Passport Question

[firemanbobswife]

Maybe someday someone will post their experience so we'll have definitive answers.

 

 

I agree.

[steph7021]

Not sure either way but I do know some here will have a conniption if you don't have a passport. After reading CC for a while, I take mine when I go to the grocery store just in case.

 

 

True story. [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]

[SadieN]

Also, to get a passport you'll need those puny photos. The embassies/consulates don't do those.

 

DD lost her purse with her passport inside. The Rome Embassy told her to call back on Monday. On a bright note, a real, live human answered the phone at 23:30 on a Saturday night.

Shockingly, her purse was found with everything intact at the bar where it was lost. She didn't have to brave the Embassy, as her fellow expats say, 'It's worse than going to the DMV!'

Edited December 11, 2014 by SadieN

[RDC1]

From the state department web site. Looks like fees will apply, except for certain circumstances, such as a disaster and you have no funds, then they can be waived.

 

Are Fees Charged to Replace Lost/Stolen Passports Abroad?

The normal passport fees are collected from applicants for replacement passports. Applicants unable to pay the fee will be asked to provide names of persons they feel would be able to assist them financially if there is sufficient time. See our information about Financial Assistance to U.S. citizens abroad and Sending Money Overseas to U.S. Citizen in an Emergency.

 

However, if:

 

the applicant is the victim of a serious crime; or

the applicant is a victim of a disaster

and the applicant does not have and cannot reasonably be expected to obtain money to pay the fees before continuing travel, the passport fee may be waived and a limited-validity passport will be issued. When the person applies for a full-validity passport upon their return to the United States, the regular passport fee will be charged for the replacement passport.

 

Can the U.S. Embassy Issue a Replacement Passport on a Weekend or Holiday?

Most U.S. embassies and consulates cannot issue passports on weekends or holidays when the embassy/consulate is closed. All U.S. embassies and consulates have after-hours duty officers available to assist with life or death emergencies of U.S. citizens abroad. Contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate after-hours duty officer for assistance if you have an emergency need to travel or have been the victim of a serious crime.

 

Duty officers must focus primary attention on life or death emergencies. In most cases, except for serious emergencies, a replacement passport will not be issued until the next business day.

[sparks1093]

From the state department web site. Looks like fees will apply, except for certain circumstances, such as a disaster and you have no funds, then they can be waived.

 

Are Fees Charged to Replace Lost/Stolen Passports Abroad?

The normal passport fees are collected from applicants for replacement passports. Applicants unable to pay the fee will be asked to provide names of persons they feel would be able to assist them financially if there is sufficient time. See our information about Financial Assistance to U.S. citizens abroad and Sending Money Overseas to U.S. Citizen in an Emergency.

 

However, if:

 

the applicant is the victim of a serious crime; or

the applicant is a victim of a disaster

and the applicant does not have and cannot reasonably be expected to obtain money to pay the fees before continuing travel, the passport fee may be waived and a limited-validity passport will be issued. When the person applies for a full-validity passport upon their return to the United States, the regular passport fee will be charged for the replacement passport.

 

Can the U.S. Embassy Issue a Replacement Passport on a Weekend or Holiday?

Most U.S. embassies and consulates cannot issue passports on weekends or holidays when the embassy/consulate is closed. All U.S. embassies and consulates have after-hours duty officers available to assist with life or death emergencies of U.S. citizens abroad. Contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate after-hours duty officer for assistance if you have an emergency need to travel or have been the victim of a serious crime.

 

Duty officers must focus primary attention on life or death emergencies. In most cases, except for serious emergencies, a replacement passport will not be issued until the next business day.

 

Yes, they charge the normal fees to replace an emergency passport but an emergency travel document is a different animal.

[RDC1]

While other countries appear to issue non-passport emergency travel documents, the US only appears to issue limited validity passports. A search of emergency travel documents yields only information about their use in terms of non-US citizens.

 

If anyone has any links or data about the US issuing non-passport emergency travel documents I would be interested in seeing it, because I have not been able to find it in any travel, state department, embassy web site.

 

Since travel to the caribbean is unique since one could get there without a passport. I checked those sites and they are consistent.

 

Consulate General of the United States, Hamilton, Bermuda

The American Citizen Services Emergency Unit is here to assist Americans with:

 

Accidents/illness

Arrests

Deaths of American citizens

Financial assistance

Emergency passports

Evacuations/disasters

Welfare/whereabouts

 

The U.S. seems to take emergency travel documents for US citizens to be emergency passports. With the appropriate fees.

