Official: Mediation in lawsuit against federal gov., CDC over cruising shutdown has failed

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, Pratique said:

I'm not sure a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss is on the docket yet? I think it's just the motion for the preliminary injunction. I agree it is not likely the judge would dismiss the case now because the CDC has still not even filed their answer to the complaint (although we pretty much already know what they are going to say). Well we have at least a week to wait! And continue this discussion until the thread gets tired or locked or whatever.

May have gotten ahead of myself on that one, but I do see it coming along with the supplemental brief.  Judge could even dismiss of his own volition, but that I think would be a stretch.  I guess we'll see.  Either way, as you say, makes for a longer thread. 😉

[cscurlock]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The main argument in the case is whether the CDC has the authority to set conditions on granting "free pratique", or not, as that is what the CSO is, a set of conditions for "free pratique".  That is the ability to enter US waters and operate in US waters (and US navigable waters, right up to the dock, are federal jurisdiction) without a quarantine or a full health/sanitation inspection every time the ship enters US waters.  If the judge rules that the CSO is illegal, this invalidates the CDC's mandate as the sole agency able to grant "free pratique", and therefore, all prior requirements for "pratique" would be considered illegal as well, such as the VSP.  What agency would then be responsible for granting health clearance?  Without health clearance, the USCG will not grant entry into any US port, for any ship.  If the judge rules that some of the CSO is unjustified, then that is another thing, but Florida is petitioning for the entire CSO to be dropped.  The vaccine thing is a secondary argument, since the CDC is not requiring vaccines, and only put that forward as an option that the cruise lines requested.

 

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No, there is no direct challenge to the VSP, but if the CDC is told they don't have the authority to set requirements for "free pratique", which is what the CSO is, then they don't have the authority to set the VSP.

 

Except that the health clearance is a federal jurisdiction, as set forth by the Constitution, since this involves entering the country, as well as all navigable waters being federal jurisdiction, also as outlined by the Constitution.

 

There is no downtime for a health inspection, since the cruise ships agree to follow the VSP, but if they did not, then the CDC and USCG could require a quarantine or health inspection each and every time a vessel enters the US (which is what used to happen, you flew the yellow "Quebec" signal flag that you were "requesting free pratique" and were in quarantine until such time as health inspectors came to the ship, granted pratique, and the ship was allowed to continue on its way.  The electronic forms of this nowadays is done prior to the vessel actually entering US waters, and eliminates the actual boarding of a vessel, but if there is a problem with the electronic request for clearance, then the ship can still be held in quarantine, and boarded by health officials.

 

And, if states are allowed to regulate international and interstate entry regulations, first you would likely have 50 sets of these regulations, and secondly, you might as well eliminate CBP and the USCG as well, and rely on state agencies for everything.

 

 

Truth.  Its very hard to throw away the rules when the alternative would be much much worse.

[cured]

Just now, Ocean Boy said:

However, our vacations are other people's livelihoods.

Absolutely true. Which is the basis of my opinion that if DeSantis really cared about Florida, he would have taken up this fight long ago when the other large entertainment venues opened up.

[cscurlock]

14 minutes ago, cured said:

That is completely your opinion.

 

My opinion being a middle of the road independent, is that if DeSantis really cared about cruising and Florida, he would have engaged the CDC when the parks, the movie theaters, and everywhere everyone is clamoring is safe and open.

 

No, he is politically hungry and saw an opportunity to be a hero to his slipping base. His actions are so transparent it is almost laughable. He saw that vaccines were on a fast track, that ships now had an opportunity to sail vaccinated.  Things were already starting to look good for the restart of cruising. He is also quite savvy that a good portion of his base is antivaxx.

 

If he really cared about Florida's cruising economy, he would have made waves with the CDC long ago. His timing screams that this is just a political ploy to gain national political points for his presidential run in 2024.

 

I agree that the CDC has been heavy handed with the cruise industry, but personally, I would rather have them err on the side of caution. It is just a vacation for crying out loud. There is a whole world opening up to again explore.

 

 

 

This,  He could have take then CDC on last summer.  Why didn't he do it then?  Why not make the lawsuit last summer or when florida's port were closed down initially?  Because it was politically convenient that's why.

