and gambling of 18. (Paragraph 22, http://www.princess.com/legal/passage_contract/index.jsp, retrieved 17 Dec 2014).

 

I hope you have all found this to be an informative post!

 

(Note: I am NOT a legal practitioner of any sort, but I AM a security consultant who has worked previously in the hospitality field)

[Loonbeam]

I spoke to a friend at Princess and pretty much got the same answer, just with less detail.

 

The short version I got was the Diamond was following NSW laws and those laws and unlimited drinks packages were found to be not compatible.

 

One needs to have a clearer understanding of just what "international law" entails. There is no "international law" pertaining to consumption of alcohol, sales of alcohol and pricing etc: "international law" pertains to subjects like extradition, liaison between police services, conduct of warfare, treatment of prisoners of war, safety of life at sea, and this is based on bi/multilateral treaties between nations rather than statute.

 

You are still able to pre-buy alcohol packages, as we were able to on Dawn last year. These are not deeply discounted or sales promotions and are perfectly legal under the various states' legislation and Responsible Service of Alcohol policies.

 

A more pressing matter for cruise lines that operate out of Australia was the Dianne Brimble case in 2002 on Pacific Sky where it was held that excess alcohol consumption on the part of the deceased and the alleged offenders was a contributing factor in her death. On informal note, the company would be ****scared of this sort of thing happening again. Liability, liability, liability. Much more important than profit, profit, profit...

 

As for the issue of "beginning and end" of the cruise, one example in a previous post was a cruise from Sydney to San Francisco. The ship quoted in the previous post is Sun Princess (Cruised on Sun to SEA and NZ). Sun is based in Australia and attached to Princess Cruises' Australian subsidiary, which comes under control of Carnival plc, NOT Princess Cruiselines PLC (Paragraph 1, http://www.princess.com/legal/passage_contract/index.jsp, retrieved 17 Dec 2014- note that "Carnival plc" is NOT "Carnival Cruiselines") which is a separate company). Therefore, Australian legislation in relation to the service of alcohol will prevail- which would in turn allow 18-20 year old US citizens to purchase and consume alcohol. Conversely, ships based primarily in the US deny 18-20 year old Australian citizens alcohol and access to the casino. Please also note that at Paragraph 33, it specifically states that Carnival plc operates within the legal jurisdiction of New South Wales as far as the cruise contract is concerned. This implies that it is bound by other New South Wales statutes as applicable ( Paragraph 1, http://www.princess.com/legal/ passage_contract/index.jsp, retrieved 17 December 2014).

 

Diamond is a slightly different story, as has been already mentioned. She is subject to Australian law when sailing out of Australia, regardless of where she ends up. This is highlighted in the current iteration of the cruise contract that Sea, Sun and Dawn, as well as Diamond when sailing out of Australia have a minimum age for service of alcohol and gambling of 18. (Paragraph 22, http://www.princess.com/legal/passage_contract/index.jsp, retrieved 17 Dec 2014).

 

I hope you have all found this to be an informative post!

 

(Note: I am NOT a legal practitioner of any sort, but I AM a security consultant who has worked previously in the hospitality field)

[the wombat]

I spoke to a friend at Princess and pretty much got the same answer, just with less detail.

 

The short version I got was the Diamond was following NSW laws and those laws and unlimited drinks packages were found to be not compatible.

 

 

Sounds like a reasonable and credible source to me! :) Not having such "inside information", I had to resort to research!:p

[By The Bay]

And yet P&O Are stil a line that let's passengers take on alcohol. At least in the UK, I have no idea about the Australian arm.

P&O OZ does not allow any alcohol to be taken on-board. Receantly they tighten the rules even further due to people trying to get around the system. Now no bottled water, even with cap seal broken. Only 12 cans of soft drink (Pop Soda?) and not in a package but loose in baggage. Carnival Spirit and Legend do not allow any alcohol to be taken on board in OZ.

[Aus Traveller]

P&O OZ does not allow any alcohol to be taken on-board.

This is correct and has been the case for many years. Our first P&O cruise was well over ten years ago and I am pretty sure we couldn't take any wine or other alcohol on board. The same policy has applied on our cruises in the following years.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Aus Traveller

[chrysti_scallywag]

I was on the Diamond in October on the final Japanese cruise of the season before it headed south to eventually do Australian cruises.

Talking to a bartender at Crooners he told me they discontinue the drinks package on Australian cruises because of the high level of abuse- people getting free drinks for others.

He said it happens on all cruises but especially bad on the Australian ones and it becomes too hard to police adequately so not worth doing.

 

The All Inclusive drinks package has never been available on Australia based cruises, so I don't know how the bartender could have witnessed this supposed abuse.

 

Sounds like Princess just hasn't updated its website with the names of the new Australia deployed ships.

 

Thanks for all your replies guys. The fact they can't properly police it makes sense. I still don't know why they would offer it, allow us to pay for it and then take it away 3 weeks prior. Felt ripped off. And no communication about it either - we only found out through rumours and got our travel agent to confirm. Poor form!

[Hawaiidan]

I can't imagine that is true.... All bottle shops (off-licences), as well as pubs and clubs, sell discounted alcohol.

 

Last I had heard, the drinks package was not offered on any of the 'Australian servicing fleet'.

 

Princess website still says:

 

 

 

Perhaps Princess had done their sums and re-thought its profitability... However, I'm quite sure that it is not due to not being allowed to offer discounted alcohol.

 

This is the same answer I got for a 2016 cruise out of Brisbane... for all Princess cruises operated from OZ...but not for the reason you stated.

I just figured that Princess felt they could sell more booze by the drink in the region and their "package" might be a looser in that market

[PrincessC15]

Yep we were on the same cruise I think? Sydney to Melbourne back to Sydney.

 

We got a letter informing the drinks package had been cancelled. So from now on I don't trust Princess reservation ladies.

 

Just to let you know another thing they don't tell you, 18 years can drink on this ship Diamond, bring ID, it was noted on the Princess Patter.