An Issue with Celebrity’s Plan?

[ipeeinthepool]

6 minutes ago, Keddy72 said:

Even an all vaccinated cruise , some people can get Covid, people need to stop thinking the vaccine prevents Covid, it just reduces the risk, and reduces risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid 

 

And minimizes the risk of spreading Covid to others.

[JamieLogical]

26 minutes ago, Keddy72 said:

Even an all vaccinated cruise , some people can get Covid, people need to stop thinking the vaccine prevents Covid, it just reduces the risk, and reduces risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid 

 

Who is saying that COVID can't spread on fully vaccinated cruises? The key is that it is INCREDIBLY unlikely that on a fully vaccinated sailing, there will be anyone who gets sick enough to need to be medically evacuated. So, we won't have to worry about our cruise getting disrupted.

[bajathree]

“We win the case or have some sort of mediated agreement where they can cruise. They will absolutely cruise from Florida,” DeSantis promised. “You can bet your bottom dollar on that"

 

“Our law that I signed takes effect July 1st. So if something happens at the end of June, that law will not be in effect. Our laws typically take effect July 1st, so that’s just the reality,” he explained, promising the state will ultimately “enforce the law.”

 

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/01/xclusive-desantis-cdc-in-effect-mandating-a-vaccine-passport-for-the-cruise-industry/

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by bajathree

[LGW59]

12 minutes ago, bajathree said:

“We win the case or have some sort of mediated agreement where they can cruise. They will absolutely cruise from Florida,” DeSantis promised. “You can bet your bottom dollar on that"

 

“Our law that I signed takes effect July 1st. So if something happens at the end of June, that law will not be in effect. Our laws typically take effect July 1st, so that’s just the reality,” he explained, promising the state will ultimately “enforce the law.”

 

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/01/xclusive-desantis-cdc-in-effect-mandating-a-vaccine-passport-for-the-cruise-industry/

 

 

“They will absolutely sail from Florida “. Indeed they will and vaccinated proof will be required. But the Gov hit his base, which I believe was his only intent.

Edited June 1, 2021 by LGW59

[LGW59]

34 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

“They will absolutely sail from Florida “. Indeed they will and vaccinated proof will be required. But the Gov hit his base, which I believe was his only intent.

Also 154,000+ Floridians have jobs directly with the cruise industry and/or related to.  Just shy of $8billion is pumped in to Florida’s economy.  

[Cruising89143]

We had a Sky suite for the Edge on hold over the weekend but decided now is not the best time to cruise. There was several reasons for deciding not to cruise but I’m so over what we consider to be health games that the FL Governor is playing that it has soured me on my former home state right now. In addition to the cruise fare loss there will not be three nights hotel in FLL, car rental, restaurants, sight seeing tours, etc. but I’m sure there will be someone else to make up for the loss. 

[deliver42]

Let's see how he explains to the voters that he left $8 billion on the table just for his ego.

[D C]

2 hours ago, Keddy72 said:

Even an all vaccinated cruise , some people can get Covid, people need to stop thinking the vaccine prevents Covid, it just reduces the risk, and reduces risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid 

"can"? yes

The risk of that "can" on a cruise ship full of vaccinated people is among the most remote risks you will ever encounter in your lifetime  

Your risk of dying on the way to that cruise is almost infintely greater than your risk of contracting covid on a vacinated cruise and subsequently dying from it.

You run a greater risk of a fully vaccinated ship sinking than you do of catching covid on it.

 

"can"? Yes

"likely within the range of possibility that should be of any concern"? no

 

[D C]

1 hour ago, bajathree said:

“We win the case or have some sort of mediated agreement where they can cruise. They will absolutely cruise from Florida,” DeSantis promised. “You can bet your bottom dollar on that"

 

“Our law that I signed takes effect July 1st. So if something happens at the end of June, that law will not be in effect. Our laws typically take effect July 1st, so that’s just the reality,” he explained, promising the state will ultimately “enforce the law.”

 

 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/01/xclusive-desantis-cdc-in-effect-mandating-a-vaccine-passport-for-the-cruise-industry/

 

 

 

1 hour ago, LGW59 said:

“They will absolutely sail from Florida “. Indeed they will and vaccinated proof will be required. But the Gov hit his base, which I believe was his only intent.

He is totally planning on playing the "CDC requires vaccination proof and it trumps our stupid little law" card, isn't he?

[colliece]

3 hours ago, graphicguy said:

This is what you posted....

 

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons. 

