CAS-tough for tables players anymore

[skeeter195]

I just got back from the Breakaway and boy have things changed. I had a really bad rating this past March on the Gem(even though I came out ahead), but I was hoping that it was just a fluke. The dealers and floor are being spread to thin I believe. Some of the hosts and managers now are the good dealers and floor people from the past. That is great and they should be rewarded for a job well done. The problem is now that the floor especially do not have enough training or maybe just do not care that much about their job. I am not sour about losing as I came out ahead again on this cruise, but my comps were hardly anything as compared to past cruises. I have been earning between 11 thousand and 16 thousand points per cruise. This one I earned 2800.

 

Here are a few examples:

-day one I started off bad and lost $3800 the first night. I played for 3 hours and did not have a bet under $75. Betting up to $600 per hand at blackjack. I checked the next morning and they had me down as losing $1125(which is weird as I only buy in with $100 bills) and left with nothing, with an average bet of $130. Both were way off.

-day 3 I was playing Blackjack for 1 hour, then moved to Pai Gow at the next table and the floor said OK, I will move you in the computer. I played for 2 1/2 hours with an average of about $350. My Pai Gow time was never recorded

-The last day I played Blackjack for 2 hours and had bets between $100 and $1000. I played 6 hands in a row at $1000. Every time the dealer would say "table max", and look towards the floor, I even made eye contact with the floor during that time. When I finished at that table I went to the host to check my play and to see if was recorded correctly. He checked and said that my time was indeed already in the computer for that table and that my average was $180 with a max bet of $475. I asked the host to come with me over to the table, and he did. We asked the dealer about my play, and the dealer said that I had 12 bets in total at $1000(it was actually 10). He then asked the floor and he actually said that he had seen my bets and he thought that he had put them in, but must have missed it as he was alone working 6 tables. I am sorry but when you have someone betting the table max, you had better make sure that you record the info. The host apologized and said that he would have the floor adjust my bets. At that point though the damage was done and even though I got 300 more points for that session, it was not going to make up for the entire week.

 

I know that some people check with the floor when the leave the table each time about their play. I never had to check and honestly I do not want to be that person who "bothers" or doesn't trust them to record the info properly. It is now hurting my ratings a lot, so I guess I now have to become that person who checks.

[time2cruise1]

Keep in mind points are for slot players not table players. Your comps are not based on points but rather play.

[skeeter195]

Everything is based off of points with CAS. At some land based casinos points are only for machine players and table players just ask for what they want, but that is becoming a thing of the past in most places.

 

Average bet and hands played should factor in to getting more points.

 

At CAS your tier levels and comps are all related to points in some way. Yes in some cases points don't mean much. For instance if some one earns say 1000 points a cruise and they go on 15 cruises a year they will be Golden level. They will however probably not be comped rooms and just get the Golden perks. I was making Golden on a single cruise or just missing it. I take 2 cruises a year. So my points are much more valuable in terms of room/suite comps than someone who takes more trips. Now as I said in my first post my points are tiny and will probably not even get me an inside room comp next time.

[Froggitt]

They don't want your business, take it elsewhere.

[time2cruise1]

I have seen the data they use to determine comps. Points are not a part of it but rather actual play. The data was surprisingly accurate. Yes the the tiered cards are point base but they are slot cards.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - Jim

[rogue 35]

Wow, If I dropped $4,000 in a day I'd be a basket case, but I guess that is why I don't bet that much.

 

I hope it works out for you.

[FranknBeans]

Keep up the losses folks, helps keeps the cruise price in check for us non gamblers.

[SuiteCruiser]

I have seen the data they use to determine comps. Points are not a part of it but rather actual play. The data was surprisingly accurate. Yes the the tiered cards are point base but they are slot cards.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - Jim

 

Can you share this? I play a lot (as you know) I average 55 hours on a 7 day cruise, and I mostly play UTH with $30 on the table. I would say at least 45 of those hours I'm at that table and I play the same bet all the time. The other 10 hours are at LIR maybe one, where I play $30 and 9 at 3 Card where I play $20 on the top.

