Not only football that's Come Home

[Gettingwarmer]

1 minute ago, gyoung said:

I have been very sorry to hear if your Aunt's problems, and amazed to hear of the cruise line's attitude, I have never had more than one credit card nor as big a credit limit.  I had assumed that the E111 card woukd cope with treatment costs both on board and ashore if we were unlucky enough to have problems, is this not the case then? Seems not with Princess at least, but Italy should be ok?

The E111 card would never cover costs on a ship and Princess mislaid the E111 card so that caused problems in Italy getting a replacement. 

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, davecttr said:

Are we seeing echoes of the USA attitude to health care here or would all cruise companies react in the same way?

 

As a solo cruiser the thought of being in the catch 22 situation of not being allowed to leave the ship for essential treatment because I can't authorise the payment because of my medical state horrifies me. They would rather you died than have to wait for the money.

 

Maybe we all need to reassess our credit card limits. I have one card with a few thousand limit and a debit card which I use to pay larger amounts. I wonder as a pensioner what my credit card company would think of asking for a limit of £10,000 just so I could go on a cruise to the Med.

I am unsure how other lines would react, however way back at the beginning when I had the cancellation issue with P&O I did discuss off the record what had happened with them.  They explained what would have happened if it had been their ship and the process certainly sounded different with regard to support.  The question of payment of the bill before departure did not, however, get discussed.  

 

Regarding credit lines although I am cross at the attitude over the payment demanded/taken this experience has been a real wake up call, both regarding availability and amount of emergency funds for myself in the event of a serious illness.

 

Like Terrierjohn I had assumed once you notified your insurer of a problem they would pick up and agree expenses incurred onboard and would find you accommodation even if you were paying for it initially.  Although this case has been more complex than the average one I have learned that this is not what happens with a lot of insurers.

 

Upon notification of an event the insurer starts an investigation at their end to assess whether there is a valid claim.  This involves access being granted to medical records etc and as an individual you are at the mercy of both the claims team and medical professionals in the UK being available to access and supply information requested as soon as requested.  

 

While all this checking is going on you have to be in a position to pay any demand from the cruise line, hospital and of course any accommodation and sustenance you require.

 

As I said previously if your bill is £4,000 before you even get off the ship you will need access immediately - I'm told my aunt's medical bill was pretty small as we were already arriving into port when she became unwell - in the event of being not so close to port I assume it would be far higher as ship's care would obviously be over a longer period.

 

It appears that the emergency assistance in normal circumstances does not therefore kick in until all the questions have been answered to their satisfaction.  Obviously some companies will do things slightly differently but until they give the okay and accept the claim you are paying directly and can claim it back.

 

Regarding your debit cards you could find yourself in the same situation as myself unless you have many thousands lying in the bank account connected to it.  On the day my accounts had roughly £5,000 available for instant use, anything else would have necessitated me organising a transfer between savings accounts and my day to day bank accounts.  This would have involved internet access or a telephone call to organise and if you had no access due to illness or lack of signal etc. You would encounter problems. 

 

Despite being Visa cards the taxi which eventually took myself and the two ladies to Rome airport did not have a card machine and required a cash payment.  The cost of that taxi was €205 and I could only give €70 towards the fare.  Princess ground staff didn't even bother to ask if we had cash between us but just stated it was the last taxi and we had to leave the port or the police would become involved as we were unauthorised to be there

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Megabear2

[gyoung]

1 hour ago, Gettingwarmer said:

The E111 card would never cover costs on a ship and Princess mislaid the E111 card so that caused problems in Italy getting a replacement. 

Sorry brain fade, I should have said just the Italy aspects

[Angel57]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

I am unsure how other lines would react, however way back at the beginning when I had the cancellation issue with P&O I did discuss off the record what had happened with them.  They explained what would have happened if it had been their ship and the process certainly sounded different with regard to support.  The question of payment of the bill before departure did not, however, get discussed.  

 

Regarding credit lines although I am cross at the attitude over the payment demanded/taken this experience has been a real wake up call, both regarding availability and amount of emergency funds for myself in the event of a serious illness.

