CDC says masks are still required…

[Hutcha]

5 hours ago, Karaboudjan said:

Yes, but if they don't opt in then they fall under the transportation mask order like airlines and masks are required period.

 

1 hour ago, Earthworm Jim said:

if you don't follow them you fall under the same transportation mandatory mask order as planes

I keep seeing this. Where does it say you fall under the same rule as planes if you don't follow, and how did they go maskless before?

 

How is Celebrity mask free today? Mostly...

Edited February 12, 2022 by Hutcha

[Earthworm Jim]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Obviously the current requirements of 100% vaccinated and pre-testing is not working. 

 

I don't think that is at all obvious. It's certainly not optimal for the cruise lines profit, and I'm uncertain that it is sustainable indefinitely. But they have indeed managed to make vaccination approaching 100% and pre-testing work. Cruises are going out successfully every week.

[Earthworm Jim]

16 minutes ago, Hutcha said:

 

I keep seeing this. Where does it say you fall under the same rule as planes if you don't follow, and how did they go maskless before?

 

 

Cruise ship operators "can choose the 'healthy sail' option, or they can choose to kind of do their own thing, but it's very important to keep in mind that ships will still be under CDC's regulatory authority," Treffiletti told USA TODAY in January.

 

If a cruise line chooses to opt out of the program, its ships would then fall under the CDC's mask order for public transportation and the agency's regulatory authority for inspections.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2022/02/09//cdc-cruises-covid-guidelines/6562415001

 

(Scroll down to the subheading "Cruises will still be regulated by the CDC regardless of commitment")

 

That quote is from Capt. Aimee Treffiletti, who leads the CDC's maritime unit.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Earthworm Jim

[Earthworm Jim]

38 minutes ago, Hutcha said:

 

I keep seeing this. Where does it say you fall under the same rule as planes if you don't follow, and how did they go maskless before?

 

I believe they were able to go maskless before because the old Conditional Sail Order gave them that flexibility. But this new standard requires masks indoors unless you meet their new unrealistic and unattainable Standard of Excellence. And if the cruise line opts in they must follow all the new rules:

 

Cruise lines choosing to opt into this program on a voluntary basis will be required to follow all recommendations and guidance as a condition of their participation in the program (i.e., they will not be able to choose which recommendations to follow). 

 

Cruise lines have until February 18th to decide whether to opt in, so maybe these new rules don't take effect until then which allows Celebrity to be maskless now??? But I can't find anything that actually says it isn't in effect until February 18th.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Earthworm Jim

[leveedogs]

From https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/management/technical-instructions-for-cruise-ships.html

"For cruise ship operators opting into CDC’s COVID-19 Program for Cruise Ships, CDC will continue to exercise enforcement discretion regarding the requirements of its January 29, 2021, Mask Order, applicable to operators of, and crew and passengers on board, cruise ships."

 

Looks like there's still technically a mask order in place even if the cruise line can convince 95% of the guests to get boosted (never, ever happening).  But the phrase "enforcement discretion" and the fact that many cruise lines are officially dropping mask requirements tells me that CDC has communicated through back channels that it does not plan to enforce the mask rule as long as the cruise lines are otherwise on their best behavior.

[BermudaBound2014]

2 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

I don't think that is at all obvious. It's certainly not optimal for the cruise lines profit, and I'm uncertain that it is sustainable indefinitely. But they have indeed managed to make vaccination approaching 100% and pre-testing work. Cruises are going out successfully every week.

Sorry for not being clearer. I was speaking from a financial standpoint. The 💯 vaccination rule has been disastrous for NCl. . I will go out on a limb and suggest it is impossible for long term viability. That’s why they have abandoned the 100 vaccine requirement beginning with the littlest. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by BermudaBound2014

[UKstages]

17 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 The 💯 vaccination rule has been disastrous for NCl.  . I will go out on a limb and suggest it is impossible for long term viability. That’s why they have abandoned the 100 vaccine requirement beginning with the littlest. 

 

COVID has been challenging for all cruise lines.

 

requiring passengers to be vaccinated has been a competitive advantage for NCL.

 

on which data are you basing your conclusion that vaccination rules have been "disastrous for NCl?"

 

do you have access to datas that shows a decline in NCL customers due to vaccination rules?

 

i suspect you are interpreting NCL's financial reports as somehow being tied to vaccine resistance, when the data does not support that conclusion. the resistance is in large part to simply traveling during covid times, which may include some vaccine resistance, but that data also includes a falloff in business from those who do not feel it is safe to travel, regardless of vaccine status. 

