Low-sulphur diesel fuel - will there be any difference?

[Underwatr]

If your energy source is wind/solar, hydrogen production through electrolysis may be inefficient but so is pumping crude oil out of the ground and refining it.

[ccsclean21]

You and your fuel sources, I feel like I'm in a uni lecture. Is this the physics class or the science class I'm not sure which class I'm supposed to be in.  All I care about is getting cheap fuel for my company vehicles so we can stay afloat or the cruises I take the prices don't go through the roof. At least we are getting somewhere with a SOURCE and FUEL that is an alternative to what we are currently using.   Look how far we have come since I made the comment about nuclear power. We have the Hydrogen and I'm not going to say that word I'm not game too. now all we need is transportation technology  anyone want to comment on that one Lol.  Beam me up Scotty.

[SRF]

Where do you get the hydrogen?

 

 

[Underwatr]

1 hour ago, SRF said:

Where do you get the hydrogen?

With solar or wind power, the most efficient source might be electrolysis of water.

 

It's not terrifically efficient but it makes solar and wind power portable without the charging time constraint of batteries.

[ccsclean21]

Electrolysis, that's new never heard of it, only heard about the cable that is a superficial cord on the back of a ship works with electrolysis.

I know how about the stuff you shake and bake, veggie oil and everything will smell of fish and chips, just need heaps of oil filters. 

[ccsclean21]

On 9/5/2019 at 1:40 AM, Underwatr said:

If your energy source is wind/solar, hydrogen production through electrolysis may be inefficient but so is pumping crude oil out of the ground and refining it.

And crude oil is slowly running out or is that just a myth to get oil prices up.

[ccsclean21]

7 hours ago, SRF said:

Where do you get the hydrogen?

 

 

from water obviously which I might add contains 2 hydrogen to 1 oxygen, do I get 100% on my homework. 

[Underwatr]

Reforming natural gas (methane, CH4) is a common way to generate hydrogen in quantity but it's not normally carbon neutral so for this discussion we'll ignore it

Edited September 6, 2019 by Underwatr

[Underwatr]

A fairly technical discussion of hydrogen generation via electrolysis; the article concludes that hydrogen generation competitive with $4/gallon gasoline is technically and economically feasible in the near future.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, ccsclean21 said:

Electrolysis, that's new never heard of it, only heard about the cable that is a superficial cord on the back of a ship works with electrolysis.

I know how about the stuff you shake and bake, veggie oil and everything will smell of fish and chips, just need heaps of oil filters. 

I believe you mean a "sacrificial" anode (bar of zinc), not a "cord", and these anodes are placed all over the ship (in thruster tunnels, in sea water intake chests, around the propeller area, and on the rudder.  The "cable" you may be referring to is that most ships use a combination of zinc anodes and "impressed current" cathodic protection to prevent electrolysis.  The impressed current systems set a small voltage difference between a zinc anode and the hull, and constantly monitor and adjust the current needed to maintain this voltage, to prolong the life of the anode, and to give precise protection against electrolysis.

 

As for "biofuels" (your veggie oil), an Oregon State University study showed:

 

"

"Each dollar spent on energy improvement programs would be 20 times more effective in reducing fossil fuel use and greenhouse gas emissions than a similar cost for the corn ethanol program," Jaeger said. "Likewise, a gas tax increase would be 21 times more effective than promoting cellulosic ethanol."

Overall, it was estimated that U.S.-produced biofuels would cost between 20 and 31 times more than energy efficiency improvements that would reduce gas consumption by 1 percent. The study also reported that combining a gas tax increase with energy efficiency improvements could reduce U.S. fossil fuel use by more than 15 percent (or cut petroleum fuel use by more than 35 percent)."

 

The study looks at long range and wide side effects of biofuels, such as adding additional acreage to producing grains to make the fuel, and factors these into the "cost" of biofuel.

 

11 hours ago, ccsclean21 said:

from water obviously which I might add contains 2 hydrogen to 1 oxygen, do I get 100% on my homework. 

Then obviously you know about electrolysis, since that is how you make hydrogen from water.

