NCL to allow unvaccinated children beginning March 1

[jerseygirl3]

4 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

I don’t believe this to be true. Cruise lines are easing protocols in order to attract more consumers. It is estimated that only 20% of adults will choose to vaccinate their children who are under 5. It’s business. 

Well they currently require 5 and anove to be vaccinated, so im sure when the age is lowered  they will require them as well. 

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, jerseygirl3 said:

Well they currently require 5 and anove to be vaccinated, so im sure when the age is lowered  they will require them as well. 

I’m genuinely curious how you can you be so sure? Just 2 days ago they required 💯 vaccination but that protocol was relaxed.

[rabidstoat]

I think 'no masks' will be good in that there won't be (well, shouldn't be) tension over people whether they're wearing masks or not. There will be no one going in with the expectation that the mask mandate requirement will be enforced, and then get upset when it isn't and people are unmasked. It'll be a known state right from the start.

 

That said, I'm not sure if I'll wear a mask some crowded places inside (elevators and queueing to disembark are ones I can think of) or not. And it's not really just because of COVID. Usually when I cruise I come back with a bad cold about 80% of the time. But when I cruised in November, with masks, I didn't. Though I honestly don't know if masks help with colds or if it's all about hand-washing and not touching your face. 

[UKstages]

8 hours ago, bigrednole said:

I thought the casinos were non-smoking to begin with except the special smoking casino.

 

only the relatively newer ships in the fleet, e.g. the bliss, have non-smoking casinos with a small, separate enclosed smoking section.

 

1 hour ago, rabidstoat said:

I think 'no masks' will be good in that there won't be (well, shouldn't be) tension over people whether they're wearing masks or not. There will be no one going in with the expectation that the mask mandate requirement will be enforced, and then get upset when it isn't and people are unmasked. It'll be a known state right from the start.

 

...Usually when I cruise I come back with a bad cold about 80% of the time. But when I cruised in November, with masks, I didn't. Though I honestly don't know if masks help with colds or if it's all about hand-washing and not touching your face. 

 

no, there will be nobody going in with the expectation that masks will be required or enforced... but - conversely - there may be people mocking those who choose to wear masks. i've seen it onboard; i've experienced it personally.

 

masks help prevent colds, absolutely! i haven't had one in two years. i used to laugh at the employees at NRT (tokyo airport) every time i flew through there pre-covid... they were always masked. now, i know why. in america, we think wearing a mask is weird. there are other countries around the world in which wearing a mask pre-covid was commonplace. 

[kitkat343]

10 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

I’m genuinely curious how you can you be so sure? Just 2 days ago they required 💯 vaccination but that protocol was relaxed.

Prior to covid, almost all cruise lines refused to allow children under the age of one to sail with 3 days at sea because young children can get very sick very quickly, and no cruise line wants the responsibility of having a previously healthy 7 month old die on a ship.

 

If vaccines for children under 5 are available, I think the cruise lines will mandate them (like they do for kids 5-17) because it reduces the risk of serious covid that leads to hospitalization or death.   A healthy 4 year old dying of covid on a cruise ship would lead to a lot of negative publicity, and NCL will be able to reduce the chances of that happening by mandating vaccines.   The CDC already has the cruise line industry in its crosshairs because cruise ships are - understandably - a place where outbreaks of any disease can quickly spread (prior to Covid, there were periodic noro outbreaks).  If NCL doesn't take reasonable precautions such as requiring a vaccine when it is available, the CDC may start imposing more penalties on them, and the media will make them look terrible for not mandating a vaccine if a child dies.    

Edited February 10, 2022 by kitkat343

[Hutcha]

2 hours ago, kitkat343 said:

Prior to covid, almost all cruise lines refused to allow children under the age of one to sail with 3 days at sea because young children can get very sick very quickly, and no cruise line wants the responsibility of having a previously healthy 7 month old die on a ship.

 

If vaccines for children under 5 are available, I think the cruise lines will mandate them (like they do for kids 5-17) because it reduces the risk of serious covid that leads to hospitalization or death.   A healthy 4 year old dying of covid on a cruise ship would lead to a lot of negative publicity, and NCL will be able to reduce the chances of that happening by mandating vaccines.   The CDC already has the cruise line industry in its crosshairs because cruise ships are - understandably - a place where outbreaks of any disease can quickly spread (prior to Covid, there were periodic noro outbreaks).  If NCL doesn't take reasonable precautions such as requiring a vaccine when it is available, the CDC may start imposing more penalties on them, and the media will make them look terrible for not mandating a vaccine if a child dies.    

