Rhine water levels 2022 and similar topics

[floridababa]

6 hours ago, Cleopatra99 said:

Thank you for all of your excellent advice. We are thinking of booking Basel to Amsterdam with Scenic ("Romantic Rhine and Moselle'). From what I have read it seems low bridges and low water are less of an issue on the Moselle ... but what should we expect on the Rhine along that itinerary ?

We were suppose to be on that cruise since yesterday but scenic canceled. So much for moselle  not being impacted

 

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

5 hours ago, notamermaid said:

If you are looking for a river cruise on the big rivers of Europe without any issues - well forget it. If you go for reduction of risk and inconvenience to the absolute minimum either go for Amsterdam to Trier or look beyond Germany to the Netherlands/Belgium or the Rhone and Seine. Not too sure about low bridges on both French rivers but they have not been mentioned as far as I can recall. But that is taking us elsewhere - back to the Rhine.

There is a low bridge just north of Lyons on the Saône, but the Rhône from Lyons all the way south has no low bridge issues.  No low bridges on the Seine either.

[OwenSmith]

8 hours ago, floridababa said:

We were suppose to be on that cruise since yesterday but scenic canceled. So much for moselle  not being impacted

But that is a 14 day Rhine and Moselle cruise, between Amsterdam and Basel. Scenic were probably concerned about the Rhine.

[OwenSmith]

5 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

There is a low bridge just north of Lyons on the Saône, but the Rhône from Lyons all the way south has no low bridge issues.  No low bridges on the Seine either.

We did an 11 day Saone and Rhone cruise on Scenic. The captains on that cruise said there are no problems with low water on those rivers.

[notamermaid]

Brief update. Kaub gauge at 118cm. That is almost spot on with the forecast. So it makes sense to look at tomorrow: 110cm and less. Friday 100cm and likely dropping below that by lunchtime. Saturday, wellll... okay I will say it: the dreaded 90cm appears and the river is on a down trend.

 

We really need that rain on Saturday and this time along the Main and actually in the Gorge please.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

@floridababa You have been very unfortunate to have not been able to sail that itinerary and that Scenic cancelled it.

5 minutes ago, OwenSmith said:

But that is a 14 day Rhine and Moselle cruise, between Amsterdam and Basel. Scenic were probably concerned about the Rhine.

It is a long itinerary and at least half the days will be on the Rhine. So yes, I reckon it was easier and quite frankly IMO better for Scenic to be straightforward and cancel if they cannot get this itinerary to run smoothly.

 

I said that Amsterdam to Trier is a good choice but the Rhine river got so low that many ships did not even go to Koblenz. That may have been for safety partially or it was logistically impractical. So that would also mean no turning onto the Moselle. It is rare but can happen. Scenic may or may not have been able to change the itinerary to Amsterdam to Trier/Remich and back but with people having to get to Basel for flights (or Amsterdam vice versa) this could be a logistical nightmare. Viking got round that by going Trier to Koblenz and then hotel/boatel to get people to Basel. Which on that advertised itinerary (Paris to Trier to Basel) meant a rather curtailed sailing experience. As an example. Does one prefer sailing for a short time and then switch to hotel or does one prefer not going on the cruise at all, i.e. is content with the company's decision not to sail, however disappointing this may be? I do not know and because for me the embarkation port for a Rhine cruise is just a decent train ride away it would not be fair of me to comment further.

 

This year the situation is extreme. Two weeks ago the Rhine Gorge was impossible to sail for large ships and the other German stretches became a bit "complicated" (very much depending on individual ship and the connected logistics of embarkation). As an alternative a river cruise company could have parked a 135m ship on the Moselle at Koblenz for embarkation. This believe it or not could have been unimpeded sailing to your heart's content all the way up to Remich in Luxembourg and back - unless more than one company decided to do that and the ships used up all available docking spaces.

 

The Moselle has a beautiful landscape and some say they overall prefer that river to the Rhine. In the past I have found it a pity that not more itineraries concentrate on the Moselle, the Dutch and British companies go for that a bit more, i.e. spend more time on that river, like on an itinerary going Cologne to Trier and back for example. Guess what, apart from bike and barge cruise, a few cruises and more than there used to be start in Koblenz, this year Viva Cruises is going for the Moselle experience, that is Koblenz up the Moselle and return to Koblenz, just four nights but fun to do I should think. Especially the Christmas market version of it. Or the seven nighter Düsseldorf to Trier/Riol return. Which by the way, just like Amsterdam to Trier, is a wise choice of itinerary to try and avoid an impacted cruise in low water of course.