 

My last cruises I've been told that I barely qualify for an inside cabin. It just does not make sense. I used to qualify for a mini suite, and I used to bet $5 less per game back in those days.

[hpecorari]

Keep up the losses folks, helps keeps the cruise price in check for us non gamblers.

 

I feel the same way to all the drinkers on board! Keep drinking!!

 

Harriet

[CasinoCruzGirl]

I feel the same way to all the drinkers on board! Keep drinking!!

 

Harriet

 

 

High five

[pokerpro5]

Points don't tell the whole story, even with CAS.

 

That's because average bet and time played doesn't reveal skill level, which is an important factor at table games.

 

The guy playing perfect basic strategy blackjack is not nearly as valuable as the one standing on 11 (yes, I've seen people do that before!)

 

You won't see your skill rating anywhere, but it's in there.

 

The higher your skill, the worse your comps.

 

You are also likely correct that they rated you incorrectly, due to being spread too thin and/or incompetence. This especially seems true because they had you losing $1125 in a session instead of the $3800 you really lost.

[Froggitt]

Isn't the $1125 the theoretical loss, which is certainly what they used to base comps on?

[pokerpro5]

Isn't the $1125 the theoretical loss, which is certainly what they used to base comps on?

 

He asked for his actual loss, and they told him $1125. They don't usually compute theoretical losses on blackjack on-the-spot. It's different with video poker or slots, where the computer does it immediately.

 

In blackjack and other table games, it's about average bet, time played, and skill rating.

 

Theoretical loss doesn't tell the whole story regarding the comps you receive. Believe it or not, casinos don't like gambling! That is, they prefer a customer who is highly likely to lose in the short term over one who will be all over the place at higher limits but ultimately lose if he stays long enough.

 

So they would much rather have a really bad $10 blackjack player than a basic strategy $25 player, even if the $25 player's theo is higher. This is because the $25 basic strategy player has a much higher chance of walking off the ship a winner, while the bad $10 player is like free money to them.

 

That isn't always accurately reflected in theoretical losses. That's the reason for the skill rating.

 

Video poker should also have a skill rating, but it doesn't, because the machines don't report back on the quality of players' decisions. However, some casinos do analyze video poker results and give better comps to players who seem to be losing substantially more than the theoretical. But I doubt CAS has a system that sophisticated.

[Casino Comp Chick]

He asked for his actual loss, and they told him $1125. They don't usually compute theoretical losses on blackjack on-the-spot. It's different with video poker or slots, where the computer does it immediately.

 

In blackjack and other table games, it's about average bet, time played, and skill rating.

 

Theoretical loss doesn't tell the whole story regarding the comps you receive. Believe it or not, casinos don't like gambling! That is, they prefer a customer who is highly likely to lose in the short term over one who will be all over the place at higher limits but ultimately lose if he stays long enough.

 

So they would much rather have a really bad $10 blackjack player than a basic strategy $25 player, even if the $25 player's theo is higher. This is because the $25 basic strategy player has a much higher chance of walking off the ship a winner, while the bad $10 player is like free money to them.

 

That isn't always accurately reflected in theoretical losses. That's the reason for the skill rating.

 

Video poker should also have a skill rating, but it doesn't, because the machines don't report back on the quality of players' decisions. However, some casinos do analyze video poker results and give better comps to players who seem to be losing substantially more than the theoretical. But I doubt CAS has a system that sophisticated.

Video poker machines have a skill rating which is why they rate at $10.00 per point vs. slot machines at $5.00 per point.