 

Like Terrierjohn I had assumed once you notified your insurer of a problem they would pick up and agree expenses incurred onboard and would find you accommodation even if you were paying for it initially.  Although this case has been more complex than the average one I have learned that this is not what happens with a lot of insurers.

 

Upon notification of an event the insurer starts an investigation at their end to assess whether there is a valid claim.  This involves access being granted to medical records etc and as an individual you are at the mercy of both the claims team and medical professionals in the UK being available to access and supply information requested as soon as requested.  

 

While all this checking is going on you have to be in a position to pay any demand from the cruise line, hospital and of course any accommodation and sustenance you require.

 

As I said previously if your bill is £4,000 before you even get off the ship you will need access immediately - I'm told my aunt's medical bill was pretty small as we were already arriving into port when she became unwell - in the event of being not so close to port I assume it would be far higher as ship's care would obviously be over a longer period.

 

It appears that the emergency assistance in normal circumstances does not therefore kick in until all the questions have been answered to their satisfaction.  Obviously some companies will do things slightly differently but until they give the okay and accept the claim you are paying directly and can claim it back.

 

Regarding your debit cards you could find yourself in the same situation as myself unless you have many thousands lying in the bank account connected to it.  On the day my accounts had roughly £5,000 available for instant use, anything else would have necessitated me organising a transfer between savings accounts and my day to day bank accounts.  This would have involved internet access or a telephone call to organise and if you had no access due to illness or lack of signal etc. You would encounter problems. 

 

Despite being Visa cards the taxi which eventually took myself and the two ladies to Rome airport did not have a card machine and required a cash payment.  The cost of that taxi was €205 and I could only give €70 towards the fare.  Princess ground staff didn't even bother to ask if we had cash between us but just stated it was the last taxi and we had to leave the port or the police would become involved as we were unauthorised to be there

 

This has just been such a dreadful experience, but compounded by extremely poor customer service and care from Princess Cruises.

Having enough credit and cash on me has certainly made me much more aware of what needs to be in place now - so thank you for highlighting this.

I do find it very concerning as to what could happen if taken unwell (and as a solo passenger) as like most on here, I assumed that was what taking out travel insurance was for.

I hope your Aunt is soon back to better health.

 

[Megabear2]

7 minutes ago, Angel57 said:

I assumed that was what taking out travel insurance was for.

Please rest assured as long as your medical declaration etc are confirmed the travel insurance will meet the costs.  The only problem you may encounter is during any delay period between the notification of the event and the necessary confirmations arriving. It is this period you need cash/credit cards for.

 

In our case the lost bag did not help as there was a two week delay in formalisation of the GHIC section.

[Angel57]

Just now, Megabear2 said:

Please rest assured as long as your medical declaration etc are confirmed the travel insurance will meet the costs.  The only problem you may encounter is during any delay period between the notification of the event and the necessary confirmations arriving. It is this period you need cash/credit cards for.

 

In our case the lost bag did not help as there was a two week delay in formalisation of the GHIC section.

Thank you and yes, I always declare everything in full (which is thankfully not much).

Forewarned is forearmed as they say, and I think we have all learnt a valuable lesson from your experience.

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, gyoung said:

Sorry brain fade, I should have said just the Italy aspects

The GHIC (replaced E11) covers maximum of 70% of emergency medical treatment.  Your insurer/you is responsible for the balance. If you read the T&Cs of your policy you will see that for Europe you must have the GHIC. If travelling in Australia you are also required to register on arrival for their health scheme.

 

This is to lower the costs for the insurer.  In our case the insurer has accepted some liability for hospital and medical costs not covered by the GHIC (after a fight!) but not all of them. The move to the cardiac hospital for instance is not being covered as they state it is a private hospital.  The accommodation costs were £1,500 per day. The insurer has however agreed the doctor and medical costs whilst in that facility as the local Civitavecchia hospital did not have the necessary facilities.  The GHIC on the other hand would not cover anything whilst she was in that hospital as it is a private facility with no reciprocal arrangements.