 

COVID has been disastrous for NCL, not vaccination protocols or rules.

[Hutcha]

1 hour ago, UKstages said:

requiring passengers to be vaccinated has been a competitive advantage for NCL.

 

on which data are you basing your conclusion that vaccination rules have been "disastrous for NCl?"

What data are you basing your conclusion on?

[BermudaBound2014]

2 hours ago, UKstages said:

 

requiring passengers to be vaccinated has been a competitive advantage for NCL.

 

 

 

Now that's funny.

 

If 100% vaccination was a competitive advantage, why would NCL change the protocol now? 

 

If 100% vaccination actually worked to reduce the number of covid cases onboard, one would expect that NCL would have had fewer 'yellow' reports from the CDC. They didn't. 

 

If 100% vaccination actually reduced the number of covid cases onboard, one would expect that NCL would not have been forced to postpone most of its entire fleet (12 ships) during the Omicron surge while the competition only cancelled a very small fraction of sailings comparatively. PS: I suspect NCL postponed most of January due to low occupancy rates rather than higher covid cases, but that's just a hypothesis ;-).

 

If 100% vaccination rates were a competitive advantage, one would expect NCL to have higher occupancy rates than the competition right now. The cruise lines aren't being transparent with occupancy rates, but based on statements from the 3rd financial release (and anecdotal evidence collected here), it appears that NCL is not sailing with any 'competitive edge' in terms of drawing consumers onboard sailings.

 

Of course there is an overall resistance to travel which has affected all 3 cruise lines, but if NCL's 100% vaccine policy was such a 'competitive edge', we should see that reflected in the financials. Instead, the trend is quite the opposite. 

 

It (should) go without saying that COVID has been disastrous for all cruise lines. I did not mean to imply otherwise. Unfortunately, we have nothing but financial releases and antidotal evidence to gauge this discussion on. I do acknowledge that many factors go into NCL's current financial position (which is disastrous ;-0). 

 

With that I will revise my statement to say......

 

While the 100% vaccination policy was designed to give NCL a competitive edge (see Del Rio's conversation at the 2nd quarter earnings call), the experiment did not produce the desired results and, as a result, the policy has been amended. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by BermudaBound2014

[mem05]

It doesn’t seem that vaccinations or boosters actually prevent  spread of the virus.  Many people fully vaccinated contracted the omicron variant, myself and seven family members included.  All of us fully vaccinated and boosted.  Second time I’ve contacted  Covid.  First time delta and was acutely ill.   Second time omicron and cold/flu like symptoms.  If the intention is to not spread the virus on ships boosters won’t help with that at this point. Given that I doubt the cruise lines will risk losing 50 plus percent of potential passengers by requiring boosters.  I haven’t cruised since it started and can’t wait to get on a ship in March.  I would much rather be massless but would wear a mask if that’s what it takes.  

[leveedogs]

1 hour ago, UKstages said:

COVID has been disastrous for NCL, not vaccination protocols or rules.

 

Of course fear of contracting COVID has put vacation plans on hold for many.  This was probably the biggest factor in the beginning of the pandemic.  But after people have been vaccinated, boosted, and naturally infected they are reassessing their individual risks vs. benefits.  Yes, as a healthy vaccinated adult I may catch Omicron on a cruise ship and have a nasty cold, but I really would like to travel for my mental health and enjoyment.  I don't care what scary color is on the CDC website regarding cruising risk.

 

But you are living in a bubble if you think the ever-changing testing rules and mask requirement are not a huge turn-off and a big factor in the current poor booking rates.  A large fraction of the western world is now, or soon will be, living mask-free (for better or worse. I'm not here to debate merits of masks).  Once you go mask-free it's hard to go backwards psychologically, especially while on vacation.

[Ray4Fun]

Gosh, It is such a circle of thoughts.

 

A Circle is a never ending story. 

 

 

[mem05]

I agree levee dogs and my entire family of 5 works in healthcare. 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, leveedogs said:

 

  Once you go mask-free it's hard to go backwards psychologically, especially while on vacation.

I wonder if at least for some the opposite is true; once you get used to wearing masks, you will continue to wear them even when not necessary. Last week, DW and I invited our adult son over for dinner. All three of us are fully vaccinated including boosters. i noticed that DW was wearing her mask, and she also ate dinner on the couch (more than 6 feet away). I later asked her why she was wearing a mask. Her reply was that she felt like it.

