Court rules for Florida in cruise case, grants injunction stopping CDC order...

[TeeRick]

14 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Also, does this mean simulated cruises are not required anymore. RCCL will like that.

Ken- the CSO is effectively expired (or non-enforceable anyway) as of July 18 instead of Nov 1. Assuming the preliminary injunction holds.  It seems to me that these test cruises are now at the discretion of the cruise line.  They might do them anyway for operational practice and data, as well as the fact that a number of passengers are being given free cruises.

 

My question is related.  Even on fully vaccinated ships (or 95/5), there has always been CDC wording in the fine print about turning back to port if a certain level of virus-positive tests are on board.  Some have said 1-1.5% range.  So positive tests on board even if nobody is sick can result in a early end to the cruise for everybody.  Does this now go away?  I would like to know as it is more of a risk to my cruising than actually the negligible risk of getting symptomatic COVID as a vaccinated person on board.

 

And since I have to make final payment for Alaska in a week- not sure what to do.  CSO is still in place but non-enforceable.  So does the PVSA exemption legislation still hold in that situation?  

[ebeluga]

9 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

100% agree with the above comment. I’m willing to sit back to wait and see what happens but I don’t think the cruise lines are going to chance having major issues as they know they have shot to get this right. They’re still allowed to follow any of the guidelines given by the CDC if they so choose. 

Plus they will have to see what level of risk tolerance their customers have.

Edited June 19, 2021 by ebeluga

[bajathree]

5 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

100% agree with the above comment. I’m willing to sit back to wait and see what happens but I don’t think the cruise lines are going to chance having major issues as they know they have shot to get this right. They’re still allowed to follow any of the guidelines given by the CDC if they so choose. 

I'm not sure I see it that way. I think changes will be taking place in July/Aug getting back to a more normalcy that we are used to in cruising. I really don't think the cruise lines want to police all these current restrictions in place and will try to get away from them sooner than latter.

[Cruising89143]

6 minutes ago, bajathree said:

I'm not sure I see it that way. I think changes will be taking place in July/Aug getting back to a more normalcy that we are used to in cruising. I really don't think the cruise lines want to police all these current restrictions in place and will try to get away from them sooner than latter.

And I believe if that happens it could lead to some serious issues for the industry and they will deserve what they get. Sometimes you have to crawl before you walk.

[graphicguy]

22 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

100% agree with the above comment. I’m willing to sit back to wait and see what happens but I don’t think the cruise lines are going to chance having major issues as they know they have shot to get this right. They’re still allowed to follow any of the guidelines given by the CDC if they so choose. 

Assuming the timing was intentional on Celebrity’s part, just got this in my email overnight from Celebrity regarding my July 31 Edge cruise….

 

(Paraphrase)

Apparently, the email won’t attach, but essentially it says everyone 16 and older will be required to be vaccinated on the 7/31 cruise.  Anyone not providing proof of vaccination will be considered unvaccinated.  And, that those are are unvaccinated will have to undergo additional testing at their own expense (except those under 16) and may be limited on all excursions as well as throughout the ship.  Plus, they must be masked when in public and in enclosed areas of the ship.

 

Clearly, they only want vaccinated passengers on board.

 

ill not be required for vaccinated guests a

Edited June 19, 2021 by graphicguy

[Cruising89143]

22 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Ken- the CSO is effectively expired (or non-enforceable anyway) as of July 18 instead of Nov 1. Assuming the preliminary injunction holds.  It seems to me that these test cruises are now at the discretion of the cruise line.  They might do them anyway for operational practice and data, as well as the fact that a number of passengers are being given free cruises.

 

My question is related.  Even on fully vaccinated ships (or 95/5), there has always been CDC wording in the fine print about turning back to port if a certain level of virus-positive tests are on board.  Some have said 1-1.5% range.  So positive tests on board even if nobody is sick can result in a early end to the cruise for everybody.  Does this now go away?  I would like to know as it is more of a risk to my cruising than actually the negligible risk of getting symptomatic COVID as a vaccinated person on board.

 

And since I have to make final payment for Alaska in a week- not sure what to do.  CSO is still in place but non-enforceable.  So does the PVSA exemption legislation still hold in that situation?  

