Fuel/Gratuities/Christmas

[Hoveto]

I would like to raise three points:

The cost of fuel has dropped over 30%. It wil interesting to see when the 2017 programme is announced whether we will see a noticable reduction in prices. After all, I can remember when the oil price dramatically increased a fuel supplement was soon incurred. Of course someone is bound to raise the old Chestnut about forward buying, but I think that that argument is very thin.

Secondly, having just returned from the QE Christmas cruise, which was very enjoyable, we went for the automatic gratuities. On the last morning I mentioned to our restaurant steward that we have opted for the auto gratuities and did the company notify them of this. They replied, no. They were both excellent and we gave them an additional tip each. Do members think that the stweards expect these extra tips? i don't know what to think. We also gave our cabin steward an extra tip (although we didnt ask him to do anything for us other than make the beds etc).

Lastly, we have taken two successive Christmas/New Year cruises and they both had very similar itineraries. Both had calls at Cadiz and Lisbon where it was cold and damp. I wish Cunard would cut out these two ports and spend more time in the sun, cruising down to the Cape Verde Islands with calls in the Canary Islands and Madeira for the fireworks. This could still be a 15 day cruise. We decided to give this Christmas a miss as we feel that this years itinerary is even worse (Vigo in December or January!) Looking forward to reading all of your views.

[Pennbank]

I would like to raise three points:

The cost of fuel has dropped over 30%. It wil interesting to see when the 2017 programme is announced whether we will see a noticable reduction in prices. After all, I can remember when the oil price dramatically increased a fuel supplement was soon incurred. Of course someone is bound to raise the old Chestnut about forward buying, but I think that that argument is very thin.

Secondly, having just returned from the QE Christmas cruise, which was very enjoyable, we went for the automatic gratuities. On the last morning I mentioned to our restaurant steward that we have opted for the auto gratuities and did the company notify them of this. They replied, no. They were both excellent and we gave them an additional tip each. Do members think that the stweards expect these extra tips? i don't know what to think. We also gave our cabin steward an extra tip (although we didnt ask him to do anything for us other than make the beds etc).

Lastly, we have taken two successive Christmas/New Year cruises and they both had very similar itineraries. Both had calls at Cadiz and Lisbon where it was cold and damp. I wish Cunard would cut out these two ports and spend more time in the sun, cruising down to the Cape Verde Islands with calls in the Canary Islands and Madeira for the fireworks. This could still be a 15 day cruise. We decided to give this Christmas a miss as we feel that this years itinerary is even worse (Vigo in December or January!) Looking forward to reading all of your views.

 

I also wonder if the crew expect double tips ?

I always keep gratuities on and just tip the steward/ess a little extra .(Like what one does in Hotels and the maid) And if the Bar does not have a gratuity will tip them at the end.

Recently I was watching MNBC in New York and they had a waiter talking about how to get best table, wine etc in Restaurants and the tipping of 20% which is the normal.

A question came up about some Restaurants now including service in the total bill and he, not surprisingly said that a further 20% would be expected.

That is a colossal cost 40% of the meal before you have eaten or drunk anything.

Cant imagine the Aussies or Brits doing that.

 

It looks like the Americans are trying for double tips. !

Edited January 21, 2016 by Pennbank

[loubetti]

The price of oil is just one of myriad expenses affecting a ship. I HIGHLY doubt you will see a reduction in fares, even if oil went to $10 a barrel. Also, fuel is not a ship's biggest expense these days. Also cruise lines like airlines hedge. This is not like filling up at your local gas station, where one might see daily changes in price.

[balf]

Also cruise lines like airlines hedge.

 

 

Yes I agree with you that fares are unlikely to come down (because of cheaper oil) they are pushed to maintain standards as it is with the constant erosion of fare rates.

 

However the hedging excuse doesn't stand up. Obviously there comes a time when the oil will be bought forward at today's silly prices. Of course we know rates won't come down at that time. Competition is the driver for lower fares.

 

I guess that fuel is a much bigger proportion of airlines costs than of cruise lines so the potential there for fare reductions should be greater, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

David.

