CDC-update May 5th

[BlerkOne]

10 minutes ago, regoodwinjr said:

States have had to pay unemployment and have lost out on millions in tax revenues.

Some have also passed laws/executive orders hindering the return of cruising. They should also be named in any return to cruising lawsuit.

 

But but but. Some claim cruise lines don't pay any taxes.

 

 

[harkinmr]

3 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

It's clear you don't understand the import of "arbitrary and capricious" and how it applies to governmental agencies and their actions. It's also clear you haven't a clue about whether the CDC does, in fact, have this breadth of authority over cruise lines....

It's clear that you don't understand what's required to establish a claim of arbitrary and capricious application against a government agency, or what the CDC's legal authority is or isn't over the cruise lines.  Wow.  That was easy to do.  Thanks for showing me how. 🙄

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

It's legally questionable whether the CDC, in fact, has this breadth of authority over cruise lines or if they do, they're being arbitrary and capricious. 

No, its not "legally questionable", it has been questioned legally, huge difference in what has been proven or not.  And, as far as the breadth of authority over the cruise lines, one merely needs to look at the VSP to see what authority the CDC has had over the cruise lines, since cruising started.

[Buckeyefrank100]

56 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Somewhere after gun control.

I control my gun just fine.  Haven't shot anyone yet.

[chengkp75]

29 minutes ago, regoodwinjr said:

States have had to pay unemployment and have lost out on millions in tax revenues.

 

15 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Some have also passed laws/executive orders hindering the return of cruising. They should also be named in any return to cruising lawsuit.

 

But but but. Some claim cruise lines don't pay any taxes.

 

 

What state tax revenues have been impacted?  Florida's unemployment is so low its a joke, being dead last among states for benefits.  Even CLIA states that the vast majority of the taxes that the cruise industry pays to local, state, and federal jurisdictions are the local property tax on their real estate holdings (that tax hasn't changed since the ships stopped sailing), and the Social Security tax on US employees (and that doesn't affect the states in any way).

[ledges1]

Cruising with no restrictions!

[Sinbadssailors]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

 

What state tax revenues have been impacted?  Florida's unemployment is so low its a joke, being dead last among states for benefits.  Even CLIA states that the vast majority of the taxes that the cruise industry pays to local, state, and federal jurisdictions are the local property tax on their real estate holdings (that tax hasn't changed since the ships stopped sailing), and the Social Security tax on US employees (and that doesn't affect the states in any way).

I'm guessing there's a lot of missing sales taxes from sales that never happened at hotels, restaurants, rental cars etc

[TNcruising02]

1 hour ago, kleibo said:

https://cruisefever.net/only-2-carnival-cruise-ships-are-open-for-bookings-in-july-and-august/   

More cancellations likely to come.

 

And Billions in lost revenue.  Unreal.

https://akcruise.org/2019/11/cruise-industry-contributes-nearly-53-billion-to-u-s-economy/

Yet the CDC wants even vaccinated cruises to make people wear masks during sit down dinners.  The constant removing and handling of the masks defeats the purpose.  It's ridiculous things like this that make people fed up with rules that make zero sense.

[Stallion]

1 hour ago, ChutChut said:

Not correct. What if the person doesn't have internet service and is in a wheelchair? Cite the ADA cases that reflect a public accommodation merely is online shopping or to-go assistance.

Accommodations can take many forms — but there are limits. A business need not accommodate someone if doing so would impede the business’s ability to safely provide its goods and services. Under current Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) guidance, allowing unmasked members of the public into business establishments creates a health and safety risk. Moreover, COVID-19 is spread by persons who may be asymptomatic, and who possibly have no idea whether they carry the virus. As a result, customers are required to wear masks or other suitable face coverings (e.g., bandana, face shield, and the like) under state and local ordinances mandating masks.

Under these circumstances, businesses have a good faith basis to not accommodate an unmasked member of the public — although, no-contact shopping alternatives should be considered and communicated to the customer where a disability is involved.

 

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/handling-retail-customers-who-refuse-to-15208/

Edited May 7, 2021 by Stallion

[harkinmr]

47 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

Unfortunately, the next available port will be not available.

I have no idea what you mean.

[BlerkOne]

A local Domino's is paying a $1000 bonus for delivery drivers. Delivery drivers? What unemployment?

