Official: Mediation in lawsuit against federal gov., CDC over cruising shutdown has failed

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, rolloman said:

Oh I get it...but if Florida loses enough revenue to operate because of a Federal agency (who has lost all credibility) Florida has the option to decide to no longer be a part of the club....

You’re kidding. Right??

[cured]

6 minutes ago, rolloman said:

Oh I get it...but if Florida loses enough revenue to operate because of a Federal agency (who has lost all credibility) Florida has the option to decide to no longer be a part of the club....

Please explain how Florida gets to not be part of the game. Unfortunately, this is one of the problems of today. Too many people have absolutely NO idea how our country works. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by cured

[rolloman]

3 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

You’re kidding. Right??

Yeah I am kidding....

[A&L_Ont]

42 minutes ago, Pratique said:

In my view they lie in a gray area. I think that if the CDC had gone through the normal public rulemaking process then they would be OK, but instead they continue to rely on the emergency declaration to impose their will without due process. This can't go on forever, but the question is when is enough enough? I don't know.

 

IMO…

 

TX and FL dropped mask mandates sometime ago and no big spike.  The rest of the states have recently followed suit. No spike yet and hopefully not to come. 
 

I think flights strictly over US airspace should be next to no longer need masks. No spike in cases after that open the door to cruises. Right now there are 18K a night at hockey games, baseball, basketball, and concerts coming this summer etc… if there is a spike we should have seen it already or any time now. Let cruises follow after.

 

The vaccine has bent the curve, the goal from day one. Case counts are manageable at 20K a day, give or take, and it was about not overloading the hospitals from day one. At this point IMO the US is at that point.  It is not as though variants and case counts will be stopped in tracking.  If the data spikes then things will be reeled back. 

 

 

[cured]

19 minutes ago, rolloman said:

Yeah I am kidding....

Phew.  You never gave off the vibe before of having lived under a rock for your whole life 🤣

[flamingos]

3 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Yes, but....the latest news does not bode well for NIH nor CDC. I think DeSantis knows this and is holding the cards. Public perception of Fauci, NIH, and CDC is in the toilet. Don't you think it is coincidental that CDC removed the mask mandate in the last few weeks? They all knew these emails were coming out and part of their damage control. Just my opinion.

And I disagree - perhaps we run with different crowds.  DeSantis is the one who is making this difficult, not the CDC.  Ships were going to sail, most with vaccination requirements, because the vaccine rollout has gone so well.   So he was creating a problem where there was none; and then he adds the ridiculous vaccine passport law that he demanded.  This is a dilemma of his own making, because he wants his political base to support him.  It's not winning him any new voters.

[songbird1329]

4 hours ago, boatseller said:

Nope.  If that were the case, the CDC would have first challenged Florida's standing.  That the case continues means the Court has accepted it.

 

And the 10,000's of Floridians out for work are 'indirect injuries'...wow....ok....

 I’m, I read the motion papers.  The first thing that was raised was standing.

[smokeybandit]

5 hours ago, jrapps said:

This is an assumption (and one I don't deny) but the CDC never said. "well we decided to publish technical guidance because we got sued". I

 

I would never expect the CDC to admit that (or really anyone in their position)

[Pratique]

1 hour ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

IMO…

 

TX and FL dropped mask mandates sometime ago and no big spike.  The rest of the states have recently followed suit. No spike yet and hopefully not to come. 
 

I think flights strictly over US airspace should be next to no longer need masks. No spike in cases after that open the door to cruises. Right now there are 18K a night at hockey games, baseball, basketball, and concerts coming this summer etc… if there is a spike we should have seen it already or any time now. Let cruises follow after.

 

The vaccine has bent the curve, the goal from day one. Case counts are manageable at 20K a day, give or take, and it was about not overloading the hospitals from day one. At this point IMO the US is at that point.  It is not as though variants and case counts will be stopped in tracking.  If the data spikes then things will be reeled back. 

 

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Hope things improve for you guys north of the border soon!

[songbird1329]

4 hours ago, Pratique said:

The opinion of the trial judge in one of the CDC eviction cases is enlightening. Although the facts are different, the same law is in play.

 

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18658400/61/alabama-association-of-realtors-v-united-states-department-of-health-and/ (emphasis added)

 

As to the second factor—whether the movant will be irreparably injured absent a stay—

the movant must make a strong showing “that the injury claimed is both certain and great.”