 

A bit like an Italian going into a Nuffield hospital because the NHS hospital could not offer the required treatment, that's as it has been explained to us

[kalos]

17 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Thank you all.  Well something had to come along to ruin the day!  Just had a long email from Princess stating they have investigated the events and they acted in accordance with their Medical Disembarkation protocols, and attempted to assist me at every opportunity. 

 

Apparently the records show I refused to leave the port, stated I had no money to pay for a hotel or transport and was very aggressive.  Oh and I was liable to pay the medical bill - here's the reason why:

 

Quote

 

It is regrettable that all financial affairs must be settled prior to leaving the ship, unfortunately, as you may be aware the medical costs onboard can be high and these are added to the shipboard account of the guest. The medical facility onboard the ship is a US private health care facility provided by a third party.  I do wish to assure you that the team's actions were not meant to add further upset but we do have a set medical disembarkation process, whereby the safety of the patient takes priority and if we can assist with guests leaving the ship as seamlessly as possible we do our best to ensure this. Although we may of had the card details on record, there is no guarantee this payment can be processed when the card holder is not present. A full explanation of this should have been offered to you by the medical team. Regrettably, there are occasions whereby guests have refused to pay for the treatment they have received and it is for this reason the account must be settled prior to departure. I can only apologise if this was not communicated in a more compassionate way.

 

Unquote

 

And just to emphasise the point:

 

Quote

 

Due to the number of medical disembarkations we assist with across our fleet it is not possible for Princess Cruises to support any of our guests financially.  It is one of the many reasons it is a condition of carriage for all guests to have adequate travel insurance in place.   Most travel insurance companies work on a pay upfront and submit for reimbursement basis.

 

Unquote

 

Be prepared please everyone, their advice to me is to carry three separate credit cards with at least £10,000 limits and issued by different providers accepted worldwide eg one Mastercard, one Visa, one American Express. They also recommend at least 200 cash in local currency for incidentals such as taxis.

 

Oh and finally ...

 

"We do hope that Mrs xxxxxxxx is continuing to make a full recovery and we wish you both well on your future travels."

 

 

 

Have you thought about contacting one of the newspapers about your holiday from hell ?

I'm sure they would love to expose the story to their readers ?

 

[Megabear2]

29 minutes ago, kalos said:

 

Have you thought about contacting one of the newspapers about your holiday from hell ?

I'm sure they would love to expose the story to their readers ?

 

I have a contact who is making a television programme about the travel industry, particularly cruising as she feels it is not being discussed.  I have not reached the stage of speaking to her about these issues but if Princess do not offer a reasonable explanation about their part in the events I may change my mind!

 

I am trying to be reasonable and get a full understanding of this emergency offloading position, particularly as its something that could affect very many.  If this paying the medical bill direct and not via insurance is industrywide - which with how the insurance claims process appears to operate seems likely - then once again like the covid offloading of negative passengers before it is something a great deal of people (myself included) are unaware of.  If the discussions with Princess confirm this then I may indeed speak to people although not scaremongering national papers as mostly their reporting is just pure sensationalism.  I'm very lucky to have contacts within the BBC, ITV and Sky from previous issues I've been involved with over the years, mainly work contacts.

[tring]

18 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

To explain further.  I carry an American Express card with a very high limit, together with my Visa debit cards whilst travelling. Unfortunately American Express is not widely accepted by small businesses in Europe such as taxi drivers. On the day the port agent shouted at me that I was irresponsible to not carry a credit card or a substantial amount of cash in local currency. I had around €40 in cash as I was flying home that evening.  There was no ATM at the port to obtain cash from my debit cards and I was refused readmission to the port building where there was one.

 

The port agent has told Princess I had no money and expected Princess to pay my expenses. This was not the case but I did ask for assistance in leaving the port as I couldn't pay the taxi quote of €200 to Rome.  I had asked for help getting to an ATM and Civitavecchia is a closed port so needed language assistance to get the taxi driver to understand.

 

This lack of money, deduction from my card of over £4,000 by Princess and "refusal to leave the port" has led to me being told that Princess recommend carrying three high level credit cards from different providers.  I have queried this "advice", I have however noted mention of this suggestion elsewhere on travel websites so assume that's where it comes from.