Out of almost 1 million deaths, 296 are in the under 5 column. How many died with covid vs that being a contributing factor? Point is, like many others have made, there's a very large percentage of parents that will not vaccinate their young children. NCL needs those passengers.

 

Given you logic, why does RCL let under 12 go unvaccinated?

[aubreyc1988]

Here is my 2 cents, as someone who is vaccinated, prefers vaccinated only sort of activities, doesn't make a  fuss about wearing masks,  doesn't have kids, but isn't overly bothered by them most of the time.

 

I don't mind kids on cruiseships in general, so while the less number of kids onboard is certainly a positive for us, I never really minded kids of cruises even pre Covid.

 

Kids under the age of 5 are ineligible for the vaccine and might be for some time, so I understand the logical decision to test everyone and let the 5 and under kids board unvaccinated. I also understand that vacation time is coming up and that they needed to have this happen for business purposes.

 

I have a strong feeling that whenever the the vaccine is approved for 5 and under, they will require it to board and I fully support that. 

 

regardless whatever you think about masks, vaccines, etc, I think everyone has to admit that NCL has been decently consistent about their stance on vaccination and health and safety. 

 

 

 

[tupperstamper]

The FDA is meeting February 15th to discuss approval for emergency use of Pfizer for 6 month - 5 year. It is expected to be approved.

[At Sea At Peace]

27 minutes ago, tupperstamper said:

The FDA is meeting February 15th to discuss approval for emergency use of Pfizer for 6 month - 5 year. It is expected to be approved.

 

It certainly isn't an apropos "emergency use" when the subject population is not at any risk.  Then again, it's a governmental regulatory body so such facts weigh little in the political science of it all.

 

If one has noticed the resistance from parents of 5-12 year old children, this next age group resistance will be quite higher.

 

Using the term 'resistance' as interlaced with 'based on each parents assessment of the available information and the governments performance to date.'

 

😉

 

As an aside, I'd like to see a cruise line 'designate sailings' or 'ships' by ala carte protocols.

 

1.  This cruise/ship is 100% vaccinated, masked, prior negative testing required.

2.  This cruise/ship is 100% vaccinated, no masks, prior negative testing required.

3.  This cruise/ship is OPEN to all, prior negative testing required.

 

Etc. ~ Let the market (customers) decide.

[BermudaBound2014]

48 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

As an aside, I'd like to see a cruise line 'designate sailings' or 'ships' by ala carte protocols.

 

1.  This cruise/ship is 100% vaccinated, masked, prior negative testing required.

2.  This cruise/ship is 100% vaccinated, no masks, prior negative testing required.

3.  This cruise/ship is OPEN to all, prior negative testing required.

 

Etc. ~ Let the market (customers) decide.

I first proposed this niche market strategy last July and the hostility was palatable lol.
 

Niche market offerings make sense as cruise lines try to figure out what the market will support.  Not sure how many remember, but this is exactly what cruise lines did as they experimented with making the ships smoke free. 
 

NCl experimented with requiring 100% vaccination for a few months. Obviously that strategy isn’t working or they wouldn’t change courses now. It’s business 

[BermudaBound2014]

7 hours ago, kitkat343 said:

Prior to covid, almost all cruise lines refused to allow children under the age of one to sail with 3 days at sea because young children can get very sick very quickly, and no cruise line wants the responsibility of having a previously healthy 7 month old die on a ship.

 

If vaccines for children under 5 are available, I think the cruise lines will mandate them (like they do for kids 5-17) because it reduces the risk of serious covid that leads to hospitalization or death.   A healthy 4 year old dying of covid on a cruise ship would lead to a lot of negative publicity, and NCL will be able to reduce the chances of that happening by mandating vaccines.   The CDC already has the cruise line industry in its crosshairs because cruise ships are - understandably - a place where outbreaks of any disease can quickly spread (prior to Covid, there were periodic noro outbreaks).  If NCL doesn't take reasonable precautions such as requiring a vaccine when it is available, the CDC may start imposing more penalties on them, and the media will make them look terrible for not mandating a vaccine if a child dies.    

I believe you are incorrect but I respect your opinion. Happy cruising. 

[At Sea At Peace]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:18 PM, At Sea At Peace said:

 

RCL is not really in a better position.  So much press about 'future bookings.  One highlight said 'they'd returned to pre-pandemic levels.'  Then I looked at the article which noted 'for the last week in January' bookings compared to same week pre-pandemic.

 

YIKES.

 

Liquidity.