[Underwatr]

59 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As for "biofuels" (your veggie oil), an Oregon State University study showed:

 

"

"Each dollar spent on energy improvement programs would be 20 times more effective in reducing fossil fuel use and greenhouse gas emissions than a similar cost for the corn ethanol program," Jaeger said. "Likewise, a gas tax increase would be 21 times more effective than promoting cellulosic ethanol."

There's a disputed Cornell Agriculture study showing that the energy required to grow, harvest and process corn ethanol comprises a net loss compared to the energy obtained from the fuel.

[SRF]

14 hours ago, ccsclean21 said:

And crude oil is slowly running out or is that just a myth to get oil prices up.

 

Crude oil had been predicted to have run out several times over the past 40 years.  Strange, it never actually seems to do so.

 

But I do think we need to plan on it happening.

 

But again, you have to MAKE hydrogen.  And you need energy to do so.  So where do you get that energy?  And why would you want to waste some of that energy making hydrogen, versus using it directly?

[SRF]

1 hour ago, Underwatr said:

There's a disputed Cornell Agriculture study showing that the energy required to grow, harvest and process corn ethanol comprises a net loss compared to the energy obtained from the fuel.

 

There are several accurate studies on this subject.  The ones that dispute it, typically on deal with energy use to convert corn into alcohol, and forget to take into account the energy used to plant, grow, harvest and transport the corn.

 

 

[SRF]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I believe you mean a "sacrificial" anode (bar of zinc), not a "cord", and these anodes are placed all over the ship (in thruster tunnels, in sea water intake chests, around the propeller area, and on the rudder.  The "cable" you may be referring to is that most ships use a combination of zinc anodes and "impressed current" cathodic protection to prevent electrolysis.  The impressed current systems set a small voltage difference between a zinc anode and the hull, and constantly monitor and adjust the current needed to maintain this voltage, to prolong the life of the anode, and to give precise protection against electrolysis.

 

A more correct term would be that it prevents electrolytic corrosion.

[Heidi13]

15 hours ago, ccsclean21 said:

Electrolysis, that's new never heard of it, only heard about the cable that is a superficial cord on the back of a ship works with electrolysis.

I know how about the stuff you shake and bake, veggie oil and everything will smell of fish and chips, just need heaps of oil filters. 

The trailing anode went out to pasture decades ago, only ever sailed on 1 ship with this method.

 

These days they use sacrificial zinc anodes, welded to the hull and various equipment.

[Underwatr]

One of my jobs as a naval officer was to crawl around inside the ballast tanks while the sub was in drydock and hit the zinc anodes with a rubber hammer to make sure they wouldn't easily get knocked loose.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Underwatr

[ccsclean21]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:31 AM, SRF said:

 

Crude oil had been predicted to have run out several times over the past 40 years.  Strange, it never actually seems to do so.

 

But I do think we need to plan on it happening.

 

But again, you have to MAKE hydrogen.  And you need energy to do so.  So where do you get that energy?  And why would you want to waste some of that energy making hydrogen, versus using it directly?

Then we go back to solar and wind for the energy to make Hydrogen.  When we do need is an invention that we can produce the fuel for cars etc at home that way you get rid of the middle man, and the taxes.  you can make your own Hydrogen fuel from a car battery but don't know how pure the stuff would be or even if it would work in an engine but end result the gas would ignite.  So solar and wind would work great for the power, I'm not going to say that word source , darn it now I said it. If it could be used on ships then the water that is expelled out the exhaust can then be recycled back into a holding tank and no missions or smell. very cheap as long as those middle men don't get their hands on the finished designs and then patent the daylights out of it then lock it up so no one uses it or worse still, sell the finished product at a ridiculous  price. Who knows down the track we might be able to buy the equipment that will make the gas safely at home then all you do is go to  one of those big stores like Kmart, a bit like the home. brew.    

[ccsclean21]

On 9/7/2019 at 5:25 AM, Underwatr said:

One of my jobs as a naval officer was to crawl around inside the ballast tanks while the sub was in drydock and hit the zinc anodes with a rubber hammer to make sure they wouldn't easily get knocked loose.

Did your C/O have a dislike to you or something, it sounds a bit like latrine duty and you only coped that if you or your unit did something wrong but you being an Officer you should have used some of those privileges as an Officer has and get some fool to go down and do it.  By the way I never ever did Latrine duty or even guard duty. 