Edited May 7, 2021 by BlerkOne

[lobster1313]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

What state tax revenues have been impacted?  Florida's unemployment is so low its a joke, being dead last among states for benefits.  Even CLIA states that the vast majority of the taxes that the cruise industry pays to local, state, and federal jurisdictions are the local property tax on their real estate holdings (that tax hasn't changed since the ships stopped sailing), and the Social Security tax on US employees (and that doesn't affect the states in any way).

It make no difference if the unemployment rate is low there were still direct and indirect claims.  There are taxes charged on alcohol sales in Florida waters,  sales taxes for visitors to the state, business taxes, hotels, port charges and others fees so not just real estate.

Edited May 7, 2021 by regoodwinjr

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, Sinbadssailors said:

I'm guessing there's a lot of missing sales taxes from sales that never happened at hotels, restaurants, rental cars etc

According to Florida trade association numbers, typical cruise passengers spend about $100 each, in Florida.  With 25.2 million passengers annually, and a 6% sales tax rate, that amounts to $153 million in sales tax revenue from cruise passengers.  Typical (pre-pandemic) Florida sales tax revenues are about $26.2 billion, so the amount coming from cruise passengers is about 0.5%.

[SRQbeachgirl]

1 hour ago, ChutChut said:

You're right. Thus far, cruise lines have been compliant. However, I suspect that's about to change....

 

For Mr. Del Rio (NCL) to publicly state "We are perplexed. We're flabbergasted. We're outraged." in response to the CDC's latest update, and that the requirements are "onerous and preposterous" speaks volumes. We are only seeing and hearing a fraction of what is being said and done behind the scenes between the cruise lines, home port states, and the CDC. The cruise lines have been patient, but it sounds like the volcano is about to blow. 

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, regoodwinjr said:

It make no difference if the unemployment rate is low there were still direct and indirect claims.  There are taxes charged on alcohol sales in Florida waters,  sales taxes for visitors to the state, business taxes, hotels, port charges and others fees so no not just real estate.

So, you dispute CLIA's own statements?  Port charges and fees are not taxes, they are user fees (you get something for paying the fee).  The only alcohol tax paid is until the ship is 3 miles out to sea, the rest of the container loads of liquor brought onboard is "bonded", meaning there is no state liquor or US customs taxes paid on it.  What business taxes do the cruise lines pay?  The sales tax, I've covered above.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, SRQbeachgirl said:

 

For Mr. Del Rio (NCL) to publicly state "We are perplexed. We're flabbergasted. We're outraged." in response to the CDC's latest update, and that the requirements are "onerous and preposterous" speaks volumes. We are only seeing and hearing a fraction of what is being said and done behind the scenes between the cruise lines, home port states, and the CDC. The cruise lines have been patient, but it sounds like the volcano is about to blow. 

No, for Del Rio to state that he is "outraged" only shows that they still think this can blow over and everything will get back to the way it was before.  These same requirements were published by the CDC back in April 2020, so why wasn't Mr. Del Rio "outraged" at the "onerous and preposterous" requirements then?  Had the cruise lines attempted to meet these requirements a year ago, they wouldn't be in this situation now, they would likely have been sailing on a restricted basis for months.

[TNcruising02]

9 minutes ago, SRQbeachgirl said:

 

For Mr. Del Rio (NCL) to publicly state "We are perplexed. We're flabbergasted. We're outraged." in response to the CDC's latest update, and that the requirements are "onerous and preposterous" speaks volumes. We are only seeing and hearing a fraction of what is being said and done behind the scenes between the cruise lines, home port states, and the CDC. The cruise lines have been patient, but it sounds like the volcano is about to blow. 

Especially when NCL agreed to vaccinated cruises.

[TNcruising02]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, for Del Rio to state that he is "outraged" only shows that they still think this can blow over and everything will get back to the way it was before.  These same requirements were published by the CDC back in April 2020, so why wasn't Mr. Del Rio "outraged" at the "onerous and preposterous" requirements then?  Had the cruise lines attempted to meet these requirements a year ago, they wouldn't be in this situation now, they would likely have been sailing on a restricted basis for months.

In April of 2020, we didn't have vaccines and treatments.  It's unreasonable to think April 2020 requirements would be the same as June 2021 requirements with testing and vaccines. An unvaccinated and untested person can eat in a restaurant without a mask. Yet the CDC wants even vaccinated and tested people to wear a mask during meals on a cruise ship.

