HAL Next New Build

[AFNavigator]

Considering the consistent mainline cruise industry trend is for bigger and bigger ships, it's doubtful HAL would get a smaller new-build ship.  Possibly a transfer, but not new-build.  It would stand to reason then, for fleet commonality and economics, that any new ship likely would be either a fourth Pinnacle class ship or possibly a modified Pinnacle class based on Cunard's Queen Anne discussed in an earlier post.

[eroller]

13 hours ago, ldtr said:

The pricing structure of HAL will not support new ships smaller than their more recent build. This is both from a construction point of view as well as operational efficiency.  Even with current ship sizes fares will probably increase by 25% over the next year. If you want Azmara or Oceania size ships, expect to pay their prices which are much more.

 

HALs future competitive position is pretty clear. Having the smallest avg fleet size of the mainstream lines, coupled with the longest average itinerary length, and more unique itineraries than the other mainstream lines.. They are not going to compete with the premium lines ship sizes.

 

 

Spot on. 

[CNSJ]

4 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Fred Olson's business model is based on buying "pre-loved" ships. They've been successful for many years. Perhaps because their passengers know they'll be on an old (but well kept) ship, they don't expect too many bells and whistles. So many people want the newest and biggest with the most restaurants and amusement rides. I don't mind an older ship. I always said QE2 was the love of my traveling life, and she was nearly 40 when I said goodbye to her (and cried).

 

Fred Olsen's business model is also to charge UK passengers a hefty sum to enjoy the pre-loved ships.

 

[Guest ldtr]

9 hours ago, SummmerInKefalonia said:

As someone already said, Carnival Group has already announced it will not order any new ships for the near future.

But I still expect to maybe do some inside movements to ships.

Island Princess, Coral Princess & Arcadia are good candidates for HAL.

Also they can try to remove the less efficient ships from their brands, so Volendam & Zaandam eventually will be retired.

Unlikely to get the Coral or the Island.  They are being used by Princess for world cruises.  Replacing the Pacific Princess and the Sun Princess which were sold off during the shutdown.  Unlikely Princess will get rid of those ships until they hit the retirement age that is fairly common in CCL fleets.  At which time they would be sold off not transferred t another CCL owned lines.

 

About the only way HAL will get any smaller ships would be for a premium line to go bankrupt and they were able to pick up relatively new ships for a low price.

[REOVA]

7 hours ago, rothbury said:

Was on the Nieuw Statendam last week at a Q&A with Rene Tuinman, the Hotel Services Manager.  Someone asked the question about future builds for HAL.  His answer was there are no plans currently to build any HAL ships out for the next 5 years.

On another note for those interested; he said the NS would be undergoing an overhaul in November.  Gave no details about what would be accomplished beyond mentioning things like carpets and everyday consumables.

It will probably be a library retrofit and other changes outlined in HALs new plan....

 

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2023/03/holland-america-expands-shipboard-enrichment-program/

[CNSJ]

11 hours ago, REOVA said:

It will probably be a library retrofit and other changes outlined in HALs new plan....

 

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2023/03/holland-america-expands-shipboard-enrichment-program/

The link indicates new emphasis on arts and crafts and library rooms!:

 

"The art and craft instructor’s job will be to lead painting, drawing, and coloring in a new art studio. The program will also include sessions in crafting and needlework as well as painting classes to encourage artistic expression."

 

"Holland America Line is also adding modern libraries throughout the fleet in 2023 and 2024. The collection includes over 250 titles featuring a variety of genres such as contemporary popular fiction, mystery, young adult and short stories. The cruise line is also expanding board and card game rooms to include a selection of games and puzzles."

 

Perhaps they do listen to guest inputs.  The arts and crafts program is nice for long voyages with sea days.

 

 

[REOVA]

9 minutes ago, CNSJ said:

The link indicates new emphasis on arts and crafts and library rooms!:

 

"The art and craft instructor’s job will be to lead painting, drawing, and coloring in a new art studio. The program will also include sessions in crafting and needlework as well as painting classes to encourage artistic expression."