[CPT Trips]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:09 AM, ziggyuk said:

 

And the science also tells us it's far less dangerous which is why our government, following the science plan to drop ALL measures in two weeks time including self isolation when infected.
 

Not one of the US political leaders that has dropped their location’s mask mandate or announced the intent to drop the mandate has offered aspecific metric in support of their decision. 
 

On 2/12/2022 at 9:27 AM, leveedogs said:

And as we plan to be "actively" eating and drinking during waking hours our masks will essentially be a chin diaper.  Gotta love mask theater.

 

Some well need chin diapers.

[ColeThornton]

13 minutes ago, leveedogs said:

 

I found the metric they are using 😉

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president-biden-job-approval-7320.html

 

 

Keep the political commentary off the forum please, it will get threads shut down quickly and for good reason.

 

Thanks.

[leveedogs]

8 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

Keep the political commentary off the forum please, it will get threads shut down quickly and for good reason.

 

Thanks.

 

Gotcha.  Will try.  New here.

 

And one day I sincerely hope cruising and how cruising operates will again be independent from politics.

[UKstages]

4 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

 

Now that's funny.

 

If 100% vaccination was a competitive advantage, why would NCL change the protocol now? 

 

If 100% vaccination actually worked to reduce the number of covid cases onboard, one would expect that NCL would have had fewer 'yellow' reports from the CDC. They didn't. 

 

If 100% vaccination actually reduced the number of covid cases onboard, one would expect that NCL would not have been forced to postpone most of its entire fleet (12 ships) during the Omicron surge while the competition only cancelled a very small fraction of sailings comparatively. PS: I suspect NCL postponed most of January due to low occupancy rates rather than higher covid cases, but that's just a hypothesis ;-).

 

If 100% vaccination rates were a competitive advantage, one would expect NCL to have higher occupancy rates than the competition right now. The cruise lines aren't being transparent with occupancy rates, but based on statements from the 3rd financial release (and anecdotal evidence collected here), it appears that NCL is not sailing with any 'competitive edge' in terms of drawing consumers onboard sailings.

 

Of course there is an overall resistance to travel which has affected all 3 cruise lines, but if NCL's 100% vaccine policy was such a 'competitive edge', we should see that reflected in the financials. Instead, the trend is quite the opposite. 

 

It (should) go without saying that COVID has been disastrous for all cruise lines. I did not mean to imply otherwise. Unfortunately, we have nothing but financial releases and antidotal evidence to gauge this discussion on. I do acknowledge that many factors go into NCL's current financial position (which is disastrous ;-0). 

 

With that I will revise my statement to say......

 

While the 100% vaccination policy was designed to give NCL a competitive edge (see Del Rio's conversation at the 2nd quarter earnings call), the experiment did not produce the desired results and, as a result, the policy has been amended. 

 

 

 

 

 

i didn't say it was a competitive "edge" for NCL,  i said it was a competitive advantage. if you're going to quote people when you misrepresent their views, at least quote them accurately.

 

also, it wasn't an "experiment," it was a business policy.

 

and neither you nor i know why "the policy has been amended." i suspect it has to do with science and facts. you seem to be suggesting it has to do with wall street. and when you say the policy has been amended, it's unclear whether you're talking about vaccines or masks. i think you're talking about vaccines... in which case, the policy is still in effect for those over five years of age. 

 

your entire post is a straw man argument.

 

that is to say, it doesn't refute my statement at all.

 

i didn't say anything about whether or not requiring vaccinated passengers reduces covid spread, which seems to be the general thrust of most of your response and your assessment that it has been "disastrous."  all i said is that requiring vaccination was a competitive advantage for NCL (because many other cruise lines did not require 100% of passengers to be vaccinated). please remember that this was in response to your statement saying that vaccination rules had been "disastrous" from a financial perspective. they have not. requiring vaccination on board NCL ships has been ridiculously successful... it's what enabled them to resume operations.

 

i can't tell you what NCL's finances or passenger loads would be had they not implemented 100% vaccination requirements. 

 

one can't prove a negative or a theoretical.

Edited February 13, 2022 by UKstages

[Cruising Lynne]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I wonder if at least for some the opposite is true; once you get used to wearing masks, you will continue to wear them even when not necessary. Last week, DW and I invited our adult son over for dinner. All three of us are fully vaccinated including boosters. i noticed that DW was wearing her mask, and she also ate dinner on the couch (more than 6 feet away). I later asked her why she was wearing a mask. Her reply was that she felt like it.