Edited September 22, 2015 by iimmie

[skiwee]

I'd love to know why some qualify for so little. My husband and I only play slots and it usually takes us until day 6 of a 7 day cruise to even earn free drink cards. Yet we both qualify for at least an inside room on NCL. First time we qualified for a balcony but that was 6 years ago. Now it's just an inside room. Are slots rated higher then tables? We don't spend or lose anywhere near the OP.

[skeeter195]

I don't know if I believe the skill rating thing with CAS. MY reason, they can't even put in my actual biggest bets of a session, even when it is table max. I do play perfect basic strategy and have been known to count a card or two(I know some say you can't with 6 and 8 deck shoes) and I just don't think that floor and dealers can pick up on this this without getting the basic stuff right.

 

Here is something else that I thought about last night. Since Nov 2013 I have taken 5 NCL cruises, all comped. I have come home with more money in my pocket including all spending than what I left with on all 5. My casino wins have been from a low of $16 one trip to one 5 figure trip. Now Froggitt had a good point of maybe they don't want my business anymore??? That would be foolish on their part as everyone loses eventually, why would they want me to leave a winner. Anyway I may have to leave a winner if I lose my comps. I have no problem risking 5 figures on a trip, but I want my room, drinks and meals paid for before I do it. Funny how us gamblers think sometimes.

[Derek King]

I think it's just terrible customer service on their end. I don't play the dollars you do but I play enough to get comped cruises, etc thru CAS.

 

I am very consistent with my bets and time and from cruise to cruise my points seem to vary quite a bit. They just aren't as good as land based casinos in caring about the player IMO. I get taken care of much more on land and everything is more consistent from trip to trip.

 

You definitely should check after every table session, at your level you'd be crazy not too especially on the ships.

 

If you are playing basic strategy even perfect they would want your play because you will still lose over time. If you were an expert counter that was good enough to be a winner every time, they would pickup on it and not allow your play. They wouldn't just cut your comps to dissuade you.

[Jane Don]

I don't know if I believe the skill rating thing with CAS. MY reason, they can't even put in my actual biggest bets of a session, even when it is table max. I do play perfect basic strategy and have been known to count a card or two(I know some say you can't with 6 and 8 deck shoes) and I just don't think that floor and dealers can pick up on this this without getting the basic stuff right.

 

Here is something else that I thought about last night. Since Nov 2013 I have taken 5 NCL cruises, all comped. I have come home with more money in my pocket including all spending than what I left with on all 5. My casino wins have been from a low of $16 one trip to one 5 figure trip. Now Froggitt had a good point of maybe they don't want my business anymore??? That would be foolish on their part as everyone loses eventually, why would they want me to leave a winner. Anyway I may have to leave a winner if I lose my comps. I have no problem risking 5 figures on a trip, but I want my room, drinks and meals paid for before I do it. Funny how us gamblers think sometimes.

 

I agree, they don't want you.

 

I spent more than a decade on the other side of the table and I can tell you that when counting is suspected but not evident, the first step is the devaluation of comps. It is the casino's way of increasing their gains (or hedging losses) with a potential, but not proven, threat.

 

I would bet that if, on your next cruise, you lost (even deliberately), $500 or more, the comps would return.

 

It could also very well be that all comps have been devalued. Or that they are now given based on actual as opposed to theoretical loss. Keep in mind that the new hand count technology could be playing a role as well. If playing a table with such technology, you have to ensure that the dealer's card placement is perfect every hand.

[pokerpro5]

Video poker machines have a skill rating which is why they rate at $10.00 per point vs. slot machines at $5.00 per point.

 

That's not the same thing.

 

Video poker machines generate fewer points (and comps) than slots because the player loses slower (on average) at video poker than slots. The casino "hold" is much higher at slots.

 

But that's not skill-related. It's game related.

 

By "skill rating", I mean differentiating between a player playing proper video poker strategy versus one playing improper strategy.

 

For example, a bad video poker player would hold 5-6-7-9 and go for the straight, when dealt 56792.

 

A good video poker player would throw away all five cards.

