Texas joins lawsuit against CDC

[Tree_skier]

53 minutes ago, dswallow said:

CDC’s slow, cautious Covid-19 messaging seems out of step with moment (statnews.com)

What I like about this article so much is that it demonstrates the gross inconsistency and philosophical hypocrisy at the CDC.  Activities that can be fairly compared to cruising, hotels, all inclusive, theme parks, restaurants, all have workable guidance that allow them to operate at least in a way that is similar to their original form.  The CDC's guidance for cruising,  when they finally issued it,  is so onerous and so experience altering that is discourages the companies from even attempting them. 

 

Also, the article's comparisons to the CDC's guidance on other issues was on point.  Throughout the opioid crisis they have cried "harm reduction" like the boy who cried wolf. Those of us who are acquainted with needle exchange programs, which is the CDC's only foray into harm reduction for the substance addicted, know that in the real world, not in an ivory tower academic setting,  they are utterly worthless and are actually counter productive to bettering the health of substance addicted people. 

 

How about some "harm reduction" guidelines for the cruise industry and let us get on with our lives.  Those that are uncomfortable with the guidelines can stay off the ship and can go down to Echo park and hand out needles and  condoms. 

[livingonthebeach]

Last week the CDC lost a case in federal court regarding eviction moratoriums. 

 

The federal judge who heard the case in Washington stated:  "It is the role of the political branches, and not the courts, to assess the merits of policy measures designed to combat the spread of disease, even during a global pandemic," she continued. "The question for the Court is a narrow one: Does the Public Health Service Act grant the CDC the legal authority to impose a nationwide eviction moratorium? It does not."

 

The argument that the CDC does not exist to make laws or regulate but rather to make recommendations and issue guidance, prevailed.  The moratorium was considered an overreach by the CDC and maybe, just maybe, the Florida judge at tomorrow's hearing will think the same regarding the CSO.  

[Stallion]

big difference between CDC authority over eviction proceedings which is  controlled by state law and CDC control over the introduction of public health threats from international travel which is directly within its federal governmental purpose

Edited May 12, 2021 by Stallion

[livingonthebeach]

7 minutes ago, Stallion said:

big difference between CDC authority over eviction proceedings which is  controlled by state law and CDC control over the introduction of public health threats from international travel which is directly within its federal governmental purpose

 

I realize that and used the analogy only to point out that the CDC has been called out for overreaching in the past and have lost cases.  No doubt the cases are different. 

[livingonthebeach]

Interesting article that was published in Time Magazine before the pandemic regarding CDC's power:

 

"The CDC, as the U.S.’s primary agency for taking action to stop the spread of disease, has broad authority under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to restrict travel into the country and between states of an infected person or a person who has come in contact with an infected person, according to Laura Donohue, director of the Center on National Security and the Law at Georgetown Law School.

 

Federal quarantine can be imposed, too, on federal property, like a military base or National Forest land. And as the preeminent employer of experts on public health crises, the CDC is always likely to get involved within any affected state in the event of a looming pandemic.

 

But its power to act is extremely restricted. The agency traditionally acts in an advisory role and can only take control from local authorities under two circumstances: if local authorities invite them to do so or under the authority outlined in the Insurrection Act in the event of a total breakdown of law and order."

 

https://time.com/3516827/cdc-constitution-quarantine/

[harkinmr]

4 hours ago, Tree_skier said:

Exactly right.  Truth serum is about the only thing that would get the truth out of these clowns they've lied to us so many times it's hard to catalog them all. This is one of the few things they actually control and by god they're not going to relinquish that God like power for anything.  Petty bureaucrats, who nobody cared about, suddenly thrust in the lime light for their 15 minutes of fame. They'll exercise that control and milk that significance for as long as they can.

Oh my God!  The level of drama in this discussion is beyond absurd. As if one government agency has it in for the cruise industry and will do anything in their power to destroy it. What planet are you folks living on?

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

Oh my God!  The level of drama in this discussion is beyond absurd. As if one government agency has it in for the cruise industry and will do anything in their power to destroy it. What planet are you folks living on?

 

The planet where everything is fully open and operational except the resorts that float in open waters and fresh air. 