Cuomo, 772 F.2d at 976 (internal quotation marks omitted). “Probability of success is inversely

proportional to the degree of irreparable injury evidenced.” Id. at 974. “A stay may be granted

with either a high probability of success and some injury, or vice versa.” Id.

       The Department has made a showing of irreparable injury here. As the federal agency

tasked with disease control, the Department, and the CDC in particular, have a strong interest in

controlling the spread of COVID-19 and protecting public health. The CDC’s most recent order

is supported by observational data analyses that estimate that as many as 433,000 cases of

COVID-19 and thousands of deaths could be attributed to the lifting of state-based eviction

moratoria. See 86 Fed. Reg. 16,731, 16,734 (Mar. 31, 2021). The CDC Order also cites a

mathematical model that “estimate[s] that anywhere from 1,000 to 100,000 excess cases per

million population could be attributable to evictions depending on the eviction and infection

rates.” Id. To be sure, these figures are estimates, but they nonetheless demonstrate that lifting

the national moratorium will “exacerbate the significant public health risks identified by [the]

CDC.” Defs.’ Mot. to Stay at 3. Even though “vaccinations are on the rise,” Pls.’ Opp’n at 2, at

least as of last week, the nation was averaging “more than 45,000 new infections per day,” Defs.’

Mot. to Stay at 5–6, and the recent “emergence of variants” presents yet another potential cause

for concern, see 86 Fed. Reg. at 16,733. Thus, the risks to public health continue.

 

...

 

 

A stay to allow the D.C. Circuit time to review this Court’s ruling, presumably on an

expedited basis, will no doubt result in continued financial losses to landlords. But the

magnitude of these additional financial losses is outweighed by the Department’s weighty

interest in protecting the public. See League of Indep. Fitness Facilities & Trainers, Inc. v.

Whitmer, 814 F. App’x 125, 129–30 (6th Cir. 2020).

As I recall, the issue is different.  Congress initially approved the non eviction provision, and when the Congressional provision expired the CDC sought to extend the ban without Congress. 
 

Here, the CDC acted on its own, and Congress adopted the CDC actions after passing the law allowing Alaskan cruises to resume.

[songbird1329]

3 hours ago, Pratique said:

If the judge allows the parties to file supplemental briefs, we could be churning for a while longer. 😃

Already filed....

[Pratique]

2 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

As I recall, the issue is different.  Congress initially approved the non eviction provision, and when the Congressional provision expired the CDC sought to extend the ban without Congress. 
 

Here, the CDC acted on its own, and Congress adopted the CDC actions after passing the law allowing Alaskan cruises to resume.

True the facts are different, what’s interesting is how the trial judge handled the motion to stay pending appeal.

[Pratique]

1 minute ago, songbird1329 said:

Already filed....

The full briefs? Or just the request?

[Pratique]

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

You’re kidding. Right??

I think Florida already tried this in 1861.

[songbird1329]

11 minutes ago, Pratique said:

True the facts are different, what’s interesting is how the trial judge handled the motion to stay pending appeal.

Handled just as I expected it would be.  Status quo pending appeal.

[broadwaybaby123]

It would not surprise me if the cruise lines decided to relocate elsewhere.  They have to think of the safety of the passengers first, which may mean full vaccinations for everyone onboard except for those medically exempt from the shots and children under 12.  

 

What may happen is if they're allowed to cruise out of Florida and the cruise lines insist on fully vaccinated cruises, they may decide to relocate their ships and headquarters elsewhere, which could be costly to Florida.  

 

Either that, or the cruise lines may decide not to make stops in Florida anymore, which could be costly as well.

[Pratique]

9 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

Handled just as I expected it would be.  Status quo pending appeal.

The eviction moratorium will have ended by then. So the injunction is largely symbolic.

[songbird1329]

21 minutes ago, Pratique said:

 

21 minutes ago, Pratique said:

The full briefs? Or just the request?

 

CDC filed a motion to serve a supplemental brief, citing ATRA as. Congressional  approval of the CSO and also that Florida’s motion is moot because the CDC and the cruise lines are getting the ships into the water.  CDC also argued that granting the injunction would end Alaska cruising, because ATRA only allows cruising under the CSO.

 

In response, Florida essentially threw Alaska under the bus.   
 

and argued that every day the ships don’t sail is causing irreparable harm to Florida.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by songbird1329

[not-enough-cruising]

2 hours ago, rolloman said:

What part don't you get....Florida is a State with its own Government, therefore in reality, Florida can do what Florida wants to do. The CDC is a Federal agency which in reality has nothing to do with how the State of Florida governs its people....