Edited May 7, 2021 by TNcruising02

[SRQbeachgirl]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, for Del Rio to state that he is "outraged" only shows that they still think this can blow over and everything will get back to the way it was before.  These same requirements were published by the CDC back in April 2020, so why wasn't Mr. Del Rio "outraged" at the "onerous and preposterous" requirements then?  Had the cruise lines attempted to meet these requirements a year ago, they wouldn't be in this situation now, they would likely have been sailing on a restricted basis for months.

 

Um...because we were at the very beginning of a global pandemic that we knew nothing about, had no vaccine or treatments for, and people were dropping dead? 

 

Anyone to not recognizing or acknowledging that things have changed just a bit since then is being willfully obtuse. Why should the requirements be exactly the same as they were before we knew anything about this virus, before there were vaccines, and even before cruise lines (NCL) have said they would sail with 100% vaccinated passengers and crew? For the CDC to refuse to acknowledge the difference between those circumstances and a year ago is, to quote Mr. Del Rio, "preposterous." 

 

Edit to add: And please spare me any "government knows best nonsense. As a government employee, I recognize a bureaucratic power trip when I see one.

Edited May 7, 2021 by SRQbeachgirl

[embarkation75]

2 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Especially when NCL agreed to vaccinated cruises.

And when the stupid DeSantis law is potentially forcing them out if Florida.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/norwegian-could-pull-ships-from-florida/amp/

[bigrednole]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, for Del Rio to state that he is "outraged" only shows that they still think this can blow over and everything will get back to the way it was before.  These same requirements were published by the CDC back in April 2020, so why wasn't Mr. Del Rio "outraged" at the "onerous and preposterous" requirements then?  Had the cruise lines attempted to meet these requirements a year ago, they wouldn't be in this situation now, they would likely have been sailing on a restricted basis for months.

Because April 2020 and May 2021 are extremely different points in time with very different status of the virus, vaccines, and REAL science disproving much of what the CDC tries to portray as fact through the media.

[TNcruising02]

4 minutes ago, embarkation75 said:

And when the stupid DeSantis law is potentially forcing them out if Florida.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/norwegian-could-pull-ships-from-florida/amp/

It doesn't matter because no matter where NCL cruises from with 100% vaccinated people, the CDC will require masks during dinner!  If anything is stupid, it's that.

Edited May 7, 2021 by TNcruising02

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

In April of 2020, we didn't have vaccines and treatments.  It's unreasonable to think April 2020 requirements would be the same as June 2021 requirements with testing and vaccines. An unvaccinated and untested person can eat in a restaurant without a mask. Yet the CDC wants even vaccinated and tested people to wear a mask during meals on a cruise ship.

And, you know what?  If the cruise lines had submitted action plans back a year ago, suggesting detailed ways to mitigate the virus, without being overly onerous on them (since that is their area of expertise, how to operate cruise ships efficiently), then the technical instructions that they waited for, would not have been issued, and the restrictions might have been different, and might have been relaxed by now.  There is no requirement for a regulated industry to await "technical instructions" on how to meet regulations before submitting action plans.  Hospitals around the nation didn't wait for the CDC or state CDC's to issue instructions on how to mitigate covid at their facilities, they had the recommendations (CDC) and the regulations (state CDC), and they developed an action plan based on their business model, their facility, their staff, and their current operating protocols.  Nothing, repeat nothing, kept the cruise lines from doing this back last year.  And, who knows, maybe instead of a couple hundred thousand passengers having sailed under covid restrictions in other countries, a million or more could have sailed by now from the US, and generated date for the CDC to use to modify the requirements.

[kirtihk]

44 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Yet the CDC wants even vaccinated cruises to make people wear masks during sit down dinners.  The constant removing and handling of the masks defeats the purpose.  It's ridiculous things like this that make people fed up with rules that make zero sense.

Imagine... eating spicy (red) saucy chicken wings and constantly doing this motion (a rag on/rag off).  Pretty soon one might start using it (the) instead of a napkin actually.  Or even better, a waiter might be scared up to death when passing by and thinking it's blood all over one's face (cannibal, anyone???).

[TNcruising02]

Just now, kirtihk said:

Imagine... eating spicy (red) saucy chicken wings and constantly doing this motion (a rag on/rag off).  Pretty soon one might start using it (the) instead of a napkin actually.  Or even better, a waiter might be scared up to death when passing by and thinking it's blood all over one's face (cannibal, anyone???).

I can't imagine sitting down for dinner while taking my mask on and off to eat and drink.  That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  The people making this requirement have got to be complete idiots.