Saga insist I book an adapted cabin

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

I use a portable folding wheelchair part time, I have found it essential on cruises or I am too tired to participate in activities or excursions.

I do not need an adapted bathroom (or any other adaptions) and I live in a 2 storey unadapted house. I have cruised with other companies who allow me to book an unadapted cabin, not least because I consider that taking an unneeded adapted cabin when there are so few available is morally wrong.

Saga will allegedly not let me do this. They insist that if I want to use a wheelchair on board at all I must have an adapted cabin, which somewhat reluctantly I agreed to since the alternative was not being allowed to travel at all. Unfortunately however only 2 of the 10 adapted cabins on board are standard grade (compared with 75% of unadapted cabins), both standard adapted cabins were of course already booked and so Saga wanted an additional 50% for an upgraded cabin. Needless to say the booking wasn't completed.

 

I'm amazed at this blatant discrimination, which I've never come across before. Is this truly their policy or was I being misled?

 

Further research is that there are 50 'assistance' places, so 40 of those passengers must be accomodated in unadapted cabins. They allow 10 wheelchairs on board, but presumably can count to 10 regardless of where the passenger is to be accomodated. They say there is nowhere in a standard cabin to store a wheelchair which folds to the size of a medium suitcase and which has previously been accomodated in the much smaller cabins of their rivals and even in a cabin on a cross channel ferry! Apparently they are only allowed to refuse to accomodate me in an undapted cabin on safety grounds, can anyone think of a single safety risk that wouldn't be equally present if they put me in an adapted cabin?

[JoJo1947]

37 minutes ago, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

I use a portable folding wheelchair part time, I have found it essential on cruises or I am too tired to participate in activities or excursions.

I do not need an adapted bathroom (or any other adaptions) and I live in a 2 storey unadapted house. I have cruised with other companies who allow me to book an unadapted cabin, not least because I consider that taking an unneeded adapted cabin when there are so few available is morally wrong.

Saga will allegedly not let me do this. They insist that if I want to use a wheelchair on board at all I must have an adapted cabin, which somewhat reluctantly I agreed to since the alternative was not being allowed to travel at all. Unfortunately however only 2 of the 10 adapted cabins on board are standard grade (compared with 75% of unadapted cabins), both standard adapted cabins were of course already booked and so Saga wanted an additional 50% for an upgraded cabin. Needless to say the booking wasn't completed.

 

I'm amazed at this blatant discrimination, which I've never come across before. Is this truly their policy or was I being misled?

 

Further research is that there are 50 'assistance' places, so 40 of those passengers must be accomodated in unadapted cabins. They allow 10 wheelchairs on board, but presumably can count to 10 regardless of where the passenger is to be accomodated. They say there is nowhere in a standard cabin to store a wheelchair which folds to the size of a medium suitcase and which has previously been accomodated in the much smaller cabins of their rivals and even in a cabin on a cross channel ferry! Apparently they are only allowed to refuse to accomodate me in an undapted cabin on safety grounds, can anyone think of a single safety risk that wouldn't be equally present if they put me in an adapted cabin?

If you need a wheelchair to use around the ship and it's Saga's policy why moan about it here. It's not discrimination as needing this around the ship is h&s policy including adapted cabin. What other cruise lines are irrelevant.You've also have to consider it as a trip hazard stored in the cabin and that includes injury to crewThem's the rules like it or not. However I either use a lightweight wheelchair or rollator off ship so I have an ordinary cabin. Saga store it and at each port it's outside the gangway  ready for collection. Great service. Assistance at Port Saga have 50 places and you will be assisted at Muster and emergency on board. It can be a long walk for some from terminal to ship and wheelchair assistance is booked . I use it as do others who don't use disability apparatus on board. It's not just for people in adapted cabins . 

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

I am nearly 4 times more likely than someone who does not use a wheelchair on board to be required to pay 50% more as there are so few standard adapted cabins, which IS blatant discrimination. Why make 80% of the adapted cabins deluxe or suites? Are wheelchair users for some reason more likely to want an expensive cabin? Or maybe Saga would prefer they didn’t book at all.