Edited June 4, 2021 by cscurlock

[jrapps]

At this point, I find what happens with this case irrelevant. Royal has announced their full return to sailing with specific dates for each ship (all under the current CSO) so I don't really see the point of this lawsuit anymore. It certainly isn't going to accelerate anything at this point, regardless of how a ruling comes down.

 

So where is the official Vaccine Passport thread.... 😂

[Pratique]

15 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

This,  He could have take then CDC on last summer.  Why didn't he do it then?  Why not make the lawsuit last summer or when florida's port were closed down initially?  Because it was politically convenient that's why.

I saw this with Rick Scott when he was governor too. They are reluctant to engage with a D in the White House.

 

22 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

May have gotten ahead of myself on that one, but I do see it coming along with the supplemental brief.  Judge could even dismiss of his own volition, but that I think would be a stretch.  I guess we'll see.  Either way, as you say, makes for a longer thread. 😉

This being federal court, the judges don't really want to be reversed on appeal. He will likely write up a very detailed and well-reasoned opinion to defend his decision.

[cscurlock]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

And let the "judicial bias" bus begin to roll...

Lol, yeah I suspect that is what we will hear but at the end of the day it won't matter the constitution will prevail.

[sr4mjc]

44 minutes ago, cured said:

Absolutely true. Which is the basis of my opinion that if DeSantis really cared about Florida, he would have taken up this fight long ago when the other large entertainment venues opened up.

 

Disney opened up last July (I have been many times since then, pre and post vaccination).  There is no way in hell he could or should have fought for cruising back then.   I would also disagree that a large portion of supporters are anti-vaxxers. I do see Disney theme parks and cruising a little different only because I think it was easier to reduce capacity and spread people out outside multiple parks and hotels.   I'm not sure cruises would have wanted 30% capacity then, idk maybe. 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by sr4mjc

[ONECRUISER]

1 minute ago, sr4mjc said:

 

Disney opened up last July (I have been many times since then, pre and post vaccination).  There is no way in hell he could or should have fought for cruising back then.   I would also disagree that a large portion of supporters are anti-vaxxers.  

 

Agree, well said to all

[Oceansaway17]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

Agreed.  I would be surprised if the judge grants the motion to dismiss, but would like to hear your thoughts.  Who knows though, he could just grant dismissal to get the mess off his bench provided the CDC meets the bar for support.

 

 

I can't help but wonder if the judge likes to cruise and how that might influence the decision.

 

Frankly CDC has given the cruise industry a way forward and Gov S should go away quietly and be QUIET!!!!!!. Otherwise his grandstanding will in the end hurt the industry and delay it even more and effect Alaska possibly too.  

I agree with others that his fight for really caring should have started around Christmas time to open up Springtime cruising just like the darn beaches did.

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, sr4mjc said:

 

Disney opened up last July (I have been many times since then, pre and post vaccination).  There is no way in hell he could or should have fought for cruising back then.   

 

I disagree. The Governor has been all about opening up since last May. I’m surprised he even took a slight detour for a watered down “shutdown”.  I remember in September he wanted Disney to go 100%. Thankfully, they exercised good judgment and did not. He certainly could have used his then bravado to fight against the feds and sue for opening cruising last Summer or Fall. But he chose not to for obvious reasons.  Given the way things are progressing with cruising, the lawsuit is essentially moot and will linger on in court until it dies a natural death.  

[coldflame]

3 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Sometimes editorial summarization sort of lacks the details.  There is no one side has all the cards.

 

The Defendant now has until Monday to file the 'no more than 5-page supplemental memorandum, the Plaintiff to Reply in 5-or fewer pages by Wednesday and the Hearing on Thursday.