 

Well, enough blather on that topic from me 😁, you all get my point. Many things to consider when choosing your itinerary and many choices out there besides the Amsterdam to Basel classic seven night/eight day route.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

 

[OwenSmith]

51 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

Brief update. Kaub gauge at 118cm. That is almost spot on with the forecast. So it makes sense to look at tomorrow: 110cm and less. Friday 100cm and likely dropping below that by lunchtime. Saturday, wellll... okay I will say it: the dreaded 90cm appears and the river is on a down trend.

 

We really need that rain on Saturday and this time along the Main and actually in the Gorge please.

 

notamermaid

What happens when Kaub gets to 90cm? We should be there Saturday or Sunday (I forget which).

[notamermaid]

9 minutes ago, OwenSmith said:

What happens when Kaub gets to 90cm? We should be there Saturday or Sunday (I forget which).

Ah, yes. Nothing as such, but I call it vigilance. 93cm is the official low water mark at which figure the green dot on the gauge map turns into an orange dot. In the past I have observed that 90cm on the gauge when it is not raining and the river is on a downward trend is noteworthy and soon after that a few ships may need to change their docking location as they cannot safely reach their landing stages and generally speaking sail more slowly, potentially creating short delays in an itinerary.

 

 I realize it sounded too dramatic, sorry about that, and I shall change how I report on it.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[gentlemancruiser]

Forecast looks someone promising for rain on Saturday.  This may help relieve the low water

[loge23]

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

The Moselle has a beautiful landscape and some say they overall prefer that river to the Rhine.

Indeed! The Rhine is all about castles, the Moselle is about steeply raked vineyards and lush landscapes. Both are wonderful but the Moselle is country, the Rhine is town. 

[geekette]

We're crossing all our fingers and toes, hoping that our Amsterdam to Basel cruise will go as planned in two weeks.  

I noticed that the Sigrun, the ship we're scheduled to sail out of Amsterdam, is currently in Basel instead of Amsterdam.  So if (big if) the ships continue to do the full sailing, I assume we'll be on her sister ship (probably the Einar, although there are 3 in Amsterdam right now).

As much as my 87 year old Mom seems to want the novelty of a ship swap (seriously?), I'd rather sail through the Rhine gorge, myself...
 

[RDVIK2016]

13 minutes ago, geekette said:

We're crossing all our fingers and toes, hoping that our Amsterdam to Basel cruise will go as planned in two weeks.  

I noticed that the Sigrun, the ship we're scheduled to sail out of Amsterdam, is currently in Basel instead of Amsterdam.  So if (big if) the ships continue to do the full sailing, I assume we'll be on her sister ship (probably the Einar, although there are 3 in Amsterdam right now).

As much as my 87 year old Mom seems to want the novelty of a ship swap (seriously?), I'd rather sail through the Rhine gorge, myself...
 

You are probably right about it being Einar.  Sigrun and Einar were paired up for a round or two of ship swaps because they were scheduled to start a opposite ends of Rhine Getaway cruises on the same day.

 

I think the ship swaps are very efficient and well-planned, although long bus rides are not something to look forward to. However it sounds like your Mom has a good attitude. Some 87 year olds (and many much younger) seem to be a bit fearful or at least very irritated at the prospect. It also seems not everyone is aware that a disruption could occur and have not prepared themselves for it. All you can do is make the best of it.

[notamermaid]

1 hour ago, loge23 said:

Indeed! The Rhine is all about castles, the Moselle is about steeply raked vineyards and lush landscapes. Both are wonderful but the Moselle is country, the Rhine is town. 

You know, that is a very short and succinct comparison. Like it very much. Thank you.

 

37 minutes ago, geekette said:

As much as my 87 year old Mom seems to want the novelty of a ship swap (seriously?), I'd rather sail through the Rhine gorge, myself...

What a great mindset to have, puts all those moaning, grumbling 70 year olds in their place... I think on balance I would also prefer to sail and on the luxurious ship rather than the excursion boat, as fun as it can be.

 

4 hours ago, gentlemancruiser said:

Forecast looks someone promising for rain on Saturday.  This may help relieve the low water

Thanks for the European weather map. Really interesting to look at. I see Hamburg people may be drenched with rain, for our Rhine it is a bit more difficult to make out. It is not clear to me how much will go the Rhine river basin.