 

That's incorrect.  People are protected because of their disability.  Anyone can be refused entrance or participation in any privately run facility or service because the owner(s) deem the person/people in question to be a threat to the health of others.  You will be tested for COVID.  You will be asked for your COVID vaccine card (much in the same way you provide your passport).

 

I am certain, like all other questionnaires and contracts you sign before being allowed to cruise, they'll craft a clause stating the request for the COVID information is solely used for the health of those sailing, and will not be used for any other purpose.

 

Besides, I can't for the live of me understand why people will turn over every other detail in the book about themselves, but be some vehement in their unwillingness to provide their COVID vaccine info.  Your vaccine provider has it.  I know my GP and Cardiologist has it.  My pharmacy has it (and they're in the grocery store where I shop, so the computers in the grocery store has it, too).  My family has it.  

 

But to protect yourself and those around you, it's somehow an issue to provide whether you've had a COVID vaccine or not?

You clearly did not follow the conversation and are making a lot of assumptions, the comment was made about someone that cannot take the vaccine due to a preexisting medical condition, not that they have a disability because of COVID.  They are being denied service due to a medical condition.  They are basically relegated to the 5% of slots available.  I have no problem with them asking about vaccine status as again I said nothing about that, only the small percentage who can't take it, that is why we have ADA requirements.  

 

Another thing to consider is those that have had COVID are more immune than anyone with the vaccine, or at least that is what the science is showing.  Again I have no problem asking, I do have a problem with them keeping a database of private medical information of any kind,  

[D C]

7 minutes ago, colliece said:

You clearly did not follow the conversation and are making a lot of assumptions, the comment was made about someone that cannot take the vaccine due to a preexisting medical condition, not that they have a disability because of COVID.  They are being denied service due to a medical condition.  They are basically relegated to the 5% of slots available.  I have no problem with them asking about vaccine status as again I said nothing about that, only the small percentage who can't take it, that is why we have ADA requirements.  

 

Another thing to consider is those that have had COVID are more immune than anyone with the vaccine, or at least that is what the science is showing.  Again I have no problem asking, I do have a problem with them keeping a database of private medical information of any kind,  

1) having a medical contraindication to a vaccine is not a recognised disability

2) which medical conditions have a contraindication to all 3 EUA-approved vaccines in the US? (already asked earlier in this thread)

 

 

[Babr]

18 minutes ago, colliece said:

You clearly did not follow the conversation and are making a lot of assumptions, the comment was made about someone that cannot take the vaccine due to a preexisting medical condition, not that they have a disability because of COVID.  They are being denied service due to a medical condition.  They are basically relegated to the 5% of slots available.  I have no problem with them asking about vaccine status as again I said nothing about that, only the small percentage who can't take it, that is why we have ADA requirements.  

 

Another thing to consider is those that have had COVID are more immune than anyone with the vaccine, or at least that is what the science is showing.  Again I have no problem asking, I do have a problem with them keeping a database of private medical information of any kind,  

I’m not sure that medical conditions are covered by ADA. As I understand it, the act protects people with physical and mental disabilities. That is not the same thing.

 

Is there such a thing as medical discrimination - perhaps in terms of employment. Do retail and entertainment businesses have to accommodate customers with medical conditions, especially those that may be a threat to public health?  I thought business owners could determine how they conduct their operations as long as it does not violate civil rights.

Just wondering - why do you object to cruise lines keeping information about vaccinations when so many other entities have it?  What do you think they are going to do with it that is so harmful?

 

[graphicguy]

2 hours ago, D C said:

 

He is totally planning on playing the "CDC requires vaccination proof and it trumps our stupid little law" card, isn't he?

That’s the way it sounds to me, too!

[D C]

1 hour ago, Babr said:

 

Just wondering - why do you object to cruise lines keeping information about vaccinations when so many other entities have it?  What do you think they are going to do with it that is so harmful?

 

Because cruise lines otherwise have absolutely no personal information about their guests?  

[graphicguy]

@colliece…..I can’t follow you, either.  Not wanting to argue, but it sounds like you’re confused about the purpose of the ADA.  There is no such thing as medical discrimination…..I don’t even know what that is.

 

So, I’ll bow out.  Best of luck however, wherever, whenever you cruise

[markeb]

I've stayed out of this one because it 99% (made up statistic) seems to deal with Florida politics, and I currently have minimal interest in that.