 

ORDER granting 67--defendants' motion to submit a supplemental memorandum; permitting the defendants to submit by noon on 6/7/2021 a supplemental memorandum of five or fewer pages addressing only those issues specified in the motion; permitting the plaintiff to respond by 6/9/2021 in five or fewer pages; scheduling a hearing for 10:00 a.m. on 6/10/2021 in Courtroom 15A; requiring the attendance of at least lawyers Percival, Hilborn and Powell. Signed by Judge Steven D. Merryday on 6/4/2021. (BK) (Entered: 06/04/2021)

 

ORDER AND NOTICE OF HEARING

 

The defendants move (Doc. 67) to submit a supplemental memorandum “[i]n light of recent developments.” Specifically, the defendants argue that Congress recently ratified the conditional sailing order and that “cruising is set to resume as planned.” (Doc. 67 at 3) Partially opposing (Doc. 69) supplemental briefing, the plaintiff argues (1) that Congress “decided not to ratify the CDC’s conduct as to Florida,” (2) that recent case law gravitates against the conclusion that Congress ratified the conditional sailing order, (3) that the defendants’ understanding of ratification creates non-delegation issues, and (4) that a supplemental brief might delay resolution of this action.

 

There's no editorialization. The judge granted the motion for the CDC to enter brief to dismiss and denied FL's attempt to block it. As I said in previous messages FL had shaky legal standing to begin with, but now Congress with the Alaska Tourism Restoration Act, has codified, in law, the CDC has authority and a directive to regulate how and when cruises are allowed to resume. FL has no cards left. Could the judge rule in their favor? Possibly you never really know, but would be very uncharacteristic given the new law and the fact he has, so far, de facto denied FL of preliminary injunction -- meaning it'll be one month when the hearing takes place, and two months since the suit was filed and no injunction against the CDC has been granted.

[Sunshine3601]

2 hours ago, jrapps said:

At this point, I find what happens with this case irrelevant. Royal has announced their full return to sailing with specific dates for each ship (all under the current CSO) 

Where is this announcement for all ships with specific / confirmed sailing dates?   I know many of us would love to know.

[At Sea At Peace]

3 hours ago, Pratique said:

 

I'd say CDC has the upper hand on this one, because the judge is permitting them to argue their "in light of recent developments" position (new arguments) and Florida must limit their response to those same issues. Florida will not have much more of a chance to introduce new arguments of their own unless they are on point to the CDC's supplemental brief, so they are boxed in on their reply.

 

IMO, "in light of recent developments" is a double edged sword and the CDC and the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases are increasingly being exposed as absolutely untrustworthy, unreliable, political and very, very unscientific.

[sr4mjc]

21 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I disagree. The Governor has been all about opening up since last May. I’m surprised he even took a slight detour for a watered down “shutdown”.  I remember in September he wanted Disney to go 100%. Thankfully, they exercised good judgment and did not. He certainly could have used his then bravado to fight against the feds and sue for opening cruising last Summer or Fall. But he chose not to for obvious reasons.  Given the way things are progressing with cruising, the lawsuit is essentially moot and will linger on in court until it dies a natural death.  

 

Where would these supposed cruises have cruised to back then?  It's one thing to allow things to open up within your own state, but if the cruises had nowhere to go and no international staff stateside to staff the ships, I don't see how that would helped anyone or even been possible at that time. 

 

Disney may as well have opened 100%, all the plexiglass and queue wrapping in the world I doubt made a bit of difference. I love Disney, went shortly after opening, again in Oct, and another 10 days at the campground in Jan and, it's hardly the most magical place on earth right now.  But I am glad for cast members who want to be back to work. Truly awful for Disneyland to be stuck closed for as long as it did, they made it work here. 

[coldflame]

5 minutes ago, sr4mjc said:

Disney may as well have opened 100%, all the plexiglass and queue wrapping in the world I doubt made a bit of difference. I love Disney, went shortly after opening, again in Oct, and another 10 days at the campground in Jan and, it's hardly the most magical place on earth right now.

 

It's actually BETTER now that it has ever been. With caps limited the parks are actually enjoyable right now. We went to AK and HS last september/october. It was fantastic. Wish they keep it that way. If a few panels of plexiglass in queue areas (and a few restaurants) only are somehow an impediment to the overall enjoyment of the park you're just looking for excuses.

[xpcdoojk]

1 minute ago, coldflame said:

 

It's actually BETTER now that it has ever been. With caps limited the parks are actually enjoyable right now. We went to AK and HS last september/october. It was fantastic. Wish they keep it that way. If a few panels of plexiglass in queue areas (and a few restaurants) only are somehow an impediment to the overall enjoyment of the park you're just looking for excuses.

