Port taxes and fees too high

[The Traveling Man]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, this has changed.  It now depends on what the ratio of PC/UMS (Panama Canal/Universal Measurement System tonnage (usually close to Net Tonnage) divided by the passenger capacity is.  Small ships pay by the passenger capacity, but ships of the 150,000 GT and above, pay by the PC/UMS tonnage.  And, the last time I looked at the tariff per passenger berth, it was more like $140-$160.  Now, there are also ancillary costs like tugs, inspections, line handlers, etc, but I think the Sky would be closer to the $500k range, under the new rules (which are higher for smaller vessels than before, while the larger ships pay less than before).

 

But, any  Panama Canal cruise will have far higher taxes and fees than any other cruise anywhere in the world.  That $500k I mentioned for the Sky would be just the taxes and fees for the Canal, other ports would add other taxes and fees. 

Thanks for the update.  It has been a couple of years since our last Panama Canal cruise, but I remember the park ranger, or guide, or ambassador, or whatever they called themself, who provided ongoing narration during our transit explaining the way they calculated the fee at that time.

[Sailing12Away]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Was the first cruise booked through a travel agent, and the second look booked directly?  If that is the case, the travel agent took the "non-commissionable fare" portion out of the advertised fare, and included it in "port taxes, fees, expenses".  They are allowed to do this, it allows them to advertise a much lower fare up front, but the bottom end looks pretty much the same.

Hence why I never understand why some folks swear by them and claim they're always 'better'.

 

It's like going to buy a car and they ask you what monthly price you want to pay. Sure, they can get your payments down to only $200/month, but you're paying an extra 5K above sticker price for it to happen meaning over the long run you're paying way more.

[DaCruiseBug]

NCL has considerably higher "port taxes and fees" than all the other cruise lines because they overinflate the charges and funnel them to their coffers.

 

Don't believe me?

 

Ask NCL for a breakdown of what the specific amount of port taxes and fees are for your itinerary...they'll refuse to tell you.

 

What they do for example when they have a stop at GSC is have their umbrella company that handles GSC charge considerably more than normal and in turn that money makes its way back into the same bank accounts that NCL has. Compare an identical itinerary with CCL/RCL and NCL where the only difference is that each cruise line stops at its own private island and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, DaCruiseBug said:

Ask NCL for a breakdown of what the specific amount of port taxes and fees are for your itinerary...they'll refuse to tell you.

Will any cruise line do this?  Considering that there was a class action lawsuit a couple of decades ago regarding port taxes and fees, not sure against which line, but from that there is a strictly defined list of things they can include in the "port taxes and fees" category.  If you think NCL is skimming this "to their coffers", then here's your legal angle to get them.

[sailorusvi]

10 hours ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

 

Ask NCL for a breakdown of what the specific amount of port taxes and fees are for your itinerary...they'll refuse to tell you.

 

 

 

This is something they could possibly give you after the cruise, but not before and I'm not sure the front line phone employees would even have access. 

 

Reason being there are so many factors that go into port fees.  Tonnage, passenger/crew counts, docking or tendering, which dock, how long at port, etc. Even arriving on a holiday can trigger additional costs. 

 

I use to sail from the USVI to the BVI almost daily for 15 years.  Even I couldn't give you the exact amount it would be and I the paperwork (which the port fees also covered).  I could get close, but not exact.  Sometimes what we paid was based on who was doing the paperwork.  I.e. some agents would charge us "overtime" for being in port passed 4, when we always left around 2-2:30 in order to get back to US immigration.  Others not. 

 

Not saying they are not getting extra money out of the deal, but calculating the per passenger cost are not as easy as you would think.  Especially in some of these smaller islands when sometimes they make up numbers on the fly.

Edited January 27, 2023 by sailorusvi

[cruiseny4life]

14 hours ago, Sailing12Away said:

Hence why I never understand why some folks swear by them and claim they're always 'better'.

 

It's like going to buy a car and they ask you what monthly price you want to pay. Sure, they can get your payments down to only $200/month, but you're paying an extra 5K above sticker price for it to happen meaning over the long run you're paying way more.