[RDC1]

Yes, they charge the normal fees to replace an emergency passport but an emergency travel document is a different animal.

 

A non-passport emergency travel document does not seem to appear in any U.S. documentation, when talking about U.S. citizens. The government information only use those terms when dealing with non-US citizens in 3 categories.

 

They are consistent in using the term emergency passport when discussing US citizen emergencies. Usually emergency passport is used in the context of a limited validity passport, valid only for the duration of emergency travel.

[sparks1093]

While other countries appear to issue non-passport emergency travel documents, the US only appears to issue limited validity passports. A search of emergency travel documents yields only information about their use in terms of non-US citizens.

 

If anyone has any links or data about the US issuing non-passport emergency travel documents I would be interested in seeing it, because I have not been able to find it in any travel, state department, embassy web site.

 

Since travel to the caribbean is unique since one could get there without a passport. I checked those sites and they are consistent.

 

Consulate General of the United States, Hamilton, Bermuda

The American Citizen Services Emergency Unit is here to assist Americans with:

 

Accidents/illness

Arrests

Deaths of American citizens

Financial assistance

Emergency passports

Evacuations/disasters

Welfare/whereabouts

 

The U.S. seems to take emergency travel documents for US citizens to be emergency passports. With the appropriate fees.

 

This is from the State Department website regarding what services are available in a crisis: "If your U.S. passport expires, you may be required to obtain a valid emergency travel document from the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate before traveling." If an emergency travel document was not a possibility then one would expect that line to read "to obtain a valid emergency passport from the nearest".

 

In addition, there was a long time former consular employee who used to post on Cruise Critic who stated emergency travel documents were issued to those without a passport, although they failed to outline the exact process even when pressed for the information.

 

And finally, under the DHS regulations that give us the closed loop exception it is stated explicitly that the State Department has the legal authority to waive the passport requirements in the event of emergency or for humanitarian reasons. Since they have the authority to waive the requirements it stands to reason that this would be done through some sort of emergency travel document issued by them.

[Shmoo here]

This is an interesting post re: medical emergency and no passport:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=44667059&postcount=19

[sparks1093]

This is an interesting post re: medical emergency and no passport:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=44667059&postcount=19

 

I do recall reading that second hand account. I did not see 2 and a half days under those circumstances to be unreasonable (the first day and a half was probably spent in the hospital anyway being stabilized), and if anyone does have an issue with having to wait that long then of course they should have a passport. The $38,000 for the medevac makes a good case for having good travel insurance.

[RDC1]

This is from the State Department website regarding what services are available in a crisis: "If your U.S. passport expires, you may be required to obtain a valid emergency travel document from the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate before traveling." If an emergency travel document was not a possibility then one would expect that line to read "to obtain a valid emergency passport from the nearest".

 

In addition, there was a long time former consular employee who used to post on Cruise Critic who stated emergency travel documents were issued to those without a passport, although they failed to outline the exact process even when pressed for the information.

 

And finally, under the DHS regulations that give us the closed loop exception it is stated explicitly that the State Department has the legal authority to waive the passport requirements in the event of emergency or for humanitarian reasons. Since they have the authority to waive the requirements it stands to reason that this would be done through some sort of emergency travel document issued by them.

 

I have sent an e-mail to the Consulate on Bermuda asking the exact question. Will see what I get for an answer.

[RDC1]

The following is the text of the e-mail I received in response to my question to the U.S. Consulate in Bermuda.

 

One should always be in possession of a passport when leaving the continental United States although it is not required for closed loop travel. So, if something happens and a traveller must return to the United States by air, they will be required to purchase a U.S. passport, no other document is valid for this travel although there is room for some deviation in life and death emergencies.

Edited December 12, 2014 by RDC1

[firemanbobswife]

The following is the text of the e-mail I received in response to my question to the U.S. Consulate in Bermuda.

 

One should always be in possession of a passport when leaving the continental United States although it is not required for closed loop travel. So, if something happens and a traveller must return to the United States by air, they will be required to purchase a U.S. passport, no other document is valid for this travel although there is room for some deviation in life and death emergencies.

 

 

Excellent information. Thank you so much! But I'm wondering what the "deviation" is.

Edited December 12, 2014 by firemanbobswife

[RDC1]

Excellent information. Thank you so much! But I'm wondering what the "deviation" is.

 

My thought is that if someone needed treatment that could only be gotten in the US and they at risk of death without it, based upon the life and death language.

In other words very very serious medical condition where local treatment is not sufficient and med-evac back to the states has been ruled necessary. Not just desired, but truly necessary.