So much for the parks making any money, in order to pay shareholders, and to reinvest to improve the parks.  

 

It is always easy to spend other people’s money.

[coldflame]

Just now, xpcdoojk said:

So much for the parks making any money, in order to pay shareholders, and to reinvest to improve the parks.  

 

It is always easy to spend other people’s money.

 

They are making oodles of money on parks in case you haven't been watching their quarterly statements for the last year. Disney+ is bringing a metric ton of revenue more than making up for any perceived shortfall. In fact, Disney is doing financially better now than it was before COVID. 

[xpcdoojk]

Well if they make so much money doing digital stuff, why invest in ancient concepts like theme parks.  Everyone can just sit at home and play virtual reality.  

 

If the parks don’t make money on their own they are doomed.  

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by xpcdoojk

[xpcdoojk]

I am not a particular mouse fan.  I find their parks to be less fun for me than Universal, and neither is important to my life in any way.  

 

Economic reality is truth.  

[jrapps]

28 minutes ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Where is this announcement for all ships with specific / confirmed sailing dates?   I know many of us would love to know.

Check out the RCBlog 

[not-enough-cruising]

29 minutes ago, Sunshine3601 said:

Where is this announcement for all ships with specific / confirmed sailing dates?   I know many of us would love to know.

Royal website 

Royal Facebook 

Royal Twitter 

the forbidden blog 

[CampNCruise74]

2 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

And in a free country we as individuals choose what chances we want to take with our lives.  Alas, in the dream nanny state, the nanny must protect us at the expense of the world’s livelihoods.  We are letting unelected bureaucrats to be our masters.  

 

Again, cruises are not inherently more dangerous than other similar activities, and because the CDC has authority over these, they are being unfairly closed down.  

 

An emergency that lasts more than a very short period of time, is nothing more than a power grab.  

 

We should have had politicians, who are accountable to the voters, make a law.  They can’t which means there is not overwhelming support for these emergency power grabs.

 

People who demand the power grab continue are a danger to a free society.

 

Too bad we lost ours.

 

2 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

And in a free country we as individuals choose what chances we want to take with our lives.  Alas, in the dream nanny state, the nanny must protect us at the expense of the world’s livelihoods.  We are letting unelected bureaucrats to be our masters.  

 

Again, cruises are not inherently more dangerous than other similar activities, and because the CDC has authority over these, they are being unfairly closed down.  

 

An emergency that lasts more than a very short period of time, is nothing more than a power grab.  

 

We should have had politicians, who are accountable to the voters, make a law.  They can’t which means there is not overwhelming support for these emergency power grabs.

 

People who demand the power grab continue are a danger to a free society.

 

Too bad we lost ours.

"Again, cruises are not inherently more dangerous than other similar activities, and because the CDC has authority over these, they are being unfairly closed down.  ". 

 

Uh, like what other similar activities? Where else can 4000+ strangers share about six acres of public space for a week!?

[Sunshine3601]

3 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Royal website 

Royal Facebook 

Royal Twitter 

the forbidden blog 

Last I looked a couple hours ago (I'm at work) they had no updates.    glad to hear they finally made an official announcement.   I will check out next.    TY

[At Sea At Peace]

4 minutes ago, CampNCruise74 said:

Where else can 4000+ strangers share about six acres of public space for a week!?

 

The CDC guidelines are exposure from close contact (2 meters or 6'+) for 15 minutes in a 24 hour period (not required to be continuous, can be three 5-minute periods for example).

 

So, at the CDC threshold, all of the baseball parks, basketball arenas, hockey playoffs, concerts, and even theme parks, easily make this threshold.

 

IDK how others cruise, but we certainly don't make contact with the 2-4,000 other passengers during a 7 day cruise anywhere close to exposure of sitting at Fenway Park for 4 hours, TD Garden or Disney World.

 

The retort that the CDC has jurisdiction over the ships though, and not all of the above referenced, because of its powers and duties to protect from people leaving and arriving at the US as its creed for cruise line 'crushing' pales when the same dogma isn't used for international air travel or open borders.

 

So, it's just hard to take them seriously.  It's becoming harder every day as their malfeasance is no longer merely stunning.