I’ve contacted the Maritime and Coastguard Agency who have confirmed there is no safety issue in carrying me in an unadapted cabin but, as always with discrimination issues, unless you’re prepared to take it to court yourself there’s very little that can be done other than complain,

if you were prevented from travelling with Saga for no good reason, would you just say nothing? Blanket policies such as this are almost always discriminatory. Would you feel the same if the first sentence above read that women are 4 times more likely to be charged more?

And, in the unlikely event that I actually managed to get an adapted cabin, how is that fair to someone who can’t travel at all without one?

[FangedRose]

As a solo passenger I am 100% more likely to pay more.

[Windsurfboy]

All the adapted cabins are larger than a standard cabin. 

 

The safety grounds they state are that you cannot store a wheel chair safely in a standard cabin.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Windsurfboy

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

According to their own website a standard adapted cabin is exactly the same size as a standard unadapted cabin.

My chair folds to the size of a medium suitcase. I simply do not believe there is insufficient room in a Saga cabin to store it. As said above, I have safely stored my chair in any number of cabins including on a cross channel ferry, and if this was a genuine safety issue, why are Saga the only cruise line (that I have found so far) with this policy?

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

6 hours ago, FangedRose said:

As a solo passenger I am 100% more likely to pay more.

Saga also insist that I am accompanied so I have to pay for two people even though I have zero care needs, however most cruise lines have this policy so harder to argue that it's not a safety issue. I can at least imagine a few scenarios where I might need another person to help me, but probably no more likely than any other passenger given the average age on board.

[silversurf]

We now book as early as possible as I am also a part time wheelchair user. 

A friend recently travelled with us. She took her folding wheelchair, which was stored until she went ashore and used a rollator around the ship.

I do not really need an adapted cabin ( but the wet room is useful), but I need my wheelchair on the ship.

Looking at the standard cabins I believe there would be plenty of room for my small folding wheelchair.

However, Saga ship, Saga rules.

 

[lincslady]

I'm being a bit devious here, but could it be that Saga prefer not to have too many  passengers needing to use their chair on the ship  at any one time?  

[Lady Meer]

23 minutes ago, lincslady said:

I'm being a bit devious here, but could it be that Saga prefer not to have too many  passengers needing to use their chair on the ship  at any one time?  

+ 1

[FangedRose]

33 minutes ago, Lady Meer said:

+ 1

Not devious, but practical. In an emergency wheelchair users will need one to one assistance to negotiate stairs (lifts will be switched off) and (god forbid) to get into lifeboat. Also wheelchairs take up more space in said lifeboat. So it is entirely reasonable to limit the number of wheelchair users. All cruiselines follow much the same protocols. 

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

19 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

Not devious, but practical. In an emergency wheelchair users will need one to one assistance to negotiate stairs (lifts will be switched off) and (god forbid) to get into lifeboat. Also wheelchairs take up more space in said lifeboat. So it is entirely reasonable to limit the number of wheelchair users. All cruiselines follow much the same protocols. 

In an emergency some wheelchair users may need one to one assistance, some won’t. In fact 80% of wheelchair users can walk, and in the event of an emergency issues relating to pain and fatigue would definitely take second place to getting to the lifeboat as quickly as possible. I’m sure many of the non wheelchair users on board would need much more assistance than I would.
I have no argument with Saga limiting the number of wheelchairs used on board, my issue is in insisting that I occupy an adapted cabin for no reason. They allow 10 wheelchairs on board, are they really not capable of counting 10 wheelchair bookings unless those bookings are in adapted cabins? And what happens to a non-wheelchair user who needs an adapted cabin? Are they allocated a wheelchair space anyway?

[FangedRose]

1 minute ago, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

In an emergency some wheelchair users may need one to one assistance, some won’t. In fact 80% of wheelchair users can walk, and in the event of an emergency issues relating to pain and fatigue would definitely take second place to getting to the lifeboat as quickly as possible. I’m sure many of the non wheelchair users on board would need much more assistance than I would.
I have no argument with Saga limiting the number of wheelchairs used on board, my issue is in insisting that I occupy an adapted cabin for no reason. They allow 10 wheelchairs on board, are they really not capable of counting 10 wheelchair bookings unless those bookings are in adapted cabins? And what happens to a non-wheelchair user who needs an adapted cabin? Are they allocated a wheelchair space anyway?