Edited December 12, 2014 by RDC1

[firemanbobswife]

My thought is that if someone needed treatment that could only be gotten in the US and they would die without it, based upon the life and death language.

 

 

Very well could be.

[richfret]

You don't need a Passport and you don't need life insurance but you may want to consider both. If you get sick and are hospitalized or if your non Carnival excursion is late returning to the ship and you need to catch up with the ship, it's best to have the Passport. It's always fun to be on a strange island trying to get a Passport at 2 am so you can make the 7 o'clock flight to catch up to the ship. Or you can take the chance, do nothing and save a few bucks. I think both sides have presented their case in the prior posts.

 

Thank you RDC1. Backs up very nicely what I said on page 2.

[sparks1093]

My thought is that if someone needed treatment that could only be gotten in the US and they at risk of death without it, based upon the life and death language.

In other words very very serious medical condition where local treatment is not sufficient and med-evac back to the states has been ruled necessary. Not just desired, but truly necessary.

My thought is this refers to the language in the regulations that allows State to waive the passport requirements for an emergency or for humanitarian reasons. They aren't going to get specific in a response to a general inquiry. The person in shmoo's example had a broken hip which is hardly life or death. Still if someone is discomfited by the unknown then a passport is their safest bet.

[RDC1]

I tend to put more trust in the language from the consulate then a one time unverified example from someone on CC. But even with that example:

 

Basically you are at the pleasure of the person handling your case on if they consider it a life or death situation.

 

Just as a point to note, people have died from a broken hip. The medical nature of the that is largely dependent upon the age and health of the patient, but even in a good hospital it can be considered to be a life threatening situation.

 

For example:

 

Speaking at the centennial annual meeting of the Clinical Orthopaedic Society, Erika J. Mitchell, MD, was adamant about the magnitude and morbidity associated with fragility fractures, particularly in the hip.

 

“Statistically speaking, up to half of all women will have fragility fractures in their lifetime, and up to a third of all men,” she explained. “Far more people will have a fragility fracture than will have a heart attack, cancer, or stroke.”

 

Dr. Mitchell pointed out that the average person is more concerned about cancer than a hip fracture.

 

“Hip fractures kill,” she said. “The 30-day mortality rate after hip fracture is about 9 percent. It rises to 17 percent if the patient already has an acute medical problem. If a patient has heart failure while being treated for a hip fracture, the 30-day mortality increases to 65 percent. And if a patient has pneumonia after a hip fracture, the 30-day mortality increases to 43 percent.”

Edited December 13, 2014 by RDC1

[firemanbobswife]

The following is the text of the e-mail I received in response to my question to the U.S. Consulate in Bermuda.

 

One should always be in possession of a passport when leaving the continental United States

 

I think this statement directly from the Consulate says it all. I wouldn't want to worry about if they're open at the time of the emergency, or have to run around while my loved one was lying in a strange hospital. I cannot even fathom the type of panic and stress that would add to the situation.

 

I wonder if you need to pay in cash, check, or credit card in order to get the Passport? IMHO since you're 99.9% likely to need a Passport to get home, might as well just get it done and over with before your trip and have one less thing to worry about it. But again, that's my opinion and what grown people want to do is up to them. I just hope no one has to find out the hard way. That is all.

Edited December 13, 2014 by firemanbobswife

[travler27]

I know a lot of folks have a million reasons to not get a passport. Thousands of US citizens cruise every year on their DL and BC with no problems at all. However, there are infrequent cases where the lack of a passport can be a real problem. There are many reasons why a cruise passenger might need to expedite their return to the states. Not all of them involve personal injury to the traveler.

 

It's simply a matter of how much you are willing to gamble that you won't be that one in ten thousand who needs a quick return flight for some unforeseen reason. And, of course, if you turn out to be that rare passenger in need of emergency travel without a passport you will likely blame the delay in your travel arrangements on the government bureaucracy and not your own failure to properly plan your out of country travel.

 

Just my opinion.

[sparks1093]

I tend to put more trust in the language from the consulate then a one time unverified example from someone on CC. But even with that example:

 

Basically you are at the pleasure of the person handling your case on if they consider it a life or death situation.

 

Just as a point to note, people have died from a broken hip. The medical nature of the that is largely dependent upon the age and health of the patient, but even in a good hospital it can be considered to be a life threatening situation.

 

For example:

 

Speaking at the centennial annual meeting of the Clinical Orthopaedic Society, Erika J. Mitchell, MD, was adamant about the magnitude and morbidity associated with fragility fractures, particularly in the hip.