 

I had a look at the weather map just before I posted and notice that drizzle to moderate rainfall could happen on Friday, but a good amount of rain could come down on Saturday, with pockets of heavy rain in Hesse and Rhineland-Palatinate. No downpours in the Upper Rhine valley. This scenario I would say is reflected in the graph at Maxau, which has been adjusted and now shows no further spike and rise but just a gradual decline, very slowly, due to widespread rain over the whole basin further upstream keeping a higher volume of water going. Which could be all we need to keep Kaub at a sufficient level for sailing through the Rhine Gorge over the weekend and into next week.

 

Quick look: Kaub continues the slow decline, 114cm, all good. Emmerich 48cm. Now that is certainly much better than it was.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by notamermaid
correction

[notamermaid]

Fun with Maths - and Geography

 

Those ship swaps got me thinking and and I keep wondering why some ships came from Basel down to Strasbourg or to Speyer or to Mainz or even as far downstream as Rüdesheim. Okay, we know now that the ships have their individual differences and it seems clear that while Viking did not make it to Rüdesheim from early on Amawaterways still sailed down there. The last week before the level rose again I did not spot any of those either but I may have missed one or two. Gradually all the ports from just past Iffezheim to the Rhine Gorge must become inaccessible with the fall in water levels, but why did Viking choose Strasbourg and why so early? Safety? Convenience? And likewise, why Cologne so early and not Engers, Andernach, Königswinter or Bonn? Are their ships really lying so much deeper in the water? I will probably never find out, but the point is that many passengers have spent a large amount of time on a coach rather than on a ship. You may of course not mind. I just wanted to know what it looks like on the ground and in distances. If it is just a question of getting from Strasbourg to Cologne fast, yes, that is a doable distance in a day. But what about the actual distance, the sailing kilometres you have missed? I wanted to find out and first had a look at a map. I chose marinetraffic with the passenger ships filtered in, as that gives you a nice idea where the course of the Rhine is:

 

A couple of notes: I think the river cruise ships dock where the word Basel is and just under that. The last blue dot, i.e. towards the East must be an excursion boat. Strasbourg dock is underneath the word Strasbourg, Cologne has tons of blue dots, the Waal, where ships sail, is underneath the word Netherlands I think and then you look at Utrecht and Amsterdam. Now, from a certain day onwards and with several itineraries Viking did not sail the stretch Strasbourg to Cologne. That looks to be a third of the itinerary to me. But the map is only a rough estimate, so I calculated the Rhine, Waal and Canal kilometres, as best as I could.

 

And that is interesting. Naturally, some places have an embankment on the Rhine for several kilometres so please do not nail me down on one or two less or more. Here goes:

1. From Basel dock at Klybeckquai at km169 - sail to Strasbourg/Kehl dock at km293 - makes 124km sailed

2. Strasbourg/Kehl to Cologne unsailed

3. Cologne dock at km687 (near railway bridge) - sail to turn-off Rhine Amsterdam Canal at km913 - sail Canal for 72km (if sailing the whole length) - makes 298km sailed

 

So in all that is 422 kilometres that have been sailed. And the unsailed part from 293 to 687 is how many kilometres? You can work it out and find out the percentage between sailed and unsailed. I was surprised. I am still so surprised that I think the maths must be wrong.

 

Over to you: could I be wrong?

 

By the way, the Rhine Gorge is officially about 65km long, The UNESCO world heritage site is slightly longer, 67km.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[geekette]

That does look like an awful lot of sailing missing.

Pardon my lack of geographical knowledge, but where along the Rhine is this gorge?  And what's been missed is along where I've drawn the red line?

Those blue arrows are all the Viking ships along the Rhine, so at least they're sailing for now!

 

[gentlemancruiser]

Regarding ship tracking apps & websites.  I've noticed that frequently ships don't report for days or their location never changes.  The  when they do start reporting again they've travelling a far distance.   Sometimes the reporting is working for 1/2 days and then nothing for 3/4 days. 

[Yorkshireoldlad]

2 minutes ago, geekette said:

That does look like an awful lot of sailing missing.

Pardon my lack of geographical knowledge, but where along the Rhine is this gorge?  And what's been missed is along where I've drawn the red line?

Those blue arrows are all the Viking ships along the Rhine, so at least they're sailing for now!

 

What software / app did you use to show just the Viking boats?  I can find an individual Viking cruiser using  vessel finder.com, but I haven’t found anything ( or at least anything free!) that would reproduce h what you have done..