Your concerns are some of the same that I have and RCG/Celebrity will need to answer those questions before we board. Most of the below was addressed in the CDC’s CSO but we know how the cruise lines can turn on a dime. Especially when it’s on “their” dime. 

 

What happens if there is an outbreak on the ship and what percentage of guests/crew will it take to terminate the cruise?
 

If there is an outbreak on the ship will the “home” (Florida) port allow the ship to return and debark passengers including those that tested positive or will all guests be forced to quarantine on the ship? 

How will those who tested positive get home? Who pays? Before this was on the cruise line.

 

Using the example of what happened last week in St. Maarten with the two guests that tested positive, Celebrity stepped up and took care of them. I hope that continues. 

[Cruising89143]

4 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Assuming the timing was intentional on Celebrity’s part, just got this in my email overnight from Celebrity regarding my July 31 Edge cruise….

 

ill not be required for vaccinated guests a

What did you receive? 

[graphicguy]

18 minutes ago, cruisingator2 said:

What did you receive? 

It was an email that I could not cut and paste.  Paraphrased it’s major points above.

[harkinmr]

37 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Ken- the CSO is effectively expired (or non-enforceable anyway) as of July 18 instead of Nov 1. Assuming the preliminary injunction holds.  It seems to me that these test cruises are now at the discretion of the cruise line.  They might do them anyway for operational practice and data, as well as the fact that a number of passengers are being given free cruises.

 

My question is related.  Even on fully vaccinated ships (or 95/5), there has always been CDC wording in the fine print about turning back to port if a certain level of virus-positive tests are on board.  Some have said 1-1.5% range.  So positive tests on board even if nobody is sick can result in a early end to the cruise for everybody.  Does this now go away?  I would like to know as it is more of a risk to my cruising than actually the negligible risk of getting symptomatic COVID as a vaccinated person on board.

 

And since I have to make final payment for Alaska in a week- not sure what to do.  CSO is still in place but non-enforceable.  So does the PVSA exemption legislation still hold in that situation?  

The CSO remains in place until July 18.  It could be replaced by a newer version negotiated during mediation and then approved by the court.  The ruling could also be appealed and the judge's order stayed until resolution of the appeal.  More flux.  Any test cruises planned for anytime before July 18 will likely proceed.

 

What happens with the CSO will ultimately impact the threshold of infection provisions, so a turn back may not be required unless decided upon by the cruise ship itself.  The CDC's authority under the VSP remains in place notwithstanding yesterday's ruling, so theoretically if there is a major outbreak on board the ship could be quarantined at the port when it returns.

 

Alaska, I think, is a question mark.  The legislation requires a Conditional Sailing Certificate to take advantage of the exemption.  If the CSO is finally declared null and void, there is no Certificate. The legislation would have to be amended.  If it remains as "guidance only", there may be a way for ships to secure the Certificate voluntarily.  We will see.

[basenji56]

For information about a Covid positive test on a Bermuda cruise check out this topic:

 

1 COVID positive passenger and 4 quarantining on 6/15 Orion Bermuda Cruise - Viking Ocean - Cruise Critic Community

[Cruising89143]

7 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

It was an email that I could not cut and paste.  Paraphrased it’s major points above.

Thanks. 

[Cruising89143]

4 minutes ago, basenji56 said:

For information about a Covid positive test on a Bermuda cruise check out this topic:

 

1 COVID positive passenger and 4 quarantining on 6/15 Orion Bermuda Cruise - Viking Ocean - Cruise Critic Community

Interesting comments. Hopefully more will come out on this. 

[TeeRick]

6 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The CSO remains in place until July 18.  It could be replaced by a newer version negotiated during mediation and then approved by the court.  The ruling could also be appealed and the judge's order stayed until resolution of the appeal.  More flux.  Any test cruises planned for anytime before July 18 will likely proceed.

 

What happens with the CSO will ultimately impact the threshold of infection provisions, so a turn back may not be required unless decided upon by the cruise ship itself.  The CDC's authority under the VSP remains in place notwithstanding yesterday's ruling, so theoretically if there is a major outbreak on board the ship could be quarantined at the port when it returns.