 

The ADA argument is kind of interesting. As someone with a couple of underlying medical conditions that "may" be subject to ADA (one was; back pain and associated conditions) as an employee, I have some familiarity with the ADA. I'd argue there are a lot more protections on the employee side than the "public accommodation" side that would apply to cruise passengers. But even on the employee side, there's a lot of ambiguity. Just look at the major cancer support groups and their advice to those in chemotherapy, especially if you're looking for employment versus in a stable job. What I've found (and it's not a casual interest) is mostly in the category of "yes, but". Those and autoimmune patients are probably the largest groups with relative contraindications to vaccination. And what is a reasonable accommodation for those groups?

 

Most of the accommodations the DOJ discusses for customers are physical, like ramps and parking places. I'm sure there's actual case law out there for something truly medical, but maybe not vaccines. I kind of doubt the ADA is a slam dunk for those with medical reasons not to be vaccinated and still cruise; there are a lot of caveats in the guidance from DOJ, and I wouldn't hazard a guess at how a court would actually rule. And I'm not an attorney, and certainly not a labor law specialist!

 

I don't really consider the ADA to be a major contributor to this thread, but it's come up.

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, D C said:

Because cruise lines otherwise have absolutely no personal information about their guests?  

Exactly why I use T-Mobile and xfinity, they know nothing about me!

[iamaqt2]

50 minutes ago, markeb said:

I've stayed out of this one because it 99% (made up statistic) seems to deal with Florida politics, and I currently have minimal interest in that.

 

The ADA argument is kind of interesting. As someone with a couple of underlying medical conditions that "may" be subject to ADA (one was; back pain and associated conditions) as an employee, I have some familiarity with the ADA. I'd argue there are a lot more protections on the employee side than the "public accommodation" side that would apply to cruise passengers. But even on the employee side, there's a lot of ambiguity. Just look at the major cancer support groups and their advice to those in chemotherapy, especially if you're looking for employment versus in a stable job. What I've found (and it's not a casual interest) is mostly in the category of "yes, but". Those and autoimmune patients are probably the largest groups with relative contraindications to vaccination. And what is a reasonable accommodation for those groups?

 

Most of the accommodations the DOJ discusses for customers are physical, like ramps and parking places. I'm sure there's actual case law out there for something truly medical, but maybe not vaccines. I kind of doubt the ADA is a slam dunk for those with medical reasons not to be vaccinated and still cruise; there are a lot of caveats in the guidance from DOJ, and I wouldn't hazard a guess at how a court would actually rule. And I'm not an attorney, and certainly not a labor law specialist!

 

I don't really consider the ADA to be a major contributor to this thread, but it's come up.

My husband has RA, and is immunosuppressed with the medication he takes.  He got the Pfizer vaccine just fine.  So many of these "excuse" posts are ridiculous.  My sister has Lupus, and after multiple discussions with her physician opted for the J&J vax.  She had a rough month of symptoms after, but they finally cleared up.   I'm firmly in the camp of, if you're too sick to get the vaccine, you're too sick to cruise.  Stay home and keep yourself well.

[Lmm79]

4 hours ago, colliece said:

You clearly did not follow the conversation and are making a lot of assumptions, the comment was made about someone that cannot take the vaccine due to a preexisting medical condition, not that they have a disability because of COVID.  They are being denied service due to a medical condition.  They are basically relegated to the 5% of slots available.  I have no problem with them asking about vaccine status as again I said nothing about that, only the small percentage who can't take it, that is why we have ADA requirements.  

 

Another thing to consider is those that have had COVID are more immune than anyone with the vaccine, or at least that is what the science is showing.  Again I have no problem asking, I do have a problem with them keeping a database of private medical information of any kind,  

Could you please link the science that shows that those that have had Covid are more immune than those with the vaccine?  Because that’s a huge claim to make without anything to back it up. 
 

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/immune-response-from-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-is-more-robust-than-natural-infection

Edited June 2, 2021 by Lmm79

[colliece]

6 hours ago, Lmm79 said:

Could you please link the science that shows that those that have had Covid are more immune than those with the vaccine?  Because that’s a huge claim to make without anything to back it up. 
 

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/immune-response-from-mrna-covid-19-vaccines-is-more-robust-than-natural-infection

Here you go:

National Institute of Health:

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

 

NY TImes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.html

 

Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9#:~:text=So suggest researchers who have,will be extraordinarily long-lasting.

 

I have seen dozens of others.

[Bluewake]

9 hours ago, markeb said:

I've stayed out of this one because it 99% (made up statistic) seems to deal with Florida politics, and I currently have minimal interest in that.