[Etta1213]

1 hour ago, Stallion said:

big difference between CDC authority over eviction proceedings which is  controlled by state law and CDC control over the introduction of public health threats from international travel which is directly within its federal governmental purpose

Do you think that, behind the scenes, the CDC is offering input ref international travel across our southern border?  If they are, it's understandable that such involvement would be kept from being disclosed.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

The planet where everything is fully open and operational except the resorts that float in open waters and fresh air. 

Everything everywhere is not fully open and operational. Many states are still in a gradual reopening position.  And, as said by many before, the CDC does NOT have direct control over any other industry, whether entertainment, leisure, or otherwise. Those industries are governed soley by state and local authorities.  

[Stallion]

1 hour ago, livingonthebeach said:

Interesting article that was published in Time Magazine before the pandemic regarding CDC's power:

 

"The CDC, as the U.S.’s primary agency for taking action to stop the spread of disease, has broad authority under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to restrict travel into the country and between states of an infected person or a person who has come in contact with an infected person, according to Laura Donohue, director of the Center on National Security and the Law at Georgetown Law School.

 

Federal quarantine can be imposed, too, on federal property, like a military base or National Forest land. And as the preeminent employer of experts on public health crises, the CDC is always likely to get involved within any affected state in the event of a looming pandemic.

 

But its power to act is extremely restricted. The agency traditionally acts in an advisory role and can only take control from local authorities under two circumstances: if local authorities invite them to do so or under the authority outlined in the Insurrection Act in the event of a total breakdown of law and order."

 

https://time.com/3516827/cdc-constitution-quarantine/

interesting point but I think they are distinguishing between intrastate commerce (ie "local authorities") which is controlled by the states and the broad authority" of the CDC in matters involving interstate commerce which includes cruise ships embarking on international travel as discussed in the first paragraph in the article. Basically, they aren't taking control from local authorities because a state has never been in control of preventing public health threats caused by interstate commerce. Congress clearly delegated that power to the CDC

Edited May 12, 2021 by Stallion

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Everything everywhere is not fully open and operational. Many states are still in a gradual reopening position.  And, as said by many before, the CDC does NOT have direct control over any other industry, whether entertainment, leisure, or otherwise. Those industries are governed soley by state and local authorities.  

 

Florida where most cruises leave out of is fully operational.  Every single mode of transportation, travel, tourism and entertainment are open here as well. There’s not one single business that is not allowed to be open. 

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, Stallion said:

interesting point but I think they are distinguishing between intrastate commerce (ie "local authorities") which is controlled by the states and the broad authority" of the DCD in matters involving interstate commerce which includes cruise ships as discussed in the first paragraph in the article. 

 

I understand but it’s very surprising they don’t control airlines and allow unvaccinated strangers to sit inches apart for prolonged periods of time on lengthy flights.  Makes no sense. 

[harkinmr]

9 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

Florida where most cruises leave out of is fully operational.  Every single mode of transportation, travel, tourism and entertainment are open here as well. There’s not one single business that is not allowed to be open. 

I’m well aware of that. I live in Florida too. This state has been fully open since late last summer.  Means nothing and in my opinion was an unwise move. Many states haven’t been and are still in the early process of reopening. And, again, no control by the CDC for any of the businesses you reference. 

[Stallion]

The entire country including Florida remains under a proclamation of national emergency under which every state is participating as part of the Covid  Vaccine Program

[Tree_skier]

13 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Oh my God!  The level of drama in this discussion is beyond absurd. As if one government agency has it in for the cruise industry and will do anything in their power to destroy it. What planet are you folks living on?

I don't think they "have it in for cruise industry" it could be any industry that they have this much God like power.  It just happens that they only have advisory power over other industries.  This is more about their ego's and their desire to feel important. Small petty little people that suddenly became important media darlings.

 

This is what passes for science from the CDC these days...

 

"I'm going to pause here, I'm going to lose the script and I'm going to reflect on the recurring feeling I have of impending doom,"

 

This isn't science this is someone who auditioning for an Emmy. This is the head of the CDC. This is a joke.  The planet I live on is the one where reality isn't denied because of a political ideology.

[dswallow]

ORDER appointing Joseph H. Varner III as mediator; designating James H. Percival as lead counsel; setting JUNE 1, 2021 as the mediation deadline; directing counsel to file a notice within two days giving the date and time of mediation. The notice of mediation is due May 20, 2021. Signed by Judge Steven D. Merryday on 5/18/2021.