 

"Holland America Line is also adding modern libraries throughout the fleet in 2023 and 2024. The collection includes over 250 titles featuring a variety of genres such as contemporary popular fiction, mystery, young adult and short stories. The cruise line is also expanding board and card game rooms to include a selection of games and puzzles."

 

Perhaps they do listen to guest inputs.  The arts and crafts program is nice for long voyages with sea days.

 

 

Except the library will be like Rotterdam, more like a book store with 10 copies of same books (but recent titles) and 4 chairs to sit and read. Not like the old Explorer's Cafe but better than nothing. Oprah would've been proud. 😉

[terrydtx]

19 hours ago, rothbury said:

Was on the Nieuw Statendam last week at a Q&A with Rene Tuinman, the Hotel Services Manager.  Someone asked the question about future builds for HAL.  His answer was there are no plans currently to build any HAL ships out for the next 5 years.

On another note for those interested; he said the NS would be undergoing an overhaul in November.  Gave no details about what would be accomplished beyond mentioning things like carpets and everyday consumables.

I would like to see changes with the existing Vista and R class ships with the specialty restaurants since it looks like they will be around for many more years. Getting very bored with just the Pinnacle grill and Canaletto as the only options.

[kangforpres]

My understanding is nothing is on the books through 2025. So it would be in the 2nd half of the decade. I would assume a 4th Pinnacle class or a whole new class even bigger with more features than the Pinnacles offer. The 4 Vista's are now all 20+ years old but I don't expect them to begin replacing them with a whole new medium sized 2k pax ship. The life expectancy of a cruise ships tops out at about 25-30 years

 

-Paul

[terrydtx]

3 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

My understanding is nothing is on the books through 2025. So it would be in the 2nd half of the decade. I would assume a 4th Pinnacle class or a whole new class even bigger with more features than the Pinnacles offer. The 4 Vista's are now all 20+ years old but I don't expect them to begin replacing them with a whole new medium sized 2k pax ship. The life expectancy of a cruise ships tops out at about 25-30 years

 

-Paul

We were on the Oosterdam last year and while she had a recent refurbishment of the cabins, she is badly in need of a total overhaul of all interior spaces. The hallways to our cabin had dented and scratched walls and doors, the door to our cabin looked like it had been kicked many times as it was covered in dents.

[Colorado Klutch]

While larger ships powered by bunker fuel would be more profitable, I don't see that as the future. Environmental regulations are getting more strict and more ports are growing weary of megaships. Norway will soon ban any cruise ships which are not "zero emissions" in some of their fjords. I'm certainly no expert, but I'm thinking the era of the megaship will soon wind down. 

 

Liquified Natural Gas is becoming more common for powering cruise ships, but they require more tank space for fuel which leaves less room for cabins that generate revenue. Diesel engines currently burning bunker fuel can't burn LNG. I doubt it's worthwhile to replace the engines in a cruise ship. And not all ports can provide LNG refueling. 

 

As with progress in any industry, cruise lines will have to get clever and creative. A big, flashy ship isn't much good if nobody wants it in their ports. Maybe HAL can build smaller ships that burn LNG and charge more per cabin based on the smaller ship experience and longer itineraries? Perhaps future cruise destinations will include ports with fewer restrictions. Maybe the Philippines? They could certainly use the revenue. 

 

It's fun to consider the possibilities of solar-powered ships requiring no fuel. That kind of technology is way off if even possible at all. 

Whatever the future holds for cruising, I'm sure it will be interesting. No doubt people predicted doom for the cruise industry when airlines started flying trans-Atlantic then trans-Pacific. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Colorado Klutch

[HappyInVan]

I don't see the point of new ships when HAL needs gimmicks like the $25-deposit to fill its ships. Does CCL/HAL need more debt at this time of high interest rates?

 

Right now, HAL needs to reduce its fleet because of the labor shortage.

[OlsSalt]

2 hours ago, terrydtx said:

I would like to see changes with the existing Vista and R class ships with the specialty restaurants since it looks like they will be around for many more years. Getting very bored with just the Pinnacle grill and Canaletto as the only options.