 

The ADA argument is kind of interesting. As someone with a couple of underlying medical conditions that "may" be subject to ADA (one was; back pain and associated conditions) as an employee, I have some familiarity with the ADA. I'd argue there are a lot more protections on the employee side than the "public accommodation" side that would apply to cruise passengers. But even on the employee side, there's a lot of ambiguity. Just look at the major cancer support groups and their advice to those in chemotherapy, especially if you're looking for employment versus in a stable job. What I've found (and it's not a casual interest) is mostly in the category of "yes, but". Those and autoimmune patients are probably the largest groups with relative contraindications to vaccination. And what is a reasonable accommodation for those groups?

 

Most of the accommodations the DOJ discusses for customers are physical, like ramps and parking places. I'm sure there's actual case law out there for something truly medical, but maybe not vaccines. I kind of doubt the ADA is a slam dunk for those with medical reasons not to be vaccinated and still cruise; there are a lot of caveats in the guidance from DOJ, and I wouldn't hazard a guess at how a court would actually rule. And I'm not an attorney, and certainly not a labor law specialist!

 

I don't really consider the ADA to be a major contributor to this thread, but it's come up.

 

As I understand the ADA (as a non-attorney), while a business entity cannot deny service to a person with a qualifying disability, it also does not have to lower or eliminate it's standards.  For example, if a Chemistry student at a university has a disability which prevents that particular student from being near the chemicals in the lab, the university does not have to exempt that student from the lab courses. Rather, the college must work with the student to afford that student a reasonable alternative way to learn such as providing an assistant who can handle the chemicals for the student.  More importantly, the university would never drop the required lab courses from the Chemistry curriculum simply because one student cannot do it.  And, the college absolutely has the right to require that student to provide evidence of the qualifying disability.  That is something a lot of people seem not to realize.

 

With respect to cruise lines, I just don't see why a cruise line would have to totally drop the vaccination requirement to which everyone else is required to adhere because a few persons cannot take the vaccine.  Couldn't the cruise line work with those passengers to find a reasonable accommodation such as wearing a mask in all public places on the ship, a separate dining area, etc.?

 

But, perhaps my understanding is inaccurate.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Bluewake

[wrk2cruise]

I believe with a letter from a DR stating that the passenger is not able to take the vaccine the cruise line would allow if they had room left in their 5% unvaccinated allotment and that passenger would be required to follow the protocols for that group (testing, masks, distancing or whatever is it is on that sailing).

 

I'm more than happy to wear a wristband to say I've been certified as fully vaccinated and can follow those protocols.   Then non vaccinated wouldn't need to be asked to self identify

[harkinmr]

17 hours ago, colliece said:

Fortunately in this country we have the American Disabilities Act which keeps people from being discriminated against for medical reasons.  But not allowing them, they have been denied service due to their disability.  I would think they would not want to take the risk, but it is their choice and the law clearly is in their favor.  We also have HIPAA laws, but that does not say companies cannot ask about your medical history, they just cannot share that info, however that gets a little gray if they require different regulations that everyone will be able to know who is unvaccinated.  Not sure how it would apply.  

What is the disability?  There is no legal protection for a medical contraindication to a vaccine or for refusal to be vaccinated. There are also exemptions for the cruise industry made under the ADA in certain circumstances. Finally, there is no HIPAA violation in requiring proof of vaccine status. HIPPA applies to medical practitioners sharing medical information without authorization, not an individual voluntarily providing that information. 
 

EDIT: If folks are going to be claiming some sort of medical prohibition against vaccination they should be required to provide documentation concerning the same and authorization for the cruise lines to verify. The same should hold true for anyone claiming a religious exemption. These are the current standards applied by employers and schools and are well within the parameters of the ADA. The honor system is not going to work. 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by harkinmr

[D C]

1 hour ago, colliece said:

Here you go:

National Institute of Health:

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

 

NY TImes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/health/coronavirus-immunity-vaccines.html

 

Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9#:~:text=So suggest researchers who have,will be extraordinarily long-lasting.

 

I have seen dozens of others.

None of those suggest that post-infection immunity is greater than immunity from vaccination, which I believe is your claim. 

[Babr]

7 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

What is the disability?  There is no legal protection for a medical contraindication to a vaccine or for refusal to be vaccinated. There are also exemptions for the cruise industry made under the ADA in certain circumstances. Finally, there is no HIPAA violation in requiring proof of vaccine status. HIPPA applies to medical practitioners sharing medical information without authorization, not an individual voluntarily providing that information. 

I agree with you and others here who have pointed out that the discrimination claim doesn’t hold up against the ADA or civil rights. The governor saw an opportunity to manipulate his base, and it worked because his followers were willing to believe that they were being treated unfairly. The irony is that the government intervention into Florida businesses came from the small government, pro-business bunch.