We're not all grossly misleading! I've definitely heard and seen this occur, but many of us (myself included) include the NCF in the first quote sent to clients. My quote matches what NCL's consumer website shows. No discounts from me unless I love ya and throw in OBC or flowers or strawberries. 

 

I won't say we're better, but we do know exactly which department to call to fix an issue with a reservation. 

[RocketMan275]

22 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

We're not all grossly misleading! I've definitely heard and seen this occur, but many of us (myself included) include the NCF in the first quote sent to clients. My quote matches what NCL's consumer website shows. No discounts from me unless I love ya and throw in OBC or flowers or strawberries. 

 

I won't say we're better, but we do know exactly which department to call to fix an issue with a reservation. 

My favorite TA does the same, providing me with her invoice which matches the invoice from NCL which she also provides.  Then she lowers the fare by 8% excluding the NCF portion.

[Jim40]

I did mock bookings NCL and RCCL out of Miami to private island and Nassau , NCL $149 more in taxes and port charges .

[sailorusvi]

1 minute ago, Jim40 said:

I did mock bookings NCL and RCCL out of Miami to private island and Nassau , NCL $149 more in taxes and port charges .

 

Same tonnage ship?  Same amount of passengers/crew?  Same day of the week?  Same dock?  Literally one or more of those things could trigger a difference.  

 

In the BVI arriving on Sunday or a holiday would trigger OT costs.  We could take the same amount of passengers on Saturday and Sunday and the fees would be different. 

 

Port fees/taxes are not a linear as everyone wants them to be.

 

[DaCruiseBug]

4 hours ago, Jim40 said:

I did mock bookings NCL and RCCL out of Miami to private island and Nassau , NCL $149 more in taxes and port charges .

 

Bingo!

 

So NCL sets up a shell company to operate GSC that charges NCL double or triple what the standard rate is for services and "port fees" compared to the other private islands. Those increased costs are passed onto the consumer as "port fees" and the shell company ends up raking in a ton more in revenue from it. All perfectly legal.

 

Some will try to find any and all excuses to justify NCL doing this but the reality is that the actual port fees for each cruise lines are very similar. Imagine RCL finding out that NCL is paying only 1/2 what they are...not gonna happen.

[DaCruiseBug]

4 hours ago, sailorusvi said:

 

Same tonnage ship?  Same amount of passengers/crew?  Same day of the week?  Same dock?  Literally one or more of those things could trigger a difference.  

 

In the BVI arriving on Sunday or a holiday would trigger OT costs.  We could take the same amount of passengers on Saturday and Sunday and the fees would be different. 

 

Port fees/taxes are not a linear as everyone wants them to be.

 

 

If the difference was 5-10% I could MAYBE see it as justifiable. But it isn't 5-10%. It's more like 70%+

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, DaCruiseBug said:

So NCL sets up a shell company to operate GSC that charges NCL double or triple what the standard rate is for services and "port fees" compared to the other private islands.

Sorry to burst your conspiracy bubble, but "port taxes and fees"  cannot include charges to other than governmental or quasi-governmental agencies (like a pilot's association, that has a governmental license to operate).  Many people think that things like line handlers, garbage removal, water, and so forth are part of "port taxes and fees", but those are operational costs, and cannot be part of the "taxes and fees".  Since the private islands are part of the Bahamas, the only entity that sees income from "port taxes and fees" is the Bahamian government.

[sailorusvi]

2 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

If the difference was 5-10% I could MAYBE see it as justifiable. But it isn't 5-10%. It's more like 70%+

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Some will try to find any and all excuses to justify NCL doing this but the reality is that the actual port fees for each cruise lines are very similar. Imagine RCL finding out that NCL is paying only 1/2 what they are...not gonna happen.

 

 

Already happens.  Cruise lines can negotiate port fees (typically in a contract for a few years).  Yep, in addition to all the other stuff (tonnage, passenger counts, etc), they could have also negotiated better fees/taxes.   You come to an island year round, you will get better rates than just winter ones.   I doubt it's 1/2, but all those difference can add up.