[geekette]

14 minutes ago, Yorkshireoldlad said:

What software / app did you use to show just the Viking boats?  I can find an individual Viking cruiser using  vessel finder.com, but I haven’t found anything ( or at least anything free!) that would reproduce h what you have done..

Cruisemapper.com. On the left, unselect all, then select Viking.  If you zoom in, it covers the map with ports, so I had to zoom out to get it clean enough to understand.

(I don't know how accurate the tracks are, TBH)

Edited August 24, 2022 by geekette

[notamermaid]

7 minutes ago, gentlemancruiser said:

Regarding ship tracking apps & websites.  I've noticed that frequently ships don't report for days or their location never changes.  The  when they do start reporting again they've travelling a far distance.   Sometimes the reporting is working for 1/2 days and then nothing for 3/4 days. 

Yes, that is important to note.

 

@geekette on your map you have marked Strasbourg to Koblenz. Viking did that, then they switched to the even longer swap, i.e. your red line would extend down(stream) to Cologne. Within that section is the Rhine Gorge that you need to bypass when it cannot be sailed on a river cruise ship, i.e. you swap ships and do that stretch with the famous castles on an excursion boat, by rail or by car/coach. I copied it, again with all passenger ships in:

 

Bingen to Koblenz. When you enlarge your map, you will find Bingen on your map south of Koblenz accordingly.

 

notamermaid

 

[geekette]

So the red is the gorge, and the blue is the length of the Rhine that they didn't sail (and we might not)?

Yikes. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by geekette

[notamermaid]

13 minutes ago, geekette said:

So the red is the gorge, and the blue is the length of the Rhine that they didn't sail (and we might not)?

Worst case scenario, yes. That is one neat little map with drawing you have posted. Thank you. Great to visualize what might happen, might in only when the water is very low. Hopefully it will not happen at all. It did happen to a few itineraries, people did just that about 10 days ago. It may just be Speyer to Koblenz ship swapping, I honestly expect them to happen again, meaning that the level will get so low that ship swaps are needed. I think I am not the only one. It is only August, we have a long September in front of us.

 

notamermaid

 

[Yorkshireoldlad]

1 hour ago, geekette said:

Cruisemapper.com. On the left, unselect all, then select Viking.  If you zoom in, it covers the map with ports, so I had to zoom out to get it clean enough to understand.

(I don't know how accurate the tracks are, TBH)

Thanks. Much appreciated.

[notamermaid]

Brief update this lunchtime only. Lake Constance slowly but steadily loosing water again. Maxau at 404cm, expected to fall below 390cm on Saturday, continuing a slow, steady decline. Kaub at 106cm. Forecast for tomorrow 100cm to 98cm. Potentially less. Saturday 90cm likely.

 

Good amounts of rain forecast for tomorrow over Lake Constance. The Rhine valley - mediocre rainfall.

 

notamermaid

 

 

[notamermaid]

In the Rhine Gorge, not all of it but we will leave it at that for simplicity, the navigation channel depth maintained by the authorities is the lowest in the whole navigable Rhine, 1.90m. The other sections are 2.10m or more. So why not just dredge? Sorry, not possible. A riff, rocks and gravel banks as well as the tight bends make it a very difficult stretch, especially seeing that whatever you do will have an effect just a little bit downstream and that is often not calculable. Quite literally, you cannot just do it with a computer model.

 

But the desire to deepen the channel to 2.10m is there, and the plan is going ahead. The word is "Abladeoptimierung". Basically alter the river so that the loading capacity of ships is increased. In this low water situation it has been easier to survey the area with laser and all sorts of hightech. Very useful. That data and the real life 3D to scale model of the Rhine in a "warehouse" in Karlsruhe will very much help the hydrologists work out how to best achieve the "Abladeoptimierung". The project will still take several years to complete.

 

That's it for now, but I will get back to that topic.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:07 PM, notamermaid said:

Talking of engineers in Karlsruhe. They have a standard idea/solution for the Rhine Gorge. Here is the German word for what they want to do in their project: "Abladeoptimierung". I will explain this in another post.

I explained the idea in basic terms in the post above. Let us get a bit deeper into the technical aspects and on the right of the explanatory article is a photo of the model of the "Jungferngrund" shallows (rocks) at Oberwesel, which I have mentioned before.  And the caption gives us the English title of the project: project "Abladeoptimierung Mittelrhein, AOMR" (Optimisation of load draughts on the Middle Rhine).

https://wiki.baw.de/en/index.php/Hydraulic_Modelling

 

Fascinating. I seriously think they should offer guided tours of that facility.

 

notamermaid