 

For RCL's earnings release, ahead of NCL, if you still lose the same amount of money while sailing as you did while estopped, not good.

 

Who is the 'financier?'

 

Right now it's the customer deposits.

 

 

 

Looks like NCL is in a similar (and yet more of a pickle in that their losses are equivalent yet they are much smaller) than RCCL.

 

Wow.

 

The cruise operator said in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission that it has yet to finish arranging its fourth-quarter financial information. The company said it estimates full-year 2021 loss coming in between $4.4 billion and $4.6 billion, compared with $4.01 billion reported for 2020.

 

Norwegian said it expects its liquidity, which includes cash and cash equivalents, short-term investments and an undrawn $1 billion commitment, to be about $2.7 billion as of Dec. 31.

 

It did not disclose the amount of Customer Deposits.

 

Also, 'raising more capital via DEBT.

 

NCL, subsidiary of Norwegian Cruise Line (NYSE:NCLH), is proposing to sell $1,000M principal amount of its senior secured notes due 2027 and $600M principal amount of its senior unsecured notes due 2029 in a private offering.

 

The company is also planning to sell $435M principal amount of its exchangeable senior notes due 2027 in a private offering.

 

Initial purchasers will be granted 13-day period to purchase up to an additional $65M principal amount of exchangeable notes.

[BermudaBound2014]

@At Sea At Peace   Emphasis on “much” smaller 😉

 

You type that as if you are surprised….

[Starflyr3]

11 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

It certainly isn't an apropos "emergency use" when the subject population is not at any risk.  Then again, it's a governmental regulatory body so such facts weigh little in the political science of it all.

 

 

As a pediatrician, I will say that while children under 5 don’t *die* of COVID very often, they can get quite sick from

it *very* quickly and require hospital or ICU care.  It’s not always acute covid, either; MIS-C is a thing, and with Omicron, a super fun(sarcasm) new syndrome of post-COVID encephalitis.

 

Ships have doctors, yes, but they are mostly there for minor illness and adults having serious issues (heart attack, stroke, etc).  None of them are pediatricians, unless something enormous has changed (I checked into it, because that would be cool.  Internists, family medicine, or ER).  No disrespect to my colleagues, but adult-oriented hospital facilities aren’t generally the best choice for very sick young kids.
 

It makes me nervous.  I suspect the number of small kids on cruises will be very small for the near future, and vaccinations will be required before too long.

 

 

[At Sea At Peace]

7 hours ago, Starflyr3 said:

As a pediatrician, I will say that while children under 5 don’t *die* of COVID very often, they can get quite sick from

it *very* quickly and require hospital or ICU care.  It’s not always acute covid, either; MIS-C is a thing, and with Omicron, a super fun(sarcasm) new syndrome of post-COVID encephalitis.

 

Ships have doctors, yes, but they are mostly there for minor illness and adults having serious issues (heart attack, stroke, etc).  None of them are pediatricians, unless something enormous has changed (I checked into it, because that would be cool.  Internists, family medicine, or ER).  No disrespect to my colleagues, but adult-oriented hospital facilities aren’t generally the best choice for very sick young kids.
 

It makes me nervous.  I suspect the number of small kids on cruises will be very small for the near future, and vaccinations will be required before too long.

 

 

 

I certainly remain with the post thesis.

 

19 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

It certainly isn't an apropos "emergency use" when the subject population is not at any risk. 

 

There will never be total elimination of all risk, of this current virus or any other illness, activity or walk of life.  It's impossible.

 

One would expect that, based upon the measured number of experiences of "under 5 unvaccinated children" getting seriously ill on cruise ships, as a result of being on cruise ships, then it would then be appropriate to consider protocols.

 

Again, the "there can't be one" is a bar that is not realistic wherever such has proffered. 

 

JIMO

 

As an aside, why are we even vaccinating anyone without prior testing to determine if they have already been infected and have continuing antibodies? 

 

First, it is a waste of vaccine. 

 

Second, the younger one is (especially for males), there is the noted increase in risk from heart inflammation. 

 

Third, those continuing antibodies are being reported out 22 months (so far, that's because that's the amount of time since this began).  Studies are still documenting the 2004 SARS coronavirus outbreak and reporting, after 18 years, still possessing an immune response.

 

🙂

 

 

 

[At Sea At Peace]

11 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

@At Sea At Peace   Emphasis on “much” smaller 😉

 

You type that as if you are surprised….

 

Yep.