[transatlantic fan]

I would like to raise three points:

The cost of fuel has dropped over 30%. It wil interesting to see when the 2017 programme is announced whether we will see a noticable reduction in prices. After all, I can remember when the oil price dramatically increased a fuel supplement was soon incurred. Of course someone is bound to raise the old Chestnut about forward buying, but I think that that argument is very thin.

Secondly, having just returned from the QE Christmas cruise, which was very enjoyable, we went for the automatic gratuities. On the last morning I mentioned to our restaurant steward that we have opted for the auto gratuities and did the company notify them of this. They replied, no. They were both excellent and we gave them an additional tip each. Do members think that the stweards expect these extra tips? i don't know what to think. We also gave our cabin steward an extra tip (although we didnt ask him to do anything for us other than make the beds etc).

Lastly, we have taken two successive Christmas/New Year cruises and they both had very similar itineraries. Both had calls at Cadiz and Lisbon where it was cold and damp. I wish Cunard would cut out these two ports and spend more time in the sun, cruising down to the Cape Verde Islands with calls in the Canary Islands and Madeira for the fireworks. This could still be a 15 day cruise. We decided to give this Christmas a miss as we feel that this years itinerary is even worse (Vigo in December or January!) Looking forward to reading all of your views.

We are doing a 26 night cruise this December and the total tips for that would be $702.00 for the two of us.

I am not sure as yet if I will leave the gratuities on or take it off and give them something at the end.

When I was last on I spoke to the purses office about the upcoming trip and she said that paying $702 was ridiculous and advised me to remove it but we shall see.

[BlueRiband]

We are doing a 26 night cruise this December and the total tips for that would be $702.00 for the two of us.

I am not sure as yet if I will leave the gratuities on or take it off and give them something at the end.

When I was last on I spoke to the purses office about the upcoming trip and she said that paying $702 was ridiculous and advised me to remove it but we shall see.

 

Why did you book if you considered the gratuity part to be "ridiculous"? If you are as your screen name suggests you already know the crew compensation system. The gratuity system if badly broken but the crew will work to make your 26 days enjoyable. If the terms are not agreeable then book on an all-inclusive line. (An quite frankly I cannot imagine the Purser actually encouraging you to remove them.)

Edited January 22, 2016 by BlueRiband

[chengkp75]

The fuel "hedging" is not signing long term contracts. It is more like "futures" trading. So, with today's low oil prices, there will not be any long term contracts offered by the oil companies, but when prices are higher, and the "gurus" predict them to remain high, the contract length offered increases.

 

I know Cunard is not as affected as many other cruise lines by the US ECA, but just to give this as an example why all cruise lines are not dropping prices based on low oil prices. Ships operating in "Special Areas" with regards to air emissions (the US ECA, the Baltic, the North Sea, and while in any EU port), ships are required to burn low sulfur MGO (marine gas oil, the maritime name for essentially home heating oil, or #2 diesel fuel), instead of the IFO380 residual fuel that they have burned, and can continue to burn outside these ECA's. The US ECA, is the largest, extending 200 miles out from the entire North American coastline, and also includes Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the USVI. Price for MGO in the 4th quarter of 2015 was the same as the price of IFO380 was back in 4th quarter 2014. So, for a large part of the ship's operating time, she is burning fuel that costs the same as it did a year ago.

 

Further, while crude oil and gasoline prices are continuing to drop, bunker prices have started to rise already, due to increased demand worldwide.

[Salacia]

"P&O Cruises and Cunard Line, two branches of Carnival UK, have made ‘major progress’ in reducing both fuel consumption and emissions during their respective cruises.

 

According to Carnival UK’s latest sustainability report, fuel consumption had decreased by 5% in 2014 after implementing various energy-saving measures onboard their respective ships. These measures, combined with a reduction in the number of seas miles travelled, enabled the two companies to cut total fuel consumption by 18%, compared to 2011..." partial quote from http://www.cruiseandferry.net/articles/po-cruises-and-cunard-reduce-fuel-consumption-and-emissions#.VqJWimdRHIU

 

Also noteworthy is the effect of the new "scrubber" technology which allows for the use of less expensive fuel yet meets the new emission standards.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Salacia

[chengkp75]

"P&O Cruises and Cunard Line, two branches of Carnival UK, have made ‘major progress’ in reducing both fuel consumption and emissions during their respective cruises.