 

Best to pick a cruise line known for unique dining experiences. That was never part of the HAL value cruising package. Or you might want to explore the Indian cuisine menu available in the MDR daily, by request. Finding unique local cuisine for lunch in port has always been our way to add variety to the HAL cruise experience, since the ships take us to so many new places.

 

The biggest changes in HAL dining from its pretty much meat and potatoes days a decade ago, has been the addition of daily changing vegetarian/vegan menu items, as well as accommodations to an entire range of special diet needs. HAL kitchens, culinary expertise storage and food delivery areas are only so big. 

[terrydtx]

7 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Best to pick a cruise line known for unique dining experiences. That was never part of the HAL value cruising package. Or you might want to explore the Indian cuisine menu available in the MDR daily, by request. Finding unique local cuisine for lunch in port has always been our way to add variety to the HAL cruise experience, since the ships take us to so many new places.

 

The biggest changes in HAL dining from its pretty much meat and potatoes days a decade ago, has been the addition of daily changing vegetarian/vegan menu items, as well as accommodations to an entire range of special diet needs. HAL kitchens, culinary expertise storage and food delivery areas are only so big. 

The Signature and Pinnacle class ships have more specialty dining options which shouldn't be that hard to duplicate on the Vistas. I wasn't complaining about boredom in the MDR just the other options. Overall, I think the HAL MDR's have better selections and quality than Celebrity or NCL. We book suites on Celebrity mostly for access to their suites only restaurant, Luminae after some terrible experiences in their MDR's.

[kangforpres]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

We were on the Oosterdam last year and while she had a recent refurbishment of the cabins, she is badly in need of a total overhaul of all interior spaces. The hallways to our cabin had dented and scratched walls and doors, the door to our cabin looked like it had been kicked many times as it was covered in dents.

We were just on the Westerdam and it also had a quick drydock. Carpets, some paint, ect... some cruisers who sail on other lines and not use to HAL, they were from the UK, complained about how old and simple the ship was. I felt like telling them it was just 20 years old and does fine for the itineraries it serves. We were on a 13 day Indonesian Discovery, RT from Singapore.

Edited March 3, 2023 by kangforpres

[JeffElizabeth]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:51 AM, Colorado Klutch said:

While larger ships powered by bunker fuel would be more profitable, I don't see that as the future. Environmental regulations are getting more strict and more ports are growing weary of megaships. Norway will soon ban any cruise ships which are not "zero emissions" in some of their fjords. I'm certainly no expert, but I'm thinking the era of the megaship will soon wind down. 

 

Liquified Natural Gas is becoming more common for powering cruise ships, but they require more tank space for fuel which leaves less room for cabins that generate revenue. Diesel engines currently burning bunker fuel can't burn LNG. I doubt it's worthwhile to replace the engines in a cruise ship. And not all ports can provide LNG refueling. 

 

As with progress in any industry, cruise lines will have to get clever and creative. A big, flashy ship isn't much good if nobody wants it in their ports. Maybe HAL can build smaller ships that burn LNG and charge more per cabin based on the smaller ship experience and longer itineraries? Perhaps future cruise destinations will include ports with fewer restrictions. Maybe the Philippines? They could certainly use the revenue. 

 

It's fun to consider the possibilities of solar-powered ships requiring no fuel. That kind of technology is way off if even possible at all. 

Whatever the future holds for cruising, I'm sure it will be interesting. No doubt people predicted doom for the cruise industry when airlines started flying trans-Atlantic then trans-Pacific. 

Actually transatlantic flights created the cruise industry.  The passenger shipping lines had to transform themselves into cruise lines. Attended a Captain Albert presentation where he laid this out. 

[Colorado Klutch]

1 hour ago, JeffElizabeth said:

Actually transatlantic flights created the cruise industry.  The passenger shipping lines had to transform themselves into cruise lines. Attended a Captain Albert presentation where he laid this out. 

 

I am aware of this. My point is I think it's likely many people predicted doom for ocean liners, but those companies reinvented themselves as cruise lines. Whatever the future holds, cruise lines must keep reinventing themselves. 