 

I've no idea whether others travel with that amount of credit but did find it a very large sum to suggest might be needed.  Having said that I suppose it is not difficult to run up a huge bill onboard before leaving the ship in an emergency.

 

Hope that clarifies the point a little better, I was very angry and should have explained better.

 

I think covid isolation is different and medical care should be free. I assume that's the European rules they refer to.

 

Megabear2, you may find the following relevant:-

 

       The Package Travel Regulations 2018,  Regulation 18   (2018 No. 634).

 

 

I am so sorry to hear about your horrendous problems and hope you manage to get a successful resolution for them.  I also hope your aunt continues to make progress and a full recovery,

 

Barbara

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by tring

[Megabear2]

36 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Megabear2, you may find the following relevant:-

 

       The Package Travel Regulations 2018,  Regulation 18   (2018 No. 634).

 

 

I am so sorry to hear about your horrendous problems and hope you manage to get a successful resolution for them.  I also hope your aunt continues to make progress and a full recovery,

 

Barbara

 

 

 

 

Thank you Barbara.  I found the document extremely interesting, particularly this part:

 

Obligation to provide assistance

18.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) Where a traveller is in difficulty, the organiser must give appropriate assistance without undue delay, including in the circumstances referred to in regulation 15(14), in particular by—

(a)providing appropriate information on health services, local authorities and consular assistance; and

(b)assisting the traveller to make distance communications and helping the traveller to find alternative travel arrangements.

(3) The organiser may charge a fee for such assistance if the difficulty is caused intentionally by the traveller or through the traveller’s negligence but that fee—

(a)must be reasonable; and

(b)must not exceed the actual costs incurred by the organiser.

 

I shall see what my friend at Princess has to say on this point.

[tring]

1 hour ago, Megabear2 said:

Thank you Barbara.  I found the document extremely interesting, particularly this part:

 

Obligation to provide assistance

18.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) Where a traveller is in difficulty, the organiser must give appropriate assistance without undue delay, including in the circumstances referred to in regulation 15(14), in particular by—

(a)providing appropriate information on health services, local authorities and consular assistance; and

(b)assisting the traveller to make distance communications and helping the traveller to find alternative travel arrangements.

(3) The organiser may charge a fee for such assistance if the difficulty is caused intentionally by the traveller or through the traveller’s negligence but that fee—

(a)must be reasonable; and

(b)must not exceed the actual costs incurred by the organiser.

 

I shall see what my friend at Princess has to say on this point.

 

Yes it is regulation 18 that DH had highlighted and I mentioned above.  That is of course assuming your cruise was booked within the UK/EU (The Package Travel Regs. are EU law, currently applied in the UK after Brexit).  

 

This has started some thought and conversation for us, as to what law applies if a cruise is booked onboard when not in an EU country or the UK.  We were particularly thinking if you book when you are on a Princess ship in The Caribbean, (for instance), - would you be considered as booked under US law?   

 

The P&O  T&C's say their bookings are governed by UK law, so any P&O booking will be covered by The Package Travel Regs. 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by tring

[tring]

8 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Thank you Barbara.  I found the document extremely interesting,

 

I shall see what my friend at Princess has to say on this point.

 

One other point, regards the insurance company, (should you do not reach a suitable resolution), your aunt, (or her representative), could of course take the matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service.  If a complaint goes to the ombudsman, I am told the insurance company are asked for a fee to cover the cost of the complaint being investigated, so even a mention of The Financial Ombudsman Service could "focus minds" within the insurance company. 

 

Regards private health care, we know it is common practice for health insurance companies in the US to appoint lawyers, whose purpose is to "negotiate" the cost of a bill, hence bringing the cost down to a level which they are prepared to pay.  We understand the lawyers can be quite successful with that.  We have no idea if that works the same over here though.

 

Barbara   

Edited August 2, 2022 by tring

[terrierjohn]

7 hours ago, tring said:

 

Yes it is regulation 18 that DH had highlighted and I mentioned above.  That is of course assuming your cruise was booked within the UK/EU (The Package Travel Regs. are EU law, currently applied in the UK after Brexit).  