 

An advanced rating system would differentiate between these two players and give the better comps to the guy holding the low inside straight draw, but I don't believe any machines (even in Vegas) can report back on skill yet.

[Shawnino]

What is the house edge vs basic strategy on NCL?

(If you don't know, but can give me rules/dealing conditions, I know a place I can plug that in and get the edge.)

How many decks etc.

[pokerpro5]

I am a blackjack card counter. I can tell you from experience and close examination of the games (which I check on each cruise) that these games are unbeatable, even with counting.

 

Counting is useless at continuous shuffle machines, and it's not effective enough at the NCL hand shuffled games due to reshuffling too early in the shoe.

 

So counting has absolutely zero to do with this situation.

 

Cruise ships are careful not to allow a beatable blackjack game, because unlike Vegas, their personnel are not experienced or skilled enough to catch card counters.

 

It is likely that the simplest explanation is the correct one here: The staff was incompetent/lazy and simply didn't watch the OP's bets properly, and rated him wrong. The suggestion to check on your rating after every session is a very good one, and all high limit players should do this. If the rating is incorrect (in a negative way), speak up and demand it's corrected.

[NLH Arizona]

I think their new hand counting system will probably be a little more accurate then depending on the an individual employee trying to figure out what someone is betting. At least with the slots, NCL knows exactly what is run through the machine, what is lost and what is won, so maybe this new counting systems puts the table players on the same playing field as the slot players.

[pokerpro5]

I'd love to know why some qualify for so little. My husband and I only play slots and it usually takes us until day 6 of a 7 day cruise to even earn free drink cards. Yet we both qualify for at least an inside room on NCL. First time we qualified for a balcony but that was 6 years ago. Now it's just an inside room. Are slots rated higher then tables? We don't spend or lose anywhere near the OP.

 

Yes, slots are rated higher than everything.

 

Your slot rating is based upon one and only one thing: Amount of money wagered.

 

It doesn't matter if you win or lose, doesn't matter how long you play, and "skill" has nothing to do with it, since slots do not have a skill element.

 

Money wagered (known as "coin-in") is simply computed by adding up every dollar ever wagered in the slot machines.

 

So let's say you made 1,000 spins at 75c each. Your coin-in would be $750.

 

From there, the computer would generate a theoretical loss (average loss for a player at that machine) based upon the amount bet. So if the machine has a 10% hold (casino edge), then your theoretical loss would be 10% of $750, which equals $75.

 

With the computer assuming your play above was worth just $75 to them (regardless of what you actually won or lost), you can understand why you are not getting significant comps!

 

Still, slots will earn you comps faster than anything else, because you will also lose the most playing them. That is, you will earn them even slower at video poker and blackjack.

[clcjdn]

That's not the same thing.

 

Video poker machines generate fewer points (and comps) than slots because the player loses slower (on average) at video poker than slots. The casino "hold" is much higher at slots.

 

But that's not skill-related. It's game related.

 

By "skill rating", I mean differentiating between a player playing proper video poker strategy versus one playing improper strategy.

 

For example, a bad video poker player would hold 5-6-7-9 and go for the straight, when dealt 56792.

 

A good video poker player would throw away all five cards.

 

An advanced rating system would differentiate between these two players and give the better comps to the guy holding the low inside straight draw, but I don't believe any machines (even in Vegas) can report back on skill yet.

 

I know that they have options for auto hold (at least with online VP) so I think they could have the pieces to put together a "skill" level for VP players. Interesting concept that I would NOT like to see....I know I play at about 98.5% perfect strategy for DDBL poker, and fervently believe that if a greater % of the population played at that % the machines would have to be down graded even further than the 95% ish on NCL. If that spread to Vegas and other land based casinos, it would probably make VP an unplayable game as well.....just my $0.02...... :)

 

Oh, and I agree with your throw all 5 away, unless they were suited. ;)

Edited September 22, 2015 by clcjdn
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