[cruisemom42]

Given the "newsbyte" today regarding HAL's plans for what they're calling "Legendary Voyages" (shorter than Grands with more focus on a single country or small region; read here), perhaps HAL is already thinking that it would be better to find an available smaller ship or two (or keep the ones they have and update them) than build anything larger. 

 

Before COVID, I definitely waxed pessimistic about HAL ever putting money into smaller builds again. However, the guiding ideas of what ensures profitability seem to be shifting somewhat. A line like HAL that has ships of various sizes might do well to hang onto them for the time being until the future is clearer. For example:  are more ports going to ban larger cruise ships?  Just imagine what would happen to the behemoth cruise ships that ply the Med every summer if a substantial number of ports limited ships to, say, 1500 passengers or less?  Those large ships could become a large money pit. Caribbean markets are limited in summer and Alaska already has a glut of ships....

 

Also, and to the point of the news above.... are HAL's plans for longer voyages to more unique destinations going to "require" smaller ships?

 

Large ships are not well suited to off-the-beaten-track destinations. Having read descriptions from Hlitner and other posters about what happens when a Vista-sized ship pulls up at Qaqortoq Greenland is not pretty. Tendering to one existing dock can take many hours just to get everyone to shore.

 

Just a couple of days ago someone posted on the Ports of Call forum about what a "disaster" it was when they visited Zakynthos (a lesser-known Greek island with beautiful beaches) on Celebrity last year. Long tender lines!  No infrastructure!  Little to do!  But this is what happens when big ships go to small places that cannot handle the crowds...and don't really want them there, truthfully.  (Apparently Celebrity got enough negative feedback that Zakynthos is no longer on the itinerary.)

 

Part of this disconnect is cruise lines pandering to cruisers who don't understand that there are limits to where large ships can successfully go. They are trying to please those who want all the accoutrements of the large ships but also want to visit "new" ports, dock in the center of town, and have an endless array of tours available.

 

[JeffElizabeth]

Agree. One of our favorite features of the Prinsendam was the places it could get into. Bucolic British towns, docking in the center of Antwerp, cruising the Kiel Canal. The big boats drop you off at commercial ports. Some cruise lines are introducing small, expedition ships.  We might have to give them a try. 

[Guest ldtr]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:51 AM, Colorado Klutch said:

While larger ships powered by bunker fuel would be more profitable, I don't see that as the future. Environmental regulations are getting more strict and more ports are growing weary of megaships. Norway will soon ban any cruise ships which are not "zero emissions" in some of their fjords. I'm certainly no expert, but I'm thinking the era of the megaship will soon wind down. 

 

Liquified Natural Gas is becoming more common for powering cruise ships, but they require more tank space for fuel which leaves less room for cabins that generate revenue. Diesel engines currently burning bunker fuel can't burn LNG. I doubt it's worthwhile to replace the engines in a cruise ship. And not all ports can provide LNG refueling. 

 

As with progress in any industry, cruise lines will have to get clever and creative. A big, flashy ship isn't much good if nobody wants it in their ports. Maybe HAL can build smaller ships that burn LNG and charge more per cabin based on the smaller ship experience and longer itineraries? Perhaps future cruise destinations will include ports with fewer restrictions. Maybe the Philippines? They could certainly use the revenue. 

 

It's fun to consider the possibilities of solar-powered ships requiring no fuel. That kind of technology is way off if even possible at all. 

Whatever the future holds for cruising, I'm sure it will be interesting. No doubt people predicted doom for the cruise industry when airlines started flying trans-Atlantic then trans-Pacific. 

You have both larger and smaller ships running LNG as well you have ships that are also including battery systems to avoid all emissions in protected areas such as the Fjords in Norway.

 

The ship size will be a matter of economics with HALs positioning.  Longer than average cruise lengths, while maintaining a price structure in the mass market price range (i.e Celebrity, Cunard, Princess range).  It will be smaller that the other mass market lines due to the cruise length, but bigger then the premium lines.