 

According to Carnival UK’s latest sustainability report, fuel consumption had decreased by 5% in 2014 after implementing various energy-saving measures onboard their respective ships. These measures, combined with a reduction in the number of seas miles travelled, enabled the two companies to cut total fuel consumption by 18%, compared to 2011..." partial quote from http://www.cruiseandferry.net/articles/po-cruises-and-cunard-reduce-fuel-consumption-and-emissions#.VqJWimdRHIU

 

Also noteworthy is the effect of the new "scrubber" technology which allows for the use of less expensive fuel yet meets the new emission standards.

 

However, the scrubbers cost about $1-1.5 million per engine, and most ships have 5-6 engines. So, until they make their payback on the scrubbers, typically 5-8 years, depending on how much time is spent in ECA's, they won't be passing any fuel savings down the line.

[transatlantic fan]

Why did you book if you considered the gratuity part to be "ridiculous"? If you are as your screen name suggests you already know the crew compensation system. The gratuity system if badly broken but the crew will work to make your 26 days enjoyable. If the terms are not agreeable then book on an all-inclusive line. (An quite frankly I cannot imagine the Purser actually encouraging you to remove them.)

 

Try reading it again if you can.

I said the purser said that , and yes she did say that.

And yes I know how the system works as I have a couple of friends who work onboard so probably know a little more than some.

[BlueRiband]

Try reading it again if you can.

I said the purser said that , and yes she did say that.

And yes I know how the system works as I have a couple of friends who work onboard so probably know a little more than some.

 

If you know how the system works then you know that there are many crew members beyond those who serve you directly. It is extremely disappointing the hear a regular transatlantic traveler would even consider opting out of gratuities because he thinks part of their compensation is "ridiculous".

 

Guess this proves that those who want to justify stiffing the crew are not necessarily booking the cheapest cabins. If 26 days adds up to $702 then you are staying in a Grills stateroom.

Edited January 23, 2016 by BlueRiband

[Salacia]

However, the scrubbers cost about $1-1.5 million per engine, and most ships have 5-6 engines. So, until they make their payback on the scrubbers, typically 5-8 years, depending on how much time is spent in ECA's, they won't be passing any fuel savings down the line.

 

 

What CCL has communicated in their Investor Relations press releases and stockholder reports regarding the cost efficiency of the scrubbers and the return on that expenditure indicates various convoluted figures that contradict your claim that they won't "make their payback on the scrubbers" for typically 5-8 years.

 

But yes, I do agree with you that they won't be passing any fuel savings down the line.

 

Clearly, anyone can see that CCL profits are quite healthy currently.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Salacia

[chengkp75]

What CCL has communicated in their Investor Relations press releases and stockholder reports regarding the cost efficiency of the scrubbers and the return on that expenditure indicates various convoluted figures that contradict your claim that they won't "make their payback on the scrubbers" for typically 5-8 years.

 

But yes, I do agree with you that they won't be passing any fuel savings down the line.

 

Clearly, anyone can see that CCL profits are quite healthy currently.

 

Interesting. Too lazy to look through their financials, but what is their expected payback period for the scrubbers? I did look at some financials over a year ago, and saw that for NCL's Pride of America, the only ship that operates 100% of the time within the ECA, that the payback period would be 4-5 years. That figure has probably drifted down somewhat with the drop in fuel price this year, but will probably drift back up as bunker prices rise again this year, as they already have started to. Since no other ship operates 100% of the time within the ECA, and therefore only sees benefit from the scrubbers during a portion of their time, the payback period has to be longer. When outside the ECA, the ship is legally free to switch back to residual fuel if on diesel, or to bypass the scrubber.

[cruiseluvva]

Regarding gratuities, surely this is really just part of the cost and should be factored in? I find it incredible that the Purser would be so unprofessional and downright thoughtless as to suggest removing any, or all, of the hotel/dining charges. We calculate the total cost of the voyage PLUS gratuities and if happy with that figure we book, and if not, then we don't book. Simple!