 

This has started some thought and conversation for us, as to what law applies if a cruise is booked onboard when not in an EU country or the UK.  We were particularly thinking if you book when you are on a Princess ship in The Caribbean, (for instance), - would you be considered as booked under US law?   

 

The P&O  T&C's say their bookings are governed by UK law, so any P&O booking will be covered by The Package Travel Regs. 

 

 

 

I would imagine that if your booking was against a UK  brochured holiday then UK  laws would apply regardless of where you were in the world. 

[tring]

42 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I would imagine that if your booking was against a UK  brochured holiday then UK  laws would apply regardless of where you were in the world. 

 

We have noticed that the Princess website, (as visible from the UK), says that bookings are governed by UK law, so presumably online bookings made from the UK would be fine, but remember if in another country, it is usually the case that you get a different website on screen, (i.e. one that has been designed for that country).  Since some cruise lines are based in the US, it would seem unlikely that they would use T&C's which are subject to UK law (P&O is UK company, so a different matter).

 

I am not sure about Princess - is it purely part of Carnival UK, or does it also have a section that is US based?  Or would/could they book UK customers on different T&C's to their US passengers if based outside the UK?  

 

The point was that we are unsure what the situation would be for individual countries, but The Package Travel Regs are only applicable within the EU/UK.  Likewise ABTA and ATOL - when CMV went bust a lot of US/Australian customers, (who had booked in their home countries), lost a lot of cash as they do not have the same protective legislation that we do.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by tring

[terrierjohn]

45 minutes ago, tring said:

 

We have noticed that the Princess website, (as visible from the UK), says that bookings are governed by UK law, so presumably online bookings made from the UK would be fine, but remember if in another country, it is usually the case that you get a different website on screen, (i.e. one that has been designed for that country).  Since some cruise lines are based in the US, it would seem unlikely that they would use T&C's which are subject to UK law (P&O is UK company, so a different matter).

 

I am not sure about Princess - is it purely part of Carnival UK, or does it also have a section that is US based?  Or would/could they book UK customers on different T&C's to their US passengers if based outside the UK?  

 

The point was that we are unsure what the situation would be for individual countries, but The Package Travel Regs are only applicable within the EU/UK.  Likewise ABTA and ATOL - when CMV went bust a lot of US/Australian customers, (who had booked in their home countries), lost a lot of cash as they do not have the same protective legislation that we do.

 

The US cruise ships generally have different brochures available when sailing in Europe, the UK one for Brits, and the Nth American one for Yanks and Canadians, or at least Celebrity had when we were considering booking on board.

They generally avoid giving you the wrong one so you don't notice the price disparity, however we were given a US  brochure initially, which was a bit of an embarrassment for the future cruise consultant.

[wowzz]

Just now, terrierjohn said:

The US cruise ships generally have different brochures available when sailing in Europe, the UK one for Brits, and the Nth American one for Yanks and Canadians, or at least Celebrity had when we were considering booking on board.

They generally avoid giving you the wrong one so you don't notice the price disparity, however we were given a US  brochure initially, which was a bit of an embarrassment for the future cruise consultant.

John - does any cruise line send out brochures these days with accurate pricing ?

The only  one  that I can think of is Saga.

[terrierjohn]

8 hours ago, wowzz said:

John - does any cruise line send out brochures these days with accurate pricing ?

The only  one  that I can think of is Saga.

Yes if you request one, P&O also always have them on board. But I accept our Celebrity experience was 2016 or ealier.

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

Yes if you request one, P&O also always have them on board. But I accept our Celebrity experience was 2016 or ealier.

I have the current P&O brochure. Not a single price in it !

[Megabear2]

10 minutes ago, wowzz said:

I have the current P&O brochure. Not a single price in it !

Difficult to fluid price a brochure I suppose!  Even on the website the from prices are never what actually appear when you do a booking. Looked at one yesterday and the actual price to reserve was £250 more than the cabins from page.

[terrierjohn]

16 minutes ago, wowzz said:

I have the current P&O brochure. Not a single price in it !

No but the future cruise desk will tell you the brochure price based on which brochure you are using, which was how we managed to find the dollar prices.