 

NCL's loss the same as RCL's (although a big component was the "deemed interest" charge on the convertible debt) even though they are roughly 1/3rd the passenger count (size) @ 1.3M versus 3.3M +- depending on source.

 

And "no" I'm not surprised.  I'm actually flabbergasted that the stock PPS's of the top three public lines are where they are.  No basis in fundamentals.  Then again, that's today's stock market, so much emphasis on trading versus investing.

 

With the CDC lurking combined with the disdain for cruising as a societal inequity, the low % capacity sailings, losses while operating equal to when shut down, tons (pun intended) of new ships still in the hopper, and liquidity surreptitiously now tied dependently on "customer deposits," the cruise lines are sitting ducks.

 

😲🦆

 

 

[BermudaBound2014]

7 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

Yep.

 

NCL's loss the same as RCL's (although a big component was the "deemed interest" charge on the convertible debt) even though they are roughly 1/3rd the passenger count (size) @ 1.3M versus 3.3M +- depending on source.

 

And "no" I'm not surprised.  I'm actually flabbergasted that the stock PPS's of the top three public lines are where they are.  No basis in fundamentals.  Then again, that's today's stock market, so much emphasis on trading versus investing.

 

With the CDC lurking combined with the disdain for cruising as a societal inequity, the low % capacity sailings, losses while operating equal to when shut down, tons (pun intended) of new ships still in the hopper, and liquidity surreptitiously now tied dependently on "customer deposits," the cruise lines are sitting ducks.

 

😲🦆

 

 

 

We are on the same page. Unless there are major changes to bookings (and quickly), the stock is approaching worthless. Another share dilution is likely the next step. A brand new player with a ton of money could appear. A Saudi company invested a ton in CCL. 

 

The earnings calls of all three companies are sales pitches. Hard to know what to believe, and I do agree that market manipulation of stock muddies the water even further.

 

One thing I would add that I believe is another challenge for the cruise industry is the push toward sustainable tourism. As you mentioned, Cruising has developed quite the negative perception, not just for social inequities, but also for environmental impact. Many destinations have seen positive results of reduced tourism from covid. We are already seeing the wealthier destinations pushing back on the cruise industry due to it's negative impact on the environment. These are all challenges that will need to be overcome. Not saying the cruise industry can't survive,  and I do love cruising, but I'm starting to believe the glory days are behind us. 

 

 

[At Sea At Peace]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

We are on the same page. Unless there are major changes to bookings (and quickly), the stock is approaching worthless. Another share dilution is likely the next step. A brand new player with a ton of money could appear. A Saudi company invested a ton in CCL. 

 

 

I'm not sure if they have many investors left with an appetite for equity.  The massive increased debt, high interest expense and cost of convertible debt settlements (deemed interest) are currently being "flipped" for the same with lower stated interest but the same stranglehold in the 1st position on the assets should it come to that.

 

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

The earnings calls of all three companies are sales pitches. Hard to know what to believe, and I do agree that market manipulation of stock muddies the water even further.

 

 

Yep, so true.

 

When you read their statements of "percentage return of capacity" they are counting SHIPS.

 

They are not counting PASSENGERS actually on the cruises as a percentage of total passengers that the ships' capacity allows for.

 

Misleading at best.  Could be trouble down the road for such intentional misrepresentations at worst.

 

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

 

One thing I would add that I believe is another challenge for the cruise industry is the push toward sustainable tourism. As you mentioned, Cruising has developed quite the negative perception, not just for social inequities, but also for environmental impact. Many destinations have seen positive results of reduced tourism from covid. We are already seeing the wealthier destinations pushing back on the cruise industry due to it's negative impact on the environment. These are all challenges that will need to be overcome. Not saying the cruise industry can't survive,  and I do love cruising, but I'm starting to believe the glory days are behind us. 

 

 

 

Great THREAD topic.

 

Sustainable Cruising - Going Forward Thoughts

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by At Sea At Peace

[purplecow15]

 

Pfizer postpones FDA request for Covid vaccine for kids under 5

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna15730
 

 

[academytim]

I’m ecstatic about it. It’s the only reason we are now booked for a Sailing next month. 

[BermudaBound2014]

19 hours ago, At Sea At Peace said:

 

I'm not sure if they have many investors left with an appetite for equity.  The massive increased debt, high interest expense and cost of convertible debt settlements (deemed interest) are currently being "flipped" for the same with lower stated interest but the same stranglehold in the 1st position on the assets should it come to that.

 

 

Yep, so true.

 

When you read their statements of "percentage return of capacity" they are counting SHIPS.