 

Having done a few long voyages, we have paid quite a bit more than the figure quoted in gratuities - and then tipped a little extra on top for excellent service, which we have invariably had.

[Underwatr]

I've been seeing more of a trend over the past two years toward booking promotions where gratuities are included (or an offsetting onboard credit is given).

[Dancer Bob]

Cunard FAQs: "...suggested....wish to remove...". Pretty clear and unambiguous. I'm developing zero sympathy for any cruise line that claims it's a voluntary gratuity up front and then pretends it's a mandatory Hotel Service Charge on the ship. My last cruise was with Costa France, their brochure makes it clear it's a Hotel Service Charge, if you don't want to pay it don't book.

Which does not mean I agree with transatlantic fan. I assume BlueRiband is correct about Grills- pocket money. "Ridiculous" is a pretty strong word, I expect strong substantiation unless you admit it's just your opinion, BlueRiband and cruiseluvva said it all.

If there's a principle involved, say so up front. Remove autogratuities on the first day, "I don't tip at all" or "I want to know who receives my gratuity, not just anyone who happens to be on the ship". Don't complain later unless you want to be branded just another cheapskate.

A couple of posters on various threads have alluded to consumer protection legislation that specifies what agents must quote. Nobody has asked how much the current system is driven not just by cruise lines, but also low-ball quotes by unscrupulous agents in places with no consumer protection. (Also, a CC poll a few months ago, 80% picked what translated to "Pretend to sell me a cruise cheap and then charge me extra on board" so if CC polls are to be believed, that's what passengers want.)

I trust Chengkp75. I don't believe anything a corporate suit puts in a statement, show me the cash in the bank. .

[BlueRiband]

Gratuities have to be accounted for separately due to 1) tax reasons and 2) fare competition. On the later, the moment mass market cruise line A rolls gratuities into their fares they immediately look more expensive than B. (All inclusive lines are marketing to a more exclusive demographic.) The tax issue is more complicated:

 

You also do not know the specifics of the agreements and requirements between the cruise lines, the manning agencies in other countries, and the tax offices of the national governments of the tipped crewmembers.

 

Many Asian countries require the cruise lines to send a percentage of the tipped crew's salary (not their tips) back to their home country - through the manning agent - for tax purposes.

If the gratuities become part of the fare, they also become part of the crew salary. That forces the cruise lines to send a much higher percentage of the crew earnings back to their government, who then takes a much deeper cut of those earnings.

In the process, the manning agent who is handling those funds, fiddles with the exchange rates and skims a nice percentage off for himself.

 

Depending on many factors, adding the gratuities to the fare can result in a net loss for the service staff.

 

Take that FWIW, but he says that he has worked on ships since the 1970s.

 

Well traveled Britons are more likely to understand the system is what it is and go along with it. In Australia and New Zealand 90% of passengers opt out of gratuities "on principal". The cruise lines then have to subsidize the gratuity pool or the crew would strike or quit. But it removes profitability on those itineraries and he claims at least two lines are considering pulling out of those markets for that reason.

 

I'd like to see gratuities - and port taxes - all rolled into the fare too. But I'm not going to book Celebrity just because they're $300 cheaper than Cunard. A lot of people however do book on price.

 

In the end cruise line gratuities are no surprise. I would like to think that anyone who was to spend a great deal of money would have taken the time to read the terms and conditions. There are other ways to save money - like taking a less expensive cabin - if affordability is an issue. Stiffing the crew "on principal" shouldn't be one of them.

Edited January 24, 2016 by BlueRiband

[Hoveto]

I always tip, I'd like to think we'll. But my original question was not if people should tip but after paying the auto gratuities do the stewards EXPECT extra on top. I did give extra but is it expected?

[BlueRiband]

I always tip, I'd like to think we'll. But my original question was not if people should tip but after paying the auto gratuities do the stewards EXPECT extra on top. I did give extra but is it expected?