[ccsclean21]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:36 AM, SRF said:

 

A more correct term would be that it prevents electrolytic corrosion.

Yep that's the one. stops corrosion and it attacks the cable not the ship, I think that's how it works.

[ccsclean21]

On 9/7/2019 at 12:31 AM, SRF said:

 

Crude oil had been predicted to have run out several times over the past 40 years.  Strange, it never actually seems to do so.

 

But I do think we need to plan on it happening.

 

But again, you have to MAKE hydrogen.  And you need energy to do so.  So where do you get that energy?  And why would you want to waste some of that energy making hydrogen, versus using it directly?

Solar and wind for starters.

[Underwatr]

29 minutes ago, ccsclean21 said:

Did your C/O have a dislike to you or something, it sounds a bit like latrine duty and you only coped that if you or your unit did something wrong but you being an Officer you should have used some of those privileges as an Officer has and get some fool to go down and do it.  By the way I never ever did Latrine duty or even guard duty. 

The inspection was required to be performed by an officer and at the time I was fairly low in the packing order. There really wasn't anyone I could have delegated it down to. The sub was only drydocked every couple of years so there weren't many opportunities to see the inside of a ballast tank.

[ccsclean21]

3 minutes ago, Underwatr said:

The inspection was required to be performed by an officer and at the time I was fairly low in the packing order. There really wasn't anyone I could have delegated it down to. The sub was only drydocked every couple of years so there weren't many opportunities to see the inside of a ballast tank.

At least when you got the higher rank and it was you who had to tell someone they had to go into the ballast you could do it knowingly you had done it yourself. Why did you pick a submarine, You had to be a certain type of person to handle that and you don't know if you are till you apply then oops too late.  I believe subs stay under for months on end and not see day light, that would drive me nuts. I like to see the sun and stars when they are out and know what the weather is like each day.

[chengkp75]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:25 PM, Underwatr said:

One of my jobs as a naval officer was to crawl around inside the ballast tanks while the sub was in drydock and hit the zinc anodes with a rubber hammer to make sure they wouldn't easily get knocked loose.

 

8 hours ago, ccsclean21 said:

Did your C/O have a dislike to you or something, it sounds a bit like latrine duty and you only coped that if you or your unit did something wrong but you being an Officer you should have used some of those privileges as an Officer has and get some fool to go down and do it.  By the way I never ever did Latrine duty or even guard duty. 

In merchant ships, things like these tank inspections must be carried out by senior officers, typically the Chief Officer from the deck department, and the Chief Engineer, and then junior engineers will be brought along to give them the experience and learn what is required.  This is the mark of a good officer, not assigning anything to a subordinate that you have not, or would not do, and teaching them, not "using those privileges as an officer" to delegate an unpleasant task.  But, then again, the merchant marine is a far different animal than a naval service.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

In merchant ships, things like these tank inspections must be carried out by senior officers, typically the Chief Officer from the deck department, and the Chief Engineer, and then junior engineers will be brought along to give them the experience and learn what is required.  This is the mark of a good officer, not assigning anything to a subordinate that you have not, or would not do, and teaching them, not "using those privileges as an officer" to delegate an unpleasant task.  But, then again, the merchant marine is a far different animal than a naval service.

Same experience as the Chief - tank inspections was not a task delegated to Junior Officers. We started tank entry as cadets, but were led through the tanks and taught by the Chief Officer and/or Chief/2nd Engineer.

 

Only worked 1 tanker and as 3rd Officer, no way they sent me into a cargo tank unless with the Chief Officer. The Chief Officer also had to test the tank and sign-off before anyone entered.

[SRF]

22 hours ago, ccsclean21 said:

Solar and wind for starters.

 

Do the math about how many hundreds of square km of solar farms.  At what energy cost to make.  Or the number of wind turbines (want on in your back yard?) to make the amount of hydrogen.

 

Yes, your car battery makes it, buy pumping excess electricity into the water.  But the amount of energy expended versus the amount of energy recovered by burning the hydrogen is a huge loss of efficiency.

 

TANSTAAFL.