 You may be right about that. I am pretty used to wearing one, except for when my glasses steam up. Sometimes I even wear my mask outdoors. It keeps my face warmer on the windy, snowy days😃. I am also vaxxed and boosted.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Cruising Lynne
missed word

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Cruising Lynne said:

 You may be right about that. I am pretty used to wearing one, except for when my glasses steam up. Sometimes I even wear my mask outdoors. It keeps my face warmer on the windy, snowy days😃. I am also vaxxed and boosted.

LOL about even wearing masks outdoors. I was at my son's house earlier and we watched the Super Bowl together (unmasked). And he and his mother (my DW) went cross country skiing with some others earlier in the day. He said she was the only one wearing a mask.

[BermudaBound2014]

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

 

i didn't say it was a competitive "edge" for NCL,  i said it was a competitive advantage. 

 

You can’t possibly be serious. 

 

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

also, it wasn't an "experiment," it was a business policy.

 

See above 

 

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

 i suspect it has to do with science and facts. you seem to be suggesting it has to do with Wall Street….

everything has to do with wallstreet.

 

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

and when you say the policy has been amended, it's unclear whether you're talking about vaccines or masks. i think you're talking about vaccines... in which case, the policy is still in effect for those over five years of age. 

Sorry for not being clearer- NCL has amended both the mask policy and the 100% vaccination policy. 
 

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

 

….all i said is that requiring vaccination was a competitive advantage for NCL (because many other cruise lines did not require 100% of passengers to be vaccinated). 

 

 

And what I’m saying is that if the competitive advantage experiment worked out to be an actual advantage, it is unlikely NCL would be tossing out said “advantage” on March 1st. Given they just leveraged a few cruise ships and islands to cover debt I’d say they could use that advantage in the coming years. BTW- you really should listen to the audio interview with Del Rio which was published immediately after the 2nd quarter earnings call . I linked it here several times (or probably just as easy to  google). You should find it enlightening. 

 

5 hours ago, UKstages said:

. please remember that this was in response to your statement saying that vaccination rules had been "disastrous" from a financial perspective. 

 

I already revised my statement, but I’ll repeat it because I appreciate anyone who can encourage me to view things from another perspective…
 

 

With that I will revise my statement to say......

 

While the 100% vaccination policy was designed to give NCL a competitive edge (see Del Rio's conversation at the 2nd quarter earnings call), the experiment did not produce the desired results and, as a result, the policy has been amended. 

PS- feel free to exchange the word “edge” for “advantage” and “experiment” for “policy”‘, I don’t see much difference between the two in this context. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by BermudaBound2014

[Karaboudjan]

7 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

With that I will revise my statement to say......

 

While the 100% vaccination policy was designed to give NCL a competitive edge (see Del Rio's conversation at the 2nd quarter earnings call), the experiment did not produce the desired results and, as a result, the policy has been amended. 

PS- feel free to exchange the word “edge” for “advantage” and “experiment” for “policy”‘, I don’t see much difference between the two in this context. 

I would put it this way: "The experiment has concluded and 100% vaccination is no longer the right policy."  Whether it worked at one time is probably impossible for us to say.  Maybe NCL would have been even worse off now if they had not got additional bookings from the 100% vaccination policy.  Delta and then Omicron changed things so much from when the policy was instituted.

 

As for masks, I strongly suspect that the only reason for the changes was a warning from the CDC that ships would start getting Red status if the lines did not do something.

[Hutcha]

13 hours ago, UKstages said:

i didn't say it was a competitive "edge" for NCL,  i said it was a competitive advantage. if you're going to quote people when you misrepresent their views, at least quote them accurately.

We do like splitting hairs, don't we...

competitive edge

noun [ S ]

the fact that a company has an advantage over its competitors:

[kirtihk]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:52 PM, deliver42 said:

All forms of transportation require face masks.

Including walking

[kirtihk]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:49 AM, chengkp75 said:

Passenger compliance with the mandate is something that cannot be controlled.  This is such a grey area at this point and neither side would be right or wrong.

Passenger compliance is definitely something that can be controlled, but not necessarily in a way that would be beneficial to the cruise line.  The Captain makes the announcement that if anyone is seen not wearing a mask, the ship will either confine them to be turned over to US authorities for failure of the mandate (much as those who disrupt airline flights are being detained), or the ship turns around and disembarks the violators in Bahamas.

A pure perfect worry- and stress-free relaxation (like announced in brochures) holiday (AKA vacation)!  On planes, depending on an occasion, I feel either exactly like a hunted down terrified picked on animal or a mosquito about to be smashed between palms on spot.

Edited February 14, 2022 by kirtihk