 

According to Cunard's FAQ pages no. But they do state, "...Naturally, you are free to tip any member of the crew over and above these amounts, at your discretion."

 

If you think your stewards and waiters did their job but no more, then the autotip should suffice. If however you think an individual crew member went that "extra mile" for you then you can choose to give extra.

 

If I give extra, I do this on the last evening for dining room staff. With the autotip I don't have the worry that they got nothing should that crew member be re-assigned to cover a staff shortage elsewhere. Stewards I would tip on disembarkation morning. I leave it in an envelope with their name on it since they are usually very busy turning around almost all of their staterooms.

Edited January 24, 2016 by BlueRiband

[Underwatr]

We don't always tip extra. It depends on overall impressions. Not sure how to quantify it other than that.

 

One exception: I seldom tip the sommelier/wine waiter more than the automatic bottle gratuities and corkage fraction he already gets.

[BlueRiband]

...One exception: I seldom tip the sommelier/wine waiter more than the automatic bottle gratuities and corkage fraction he already gets.

 

The bar gratuity doesn't all go to the sommelier. It goes into a pool for all of the staff involved in stocking the adult beverages.

 

If anyone can still stand it, I've got BruceMuzz's best answers bookmarked:

 

...Every time a barman on a ship receives a $1 tip, parts of that $1 go to: Beverage Manager, Assistant Beverage Manager, Cellarmaster, Beverage Servers, a dozen or so Deck Stewards, a dozen or so Beverage Stewards who stock bars and clean them, and a dozen or so Provisions Staff who load, unload, move, inventory, and otherwise handle all the bar stocks....

[Salacia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceMuzz View Post

...Every time a barman on a ship receives a $1 tip, parts of that $1 go to: Beverage Manager, Assistant Beverage Manager, Cellarmaster, Beverage Servers, a dozen or so Deck Stewards, a dozen or so Beverage Stewards who stock bars and clean them, and a dozen or so Provisions Staff who load, unload, move, inventory, and otherwise handle all the bar stocks....

 

Management receives a share of the gratuity added to bar charges? Really? I am surprised to read that, although Cunard isn't very specific in how the tips are divided - to quote from http://www.cunard.com/frequent-questions/ :"What about gratuities in the bars?

A 15% gratuity is added to your bar charges and dining room wine account. This is shared amongst the beverage staff and their support staff.

 

When we consume can of soda or bottle of water from our Britannia Category cabin refrigerator, that also incurs a 15% service charge. Must add up to a tidy sum until it is divided by percentages to how many people?

Edited January 25, 2016 by Salacia

[BlueRiband]

....When we consume can of soda or bottle of water from our Britannia Category cabin refrigerator, that also incurs a 15% service charge. Must add up to a tidy sum until it is divided by percentages to how many people?

 

According to him that's the case. Bartenders and cocktail waiters are not in the general gratuity pool because not all passenger use their services. Same with those in the spa - they're also not in the general gratuity pool because not everyone uses their service.

[Salacia]

The bar gratuity doesn't all go to the sommelier. It goes into a pool for all of the staff involved in stocking the adult beverages.

 

If anyone can still stand it, I've got BruceMuzz's best answers bookmarked:

 

According to him that's the case. Bartenders and cocktail waiters are not in the general gratuity pool because not all passenger use their services. Same with those in the spa - they're also not in the general gratuity pool because not everyone uses their service.

 

Yes, I understand, and I think that makes sense...but what I don't understand is the statement that management shares in the added 15% gratuity pool as quoted in BuceMuzz's statement. My understanding is that staff and management are two different employment categories, management being better paid and thus not included the "tip pool" but please correct me if I am mistaken. Thanks. -S.

[BlueRiband]

Yes, I understand, and I think that makes sense...but what I don't understand is the statement that management shares in the added 15% gratuity pool as quoted in BuceMuzz's statement. My understanding is that staff and management are two different employment categories, management being better paid and thus not included the "tip pool" but please correct me if I am mistaken. Thanks. -S.

 

That's my understanding as well but I'm just the messenger. BruceMuzz has been active on the boards lately so maybe you can find a suitable thread and ask him for a clarification.