 

Alaska, I think, is a question mark.  The legislation requires a Conditional Sailing Certificate to take advantage of the exemption.  If the CSO is finally declared null and void, there is no Certificate. The legislation would have to be amended.  If it remains as "guidance only", there may be a way for ships to secure the Certificate voluntarily.  We will see.

Maybe Pres Biden could fix the Alaska glitch in the CSO related legislation by Executive Order?

[cscurlock]

8 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The CSO remains in place until July 18.  It could be replaced by a newer version negotiated during mediation and then approved by the court.  The ruling could also be appealed and the judge's order stayed until resolution of the appeal.  More flux.  Any test cruises planned for anytime before July 18 will likely proceed.

 

What happens with the CSO will ultimately impact the threshold of infection provisions, so a turn back may not be required unless decided upon by the cruise ship itself.  The CDC's authority under the VSP remains in place notwithstanding yesterday's ruling, so theoretically if there is a major outbreak on board the ship could be quarantined at the port when it returns.

 

Alaska, I think, is a question mark.  The legislation requires a Conditional Sailing Certificate to take advantage of the exemption.  If the CSO is finally declared null and void, there is no Certificate. The legislation would have to be amended.  If it remains as "guidance only", there may be a way for ships to secure the Certificate voluntarily.  We will see.

I don't think the CDC will be negotiating.  They will probably wait until the 18th and then bring their data to the appeals court where multiple judges will be involved.  Since the judge basically said the CDC had the right to enforce the rules but then made them non binding which is unenforceable. Then requested a mediation to make new rules.  So if its unconstitutional according to the judge why didn't he just drop the CSO right now, why try and get a settlement?  I think the CDC is not looking to give a settlement they will just go straight to appeals. 

 

I think the Alaska cruises are pretty much toast.  Ships will not be leaving Seattle without some kind of rules and regulations.

Edited June 19, 2021 by cscurlock

[harkinmr]

Just now, TeeRick said:

Maybe Pres Biden could fix the Alaska glitch in the CSO related legislation by Executive Order?

I'm not sure he can do that.  Congress may have to resolve it by amending the language.  Tick tock.

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

I'm not sure he can do that.  Congress may have to resolve it by amending the language.  Tick tock.

Congress would need to pass new legislation which will surely be blocked especially now.

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

I don't think the CDC will be negotiating.  They will probably wait until the 18th and then bring their data to the appeals court where multiple judges will be involved.  Since the judge basically said the CDC had the right to enforce the rules but then made them non binding which is unenforceable. Then requested a mediation to make new rules.  So if its unconstitutional according to the judge why didn't he just drop the CSO right now, why try and get a settlement?  I think the CDC is not looking to give a settlement they will just go straight to appeals. 

That's the conundrum.  He is trying to split the baby.  If it's unconstitutional then it should be gone.  Immediately, not on July 18th, and certainly not left as "guidance".  The CDC will have to participate in the mediation.  It is mandated for both parties.  But I don't believe that precludes them from an immediate appeal of the order.  

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, cscurlock said:

Congress would need to pass new legislation which will surely be blocked especially now.

I'm not sure it would sail through (pun intended) as it did the last time.  Query whether the President would be reluctant to sign it if passed without some final resolution as to the constitutional authority question raised by the lower court.

[cscurlock]

Just now, harkinmr said:

That's the conundrum.  He is trying to split the baby.  If it's unconstitutional then it should be gone.  Immediately, not on July 18th, and certainly not left as "guidance".  The CDC will have to participate in the mediation.  It is mandated for both parties.  But I don't believe that precludes them from an immediate appeal of the order.  

Mediation didn't work then and mediation won't work now.  It would have been better for the judge to lay out what in the CSO is constitutional if some of it is.  If not then how do you know what to mediate?  Seems like the judge just wants the ruling to stay and not get appealed so hoping mediation will solve that for him by getting a settlement.  Unfortunately mediating something that the judge called unconstitutional seems like a path to nowhere.  Hence appeals courts seems like the only path forward.