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/51_047123010546_OrderAppointingMediator.pdf
https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/52_047123010614_OrderMediationAppearance.pdf

Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

[Stallion]

Since the mediation deadline is so close this seems like a "pocket veto" of the Preliminary Injunction which the Court can revisit after the Mediation in 12 days. This is not your general form mediation referral which wouldn't have such a tight mediation deadline

[Pratique]

24 minutes ago, Stallion said:

Since the mediation deadline is so close this seems like a "pocket veto" of the Preliminary Injunction which the Court can revisit after the Mediation in 12 days. This is not your general form mediation referral which wouldn't have such a tight mediation deadline

Or maybe just kicking the can and forcing the parties to sit down and talk first. Fast tracking a resolution out of court seems like a smarter way to handle this. But it also means the judge isn't prepared to dismiss for lack of standing, which would put an end to it.

[livingonthebeach]

My view is that if the judge did not rule against Florida, he feels the state’s arguments have some merit and the order of mediation will bring a quicker resolution than proceeding with the lawsuit, JMO. 

[Pratique]

10 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

My view is that if the judge did not rule against Florida, he feels the state’s arguments have some merit and the order of mediation will bring a quicker resolution than proceeding with the lawsuit, JMO. 

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the judge doesn't feel that the issues have been developed enough for him to make a decision one way or the other, and that by forcing mediation the parties' positions will become clearer (either they are able to make progress or they are at a stalemate).

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, Pratique said:

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the judge doesn't feel that the issues have been developed enough for him to make a decision one way or the other, and that by forcing mediation the parties' positions will become clearer (either they are able to make progress or they are at a stalemate).

 

This may be the judge's line of thinking, however, the fact that he didn't outright throw it out or rule against FL means FL is still in the running and has passed a hurdle - not saying FL will ultimately prevail just that it is promising for FL.  Add to that the negative publicity the CDC has gotten lately surrounding its credibility as well as a blow to its reputation, will only help FL. 

[Pratique]

13 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

This may be the judge's line of thinking, however, the fact that he didn't outright throw it out or rule against FL means FL is still in the running and has passed a hurdle - not saying FL will ultimately prevail just that it is promising for FL.  Add to that the negative publicity the CDC has gotten lately surrounding its credibility as well as a blow to its reputation, will only help FL. 

Judges do not throw parties out of court or deny injunctions easily (if he did there would almost certainly be an appeal, which is not the way the judge wants it to go). On top of that, I don't think a motion to dismiss is before the court. The feds oppose the injunction itself but have not asked the court to dismiss the case yet.

 

My take is that no one has passed any significant hurdles yet, the judge is just giving them another chance to move forward in a way that potentially makes his job easier. It may well be that this is a pocket veto of the injunction but only because the burden on the state for getting it is quite high and the judge isn't sure what the remedy it. Toss out the CDC's order completely, leave it alone, or work out some modification of it? Sending it to the mediator seems like a smart move regardless of how the judge is leaning (if he is leaning at all).

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, Pratique said:

Judges do not throw parties out of court or deny injunctions easily (if he did there would almost certainly be an appeal, which is not the way the judge wants it to go). On top of that, I don't think a motion to dismiss is before the court. The feds oppose the injunction itself but have not asked the court to dismiss the case yet.

 

My take is that no one has passed any significant hurdles yet, the judge is just giving them another chance to move forward in a way that potentially makes his job easier. It may well be that this is a pocket veto of the injunction but only because the burden on the state for getting it is quite high and the judge isn't sure what the remedy it. Toss out the CDC's order completely, leave it alone, or work out some modification of it? Sending it to the mediator seems like a smart move regardless of how the judge is leaning (if he is leaning at all).

 

I like that the mediation has to take place by June 1st.  That's two weeks from today.  July restart seems plausible if ships are ready to go. 

[Pratique]

5 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

I like that the mediation has to take place by June 1st.  That's two weeks from today.  July restart seems plausible if ships are ready to go. 

Are the crews ready to go? Last I heard they have not recalled any crew in significant numbers.

[livingonthebeach]

11 minutes ago, Pratique said:

Are the crews ready to go? Last I heard they have not recalled any crew in significant numbers.

 

Not sure if they are 100% ready but they have been making preparations including getting crew vaccinated.  Miami as well as Galveston and Mobile have vaccinating stations the crew can use at the ports.  They may be able to have a few ships ready by July once they get the green light -- if they do away with the onerous shore facilities contractual agreements, which I'm hoping they do.