 

They are not counting PASSENGERS actually on the cruises as a percentage of total passengers that the ships' capacity allows for.

 

Misleading at best.  Could be trouble down the road for such intentional misrepresentations at worst.

 

 

Great THREAD topic.

 

Sustainable Cruising - Going Forward Thoughts

 

 

Feb 23 is going to be interesting. It's nice to know there is at least one other person following the financials. I belong to several stock analysis forums and the chatter there about cruising is on the uptake. I don't think most people here on CC have any idea just how dire this is setting up to be.

 

As far as sustainable cruising goes... I think this topic will continue to come into the light, but right now most cruisers aren't all that interested because the global impact is small. There are protestors meeting ships in Hawaii, the port of Venice is entirely closed, KW has serious restrictions, Grand Cayman scrapped their pier in an attempt to reduce cruise ship passengers, the list goes on. Of course, countries less financially independent are welcoming the cruise community with open arms, but even some of those area starting to examine the negative effects of the cruise industry on the environment. On a positive note, MCS seems to be doing some cutting edge things to lesson environmental impact, one of the most telling is the use of fuel cells on their new World Class ships.

 

I find all this interesting. Most people just don't give a hoot 🙂

[GALSews]

12 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Feb 23 is going to be interesting. It's nice to know there is at least one other person following the financials. I belong to several stock analysis forums and the chatter there about cruising is on the uptake. I don't think most people here on CC have any idea just how dire this is setting up to be.

 

As far as sustainable cruising goes... I think this topic will continue to come into the light, but right now most cruisers aren't all that interested because the global impact is small. There are protestors meeting ships in Hawaii, the port of Venice is entirely closed, KW has serious restrictions, Grand Cayman scrapped their pier in an attempt to reduce cruise ship passengers, the list goes on. Of course, countries less financially independent are welcoming the cruise community with open arms, but even some of those area starting to examine the negative effects of the cruise industry on the environment. On a positive note, MCS seems to be doing some cutting edge things to lesson environmental impact, one of the most telling is the use of fuel cells on their new World Class ships.

 

I find all this interesting. Most people just don't give a hoot 🙂

I just did my thing and purchased 4 tonnes of credit on Cooleffects.org to help with my part of the carbon footprint. 

[eileeshb]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:59 PM, At Sea At Peace said:

 

It certainly isn't an apropos "emergency use" when the subject population is not at any risk.  Then again, it's a governmental regulatory body so such facts weigh little in the political science of it all.

 

If one has noticed the resistance from parents of 5-12 year old children, this next age group resistance will be quite higher.

 

Using the term 'resistance' as interlaced with 'based on each parents assessment of the available information and the governments performance to date.'

 

😉

 

As an aside, I'd like to see a cruise line 'designate sailings' or 'ships' by ala carte protocols.

 

1.  This cruise/ship is 100% vaccinated, masked, prior negative testing required.

2.  This cruise/ship is 100% vaccinated, no masks, prior negative testing required.

3.  This cruise/ship is OPEN to all, prior negative testing required.

 

Etc. ~ Let the market (customers) decide.

in terms of vaccinating the under 5s the priority will always be for those with underlying conditions, unfortunately there are little kids with cancer, asthma, diabetes, or other conditions that put them at enormous risk if they catch covid. I suspect under 5s without such issues or in families without such issues are unlikely to be vaccinated for covid anytime soon.

I know in Ireland our medical services are still playing catch-up on the normal childhood vaccination schedules as they were all suspended during the first 2 covid lockdowns here. 
 

there is a suspicion here in Ireland that most under 12s have now had covid with the omicron variant as they only started offering vaccines to the under 12s after Christmas and at that stage omicron was running rampant already. Schools were losing 25% of teacher to quarantine for most of December and January, they had to pull student teachers out of college class to cover school staff shortfalls.  
 

what should be happening is kids getting tested for antibodies before getting scheduled for vaccines as so many of them are/were a symptomatic when they get the virus. Here they aren’t allowed to be vaccinated until 3 months after a covid infection, if they know they were infected. 

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, eileeshb said:

what should be happening is kids getting tested for antibodies before getting scheduled for vaccines as so many of them are/were a symptomatic when they get the virus. Here they aren’t allowed to be vaccinated until 3 months after a covid infection, if they know they were infected. 

bingo! We need reliable antibody testing. There is a growing number of doctors here in the USA that are suggesting it an antibody panel prior to administering a booster. It is believed too much virus introduced to the system is having adverse reactions including, but not limited to, heightened auto immune issues. It’s still a very fluid situation.