[cscurlock]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

I'm not sure it would sail through (pun intended) as it did the last time.  Query whether the President would be reluctant to sign it if passed without some final resolution as to the constitutional authority question raised by the lower court.

I agree, they would probably be forced to really lay out the CSO as constitutional in the next bill instead of just mentioning the certificate.  That won't pass easily.

[Moonarino]

15 hours ago, Fouremco said:

LOL, of course the cruise lines stopped on their own accord when they were faced with a number of disastrous COVID outbreaks ... On the other hand, I believe that some of the delay in getting going again can be attributed to the cruise industry, seemingly not willing to cooperate with the CDC. ...

I can agree with "some" of the blame lying on the cruise industry, but from all my reading over the past many weeks it seemed much more like the CDC just wasn't listening... or was seemingly paralyzed with fear.. i.e., that remark that CDC director Walensky made, along the lines of dreading the "nightmare" that resumption of cruising might cause. Maybe not that word exactly but a similar sort of meltdown-ish fear. Distinctly, "fear" was the tone I extracted and remembered from her comment, wherever it was, can't recall now. Maybe she was thinking more of political ramifications than a covid-induced catastrophe, couldn't read her mind, don't know what she was actually thinking.

 

At any rate, I should probably say that the majority of my cruise-industry news has come from CC columns. And of course (measuring my words) CC might lean in a certain direction here... gracious hosts that they are! ... why we're all here in the first place.

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

Mediation didn't work then and mediation won't work now.  It would have been better for the judge to lay out what in the CSO is constitutional if some of it is.  If not then how do you know what to mediate?  Seems like the judge just wants the ruling to stay and not get appealed so hoping mediation will solve that for him by getting a settlement.  Unfortunately mediating something that the judge called unconstitutional seems like a path to nowhere.  Hence appeals courts seems like the only path forward.

I'm not sure mediation will work this time, just as it did not the last time.  If the CDC decides not to appeal immediately and proceeds with crafting a CSO more acceptable to the judge then it may end it right there.  But there is an open question as to what, if anything, will be acceptable.  The judge has once again kicked the can down the road and thrown the restart into somewhat of a tailspin.  I expect an appeal and a lot of flux until that is resolved.

[cscurlock]

5 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

I'm not sure mediation will work this time, just as it did not the last time.  If the CDC decides not to appeal immediately and proceeds with crafting a CSO more acceptable to the judge then it may end it right there.  But there is an open question as to what, if anything, will be acceptable.  The judge has once again kicked the can down the road and thrown the restart into somewhat of a tailspin.  I expect an appeal and a lot of flux until that is resolved.

They will probably have to wait till July 18th to make the appeal.  Lets hope a 3 judge appeals panel will have better jurisprudence when looking at the data and constitutionality.  

[wrk2cruise]

From the way I understood it the injunction only makes the CSO unenforceable in FL.   I don't think it has any effect on Alaska sailings.

[TeeRick]

23 minutes ago, Moonarino said:

I can agree with "some" of the blame lying on the cruise industry, but from all my reading over the past many weeks it seemed much more like the CDC just wasn't listening... or was seemingly paralyzed with fear.. i.e., that remark that CDC director Walensky made, along the lines of dreading the "nightmare" that resumption of cruising might cause. Maybe not that word exactly but a similar sort of meltdown-ish fear. Distinctly, "fear" was the tone I extracted and remembered from her comment, wherever it was, can't recall now. Maybe she was thinking more of political ramifications than a covid-induced catastrophe, couldn't read her mind, don't know what she was actually thinking.

 

At any rate, I should probably say that the majority of my cruise-industry news has come from CC columns. And of course (measuring my words) CC might lean in a certain direction here... gracious hosts that they are! ... why we're all here in the first place.

I think the quote you are referring to by Dr. Walensky was from March and warned of "impending doom".  But since then CDC and Dr Walensky have really modified their positions to take the high rate of vaccinations into their communications and recommendations in the US since that time.  We vaccinated folks are doing most things now in a pretty normal-life way.

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210329/cdc-directdor-warns-of-impending-doom-as-cases-rise