[DaCruiseBug]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry to burst your conspiracy bubble, but "port taxes and fees"  cannot include charges to other than governmental or quasi-governmental agencies (like a pilot's association, that has a governmental license to operate).  Many people think that things like line handlers, garbage removal, water, and so forth are part of "port taxes and fees", but those are operational costs, and cannot be part of the "taxes and fees".  Since the private islands are part of the Bahamas, the only entity that sees income from "port taxes and fees" is the Bahamian government.

 

Hmm not quite...you forgot something...

 

"Taxes, Fees & Port Expenses, as used by us, may include any and all fees, charges, tolls and taxes imposed on us by governmental or quasi-governmental authorities, as well third party fees and charges arising from a vessel's presence in a harbor or port."

 

You forgot the "as well as third party fees and charges arising from a vessel's presence in a harbor or port."

 

Luckily, Princess cruises has it all on their website...

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by DaCruiseBug

[DaCruiseBug]

8 minutes ago, sailorusvi said:

 

 

 

 

 

Already happens.  Cruise lines can negotiate port fees (typically in a contract for a few years).  Yep, in addition to all the other stuff (tonnage, passenger counts, etc), they could have also negotiated better fees/taxes.   You come to an island year round, you will get better rates than just winter ones.   I doubt it's 1/2, but all those difference can add up.

 

Like I said, the difference may be 5-10% more...but not 70%+

 

Each cruise line knows exactly what the other cruise line is paying thanks to the CLIA.

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

You forgot the "as well as third party fees and charges arising from a vessel's presence in a harbor or port."

Yes, those are things like stevedoring (handling baggage and stores) and security services.  So, NCL is charging hundreds of dollars more per person to have non-existent longshoremen and security personnel?  And, those third party concerns are required by the port authority, not NCL.  I really love how everyone gets on the hate FDR bandwagon and makes everything a way for NCL to make huge profits.  Done here, had enough tin foil hat for now.

Edited January 27, 2023 by chengkp75

[DaCruiseBug]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, those are things like stevedoring (handling baggage and stores) and security services.  So, NCL is charging hundreds of dollars more per person to have non-existent longshoremen and security personnel?  And, those third party concerns are required by the port authority, not NCL.  I really love how everyone gets on the hate FDR bandwagon and makes everything a way for NCL to make huge profits.  Done here, had enough tin foil hat for now.

 

This is what it can also include...

 

"Taxes, Fees & Port Expenses may include U.S. Customs fees, head taxes, Panama Canal tolls, dockage fees, wharfage fees, inspection fees, pilotage, air taxes, hotel or VAT taxes incurred as part of a land tour, immigration and naturalization fees, and Internal Revenue Service fees, as well as fees for navigation, berthing, stevedoring, baggage handling/storage and security services. "

 

Lots of room for a large corporation like NCL to make money by using the model I posted about for stops in GSC. Maybe stop trying to defend them so much?

 

It has nothing to do with having a tin foil hat but when most cruise lines charge X amount of dollars in port taxes and fees and NCL is usually X+60-70% then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that something fishy is going on. If it looks a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...it's probably not an elephant.

[sailorusvi]

1 hour ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

If the difference was 5-10% I could MAYBE see it as justifiable. But it isn't 5-10%. It's more like 70%+

 

It does matter.

 

Some taxes/fees are fixed  (typically based on tonnage and/or length) and would be dived by all passengers.  Others like the departure tax are often per passenger.  

 

If your fixed fee is $1000 and you have 100 passengers the per person price is $10.  If you have 200 passengers is now $5 per person.   

 

If you happened to come in on a holiday your fixed costs are now 1100 ($100 for holiday OT fee).  Your 100 passengers would be paying $11 or $5.50 for 200 passengers.  A 10% increase simply for arriving on a different day.

 

I'm not saying there isn't some skimming off the top, but these things are not a cut and dry as you want them to be.   Give us 2 identical ships (length/tonnage), same passenger counts, same dock, on the same day and let us know what you come up with,   until then it's all a guessing game as there are way too many variables on how these are calculated.