 

“Statistically speaking, up to half of all women will have fragility fractures in their lifetime, and up to a third of all men,” she explained. “Far more people will have a fragility fracture than will have a heart attack, cancer, or stroke.”

 

Dr. Mitchell pointed out that the average person is more concerned about cancer than a hip fracture.

 

“Hip fractures kill,” she said. “The 30-day mortality rate after hip fracture is about 9 percent. It rises to 17 percent if the patient already has an acute medical problem. If a patient has heart failure while being treated for a hip fracture, the 30-day mortality increases to 65 percent. And if a patient has pneumonia after a hip fracture, the 30-day mortality increases to 43 percent.”

 

The Consulate is obligated to help travelers get home, they have the means to do so under the law and the traveler has traveled with documents allowed under the law. Yes, of course you are putting yourself at the pleasure of the person handling your case, but that person does have a supervisor if it appears that they are dragging their feet on purpose. The mortality rate of broken hips is irrelevant- the traveler had a medical emergency and the Consulate provided assistance in repatriating them, as they should have.

 

All of this information is great because this all needs to be considered when one is deciding whether or not to forego a passport for a closed loop cruise. Some will accept the risk, some will not. In either case it's all good.

[sparks1093]

I know a lot of folks have a million reasons to not get a passport. Thousands of US citizens cruise every year on their DL and BC with no problems at all. However, there are infrequent cases where the lack of a passport can be a real problem. There are many reasons why a cruise passenger might need to expedite their return to the states. Not all of them involve personal injury to the traveler.

 

It's simply a matter of how much you are willing to gamble that you won't be that one in ten thousand who needs a quick return flight for some unforeseen reason. And, of course, if you turn out to be that rare passenger in need of emergency travel without a passport you will likely blame the delay in your travel arrangements on the government bureaucracy and not your own failure to properly plan your out of country travel.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Everything you said up until the bolded part is spot on, except that I would say tens of thousands of passengers travel without issue with DL/BC. One needs to analyze the risk they face as an individual and decide if that risk is acceptable or not.

 

As for the bolded part who cares who they blame?

[RDC1]

The Consulate is obligated to help travelers get home, they have the means to do so under the law and the traveler has traveled with documents allowed under the law. Yes, of course you are putting yourself at the pleasure of the person handling your case, but that person does have a supervisor if it appears that they are dragging their feet on purpose. The mortality rate of broken hips is irrelevant- the traveler had a medical emergency and the Consulate provided assistance in repatriating them, as they should have.

 

All of this information is great because this all needs to be considered when one is deciding whether or not to forego a passport for a closed loop cruise. Some will accept the risk, some will not. In either case it's all good.

 

As the letter says that assistance in most cases is allowing them to purchase a passport so they can travel home. It will even allow someone they know back in the states to pay for the passport if they don't have the means with them.

 

It was, as the response said, a life or death situation. If you read any medical literature about broken hips in the elderly the time to surgery, and the steps taken in the first 48 hours is critical if they are to return to the same mobility as before the injury.

 

First you said a broken hip is not that serious when you referenced that one ad-hoc example, then you just ignore the mortality data and say that it doesn't matter, that it was just because the person was injured. The letter from the consulate indicates differently.

 

As far as threatening to go over the person's head, keep in mind that they have the law and regulation, as written, on their side.

Edited December 13, 2014 by RDC1

[RDC1]

Having a little free time this morning I decided to do a little look through the Federal Register. For those that are not familiar with the Federal Register, it is where all government agency rules and regulations get posted as a critical part of the process. I was looking at those rules related to cruise ship travel and passports for air travel. The rules covering closed loop cruises are in the regulations related to Sea and Land Ports of entry. The following are some interesting extractions:

 

8 CFR Parts 212 and 235

 

DEPARTMENT OF STATE

 

22 CFR Parts 41 and 53

 

Documents Required for Travelers

Departing From or Arriving in the

United States at Sea and Land Portsof-Entry

From Within the Western

Hemisphere

 

1. U.S. Citizens

Generally, U.S. citizens must possess a valid U.S. passport to depart from or

enter the United States.2 However, U.S. citizens who depart from or enter the United States by land or sea from within the Western Hemisphere other than from Cuba have historically been exempt from this passport requirement.3 U.S. citizens have always been required to satisfy the inspecting officers of their identity and citizenship.4 Since January 31, 2008, U.S. citizens ages 19 and older have been asked to present documents

proving citizenship, such as a birth certificate, and government-issued documents proving identity, such as a driver’s license, when entering the United States through land and sea ports-of-entry. Children under the age of 19 have only been asked to present proof of citizenship, such as a birth

certificate.