I think you are missing the entire bigger picture here.  

[Pratique]

1 minute ago, songbird1329 said:

 

 

CDC filed a motion to serve a supplemental brief, citing ATRA as. Congressional  approval of the CSO and also that Florida’s motion is moot because the CDC and the cruise lines are getting the ships into the water.  CDC also argued that granting the injunction would end Alaska cruising, because ATRA only allows cruising under the CSO.

 

In response, Florida essentially threw Alaska under the bus.   
 

and argued that every day the ships don’t sail is causing irreparable harm to Florida.

 

 

Yeah, I read that too. I thought they wanted to brief it further than that.

[songbird1329]

DeSantis has apparently boxed himself in.  He portrayed himself as the champion of the cruise lines. But the cruise lines, the CDC and Congress ignored him and came up with their own solutions.

 

vaccines seem to be the CDC’s line in the sand.  Will DeSantis cave?  Or will the cruise lines have to develop a work-around or move their ships?

[A&L_Ont]

6 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

and argued that every day the ships don’t sail is causing irreparable harm to Florida.

If FL stopped “arguing”, would the ships be sailing sooner now that the discussions are well under way and the test cruises starting to be granted?  If so wouldn’t that be the time to stop. 
 

Edit to add, the Governor got the parties to the table and then stepped back idea. I would think that would give some clout to him.

Edited June 4, 2021 by A&L_Ont

[jrapps]

1 minute ago, songbird1329 said:

DeSantis has apparently boxed himself in.  He portrayed himself as the champion of the cruise lines. But the cruise lines, the CDC and Congress ignored him and came up with their own solutions.

 

vaccines seem to be the CDC’s line in the sand.  Will DeSantis cave?  Or will the cruise lines have to develop a work-around or move their ships?

Desantis will not cave. EVER.

 

I am beginning to wonder, with respect to the vaccine requirement ban, the only path forward is literally to ignore the law. Well, ignore it only as far as to admit that the state has the right to levy a fine. So the cruise lines go ahead with plans to keep them safe, and just let the fines rack up. Worry about that at a later date.

 

The plan may literally be just to ignore the fines and not pay them, and punt this back into the states hands. FL will eventually either decide to let it go, or sue the cruise lines for non-payment of the fine. Of course this will be many months (if not years) from now. Maybe at that later time, they negotiate a reduced fine (say $1 per infraction instead of $5000) to make all the bad press go away. 2 years from now when that lawsuit is going on, we will be right in the swing of a presidential election. Does Desantis really try to bankrupt businesses in his own state while running for the White House? nah! Or maybe the cruise lines bet that Desantis loses re-election, and his successor in FL forgives all the fines.

 

Many ways this can play out if they just go ahead and say "fine us" and deal with it later.

[Pratique]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Desantis will not cave. EVER.

 

I am beginning to wonder, with respect to the vaccine requirement ban, the only path forward is literally to ignore the law. Well, ignore it only as far as to admit that the state has the right to levy a fine. So the cruise lines go ahead with plans to keep them safe, and just let the fines rack up. Worry about that at a later date.

 

The plan may literally be just to ignore the fines and not pay them, and punt this back into the states hands. FL will eventually either decide to let it go, or sue the cruise lines for non-payment of the fine. Of course this will be many months (if not years) from now. Maybe at that later time, they negotiate a reduced fine (say $1 per infraction instead of $5000) to make all the bad press go away. 2 years from now when that lawsuit is going on, we will be right in the swing of a presidential election. Does Desantis really try to bankrupt businesses in his own state while running for the White House? nah! Or maybe the cruise lines bet that Desantis loses re-election, and his successor in FL forgives all the fines.

 

Many ways this can play out if they just go ahead and say "fine us" and deal with it later.

Yes. That would be my counsel too.

[harkinmr]

20 minutes ago, Pratique said:

I said that here a week ago and was reminded the the lawyers are required to attend. But they should serve an advisory role for their clients, not be the only ones in the room. At least that’s how it was when I did a few pro bono landlord-tenant cases many years ago. Makes sense, but I still don’t know who has negotiation authority for the state. Who the heck should have been at the mediation (other than the lawyers)? Commissioner of Agriculture? Lol I don’t know.

They shouldn’t be the only ones in the room that’s for sure. The case wasn’t really conducive to mediation out of the gate. But as we’ve said before, Merryday wanted it off his plate.  At least for a while.