 

 

3. Rules for Air Travel From Within the Western Hemisphere

On August 11, 2006, DHS and DOS published an NPRM for air and sea

arrivals. The NPRM proposed that, subject to certain narrow exceptions,

beginning January 2007, all U.S. citizens and nonimmigrant aliens, including

those from Canada, Bermuda, and Mexico, entering the United States by

air and sea would be required to present a valid passport or NEXUS Air card;

U.S. citizens would also be permitted to present a Merchant Mariner Document (MMD). The NPRM provided that the requirements would not apply to members of the United States Armed Forces. For a detailed discussion of

what was proposed for air and sea arrivals, please see the NPRM at 71 FR

41655 (hereinafter, Air and Sea NPRM). The final rule for travelers entering or departing the United States at air portsof-entry (hereinafter, Air Final Rule) was published in the Federal Register on November 24, 2006. Beginning January 23, 2007,13 U.S. citizens and nonimmigrant aliens from Canada, Bermuda, and Mexico entering and departing the United States at air portsof-entry, which now includes from within the Western Hemisphere, are

generally required to bear a valid passport. The main exceptions to this

requirement are for U.S. citizens who present a valid, unexpired MMD2traveling in conjunction with maritime business and U.S. and Canadian citizens who present a NEXUS Air card for use at a NEXUS Air kiosk.

 

 

Title 22 of the United States Code mandates that DOS charge a fee for each passport application and a fee for executing each application, where applicable. The law and implementing regulations provide for certain exemptions from passport fees, but the law does not provide DOS the discretion to create additional exemptions or a reduced fee category based on the personal circumstances of the individual

[RDC1]

The following is a description of the special rules for cruise ship passengers and the logic behind them.

 

A. U.S. Citizen Cruise Ship Passengers

Because of the nature of round trip cruise ship travel, DHS has determined

that when U.S. citizens depart from and reenter the United States on board the same cruise ship, they pose a low security risk in contrast to cruise ship

passengers who embark in foreign ports. Although round trip cruises may stop in foreign ports (e.g., some east coast cruises stop in the Caribbean and some cruises in the Pacific Northwest may include land excursions in Canada), there are reasons why U.S. citizens aboard these cruises pose a low security risk. First, on round trip cruises, passengers who depart from the United States would have their documents checked both when they depart from the United States and when they return to the United States. Under current Advanced Passenger Information System (APIS) requirements,51 the cruise lines are required to check the accuracy of the travel documents for all departing passengers. The passenger information is transmitted to CBP well before the return of the cruise ship. While on the voyage, the cruise lines also check the identity of passengers as they return to the ship at various ports of call along the voyage. CBP has worked with the cruise lines to establish proper security protocols for these voyages and will continue to work with the cruise lines on security protocols in the future.

When the cruise ships return to the United States, CBP officers examine the

documents of the incoming passengers as they would for other cruise passengers. Because of the advanced passenger information supplied to CBP

upon departure and because of CBP’s ability to check this passenger data

against the information supplied by passengers upon return to the United

States, the security risks associated with allowing U.S. citizens to use the

documents described below are low. Accordingly, and in response to

public comments, DHS and DOS propose the following alternative document requirement for U.S. cruise ship passengers. For purposes of the proposed rule, a cruise ship is defined as a passenger vessel over 100 gross tons, carrying more than 12 passengers for hire, making a voyage lasting more than 24 hours any part of which is on the high seas, and for which passengers are embarked or disembarked in the United States or its territories.52 U.S. cruise ship passengers traveling within the Western Hemisphere would be permitted to present a government issued photo identification document in combination with either (1) An original or a certified copy of a birth certificate, (2) a Consular Report of Birth Abroad

issued by DOS, or (3) a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), when returning to the United

States, under certain conditions:

• The passengers must board the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States; and

• The passengers must return on the same ship to the same U.S. port or place from where they originally departed. All passengers arriving on a cruise ship that originated at a foreign port or place would have to present travel documents that comply with applicable document requirements otherwise specified in this NPRM when arriving in the United States.

For voyages where the cruise ship originated in the UnitedStates, if any new passengers board the ship at a foreign port or place, the new passengers would have to present travel documents that comply with applicable document requirements otherwise specified in this NPRM when arriving in the United States. U.S. citizen cruise ship passengers that would fall under this alternative document requirement are reminded to carry appropriate travel documentation to enter any foreign countries or stops on the cruise.