It's the same principle for restricting the number of children on board according to spaces in the children's club, and the number of trained and certified staff on board, even though many of the children won't use the services. They have to be able to do so if necessary. The same reasoning applies, even though some wheelchair users won't need extra assistance, they have to assume that they all will. They can't assume the opposite.

Same with lifeboats. They have to carry spaces for maximum number of passengers (and crew) even though the ship may not be rammed to the gunnels, they have to assume and plan as if it is.

[twotravellersLondon]

8 minutes ago, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

In an emergency some wheelchair users may need one to one assistance, some won’t. In fact 80% of wheelchair users can walk, and in the event of an emergency issues relating to pain and fatigue would definitely take second place to getting to the lifeboat as quickly as possible. I’m sure many of the non wheelchair users on board would need much more assistance than I would.
I have no argument with Saga limiting the number of wheelchairs used on board, my issue is in insisting that I occupy an adapted cabin for no reason. They allow 10 wheelchairs on board, are they really not capable of counting 10 wheelchair bookings unless those bookings are in adapted cabins? And what happens to a non-wheelchair user who needs an adapted cabin? Are they allocated a wheelchair space anyway?

 

Is this issue perhaps something to do with the support team normally allocated on every cruise to assist those passengers in adapted cabins to ensure their safety, the safety of other passengers and the safety of the crew in case of a real emergency... and the assumption that people in those cabins may need the maximum level of support required by marine regulations? Just a thought.

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

14 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

It's the same principle for restricting the number of children on board according to spaces in the children's club, and the number of trained and certified staff on board, even though many of the children won't use the services. They have to be able to do so if necessary. The same reasoning applies, even though some wheelchair users won't need extra assistance, they have to assume that they all will. They can't assume the opposite.

Same with lifeboats. They have to carry spaces for maximum number of passengers (and crew) even though the ship may not be rammed to the gunnels, they have to assume and plan as if it is.

This does not address the issue of why they insist I must be in an adapted cabin. When I tried to book I was told there were 8 wheelchair spaces left but they still would not accept a booking unless Imhad an adapted cabin.

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

11 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

Is this issue perhaps something to do with the support team normally allocated on every cruise to assist those passengers in adapted cabins to ensure their safety, the safety of other passengers and the safety of the crew in case of a real emergency... and the assumption that people in those cabins may need the maximum level of support required by marine regulations? Just a thought.

If this was the case surely all cruise lines would have the same policy. Saga is the only one I’ve ever come across who won’t let me book an unadapted cabin despite already insisting that I am accompanied by someone to provide any necessary assistance on board since the staff only provide assistance to board and disembark at the beginning and end of the cruise and in the event of an emergency, and if someone does need more assistance they can insist that they leave the ship altogether.

[FangedRose]

1 minute ago, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

This does not address the issue of why they insist I must be in an adapted cabin. When I tried to book I was told there were 8 wheelchair spaces left but they still would not accept a booking unless Imhad an adapted cabin.

Probably a space issue. Even folded it will be an extra obstacle to avoid in an emergency.

 

Or, door width to enable egress with wheelchair in use. Which they have to assume will be necessary in an emergency. They won't/can't wait while somebody struggles to exit the cabin on foot. They only have your word that you can manage. They have to assume that you can't.

[FangedRose]

5 minutes ago, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

If this was the case surely all cruise lines would have the same policy. Saga is the only one I’ve ever come across who won’t let me book an unadapted cabin despite already insisting that I am accompanied by someone to provide any necessary assistance on board since the staff only provide assistance to board and disembark at the beginning and end of the cruise and in the event of an emergency, and if someone does need more assistance they can insist that they leave the ship altogether.

I have never known a cruise line allow a wheelchair user to use a non adapted cabin. Going by comments on relevant threads wheelchair = adapted cabin. If you know different book with them. Saga won't change their rules for one person, thin end of the wedge etc

 

Anyway Saga Ship, Saga Rules.

Edited June 28, 2023 by FangedRose

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

Thanks for all the comments/opinions. It seems that there is in fact no safety related issue at play here so I can only assume that Saga are

a) dinosaurs with a very outdated view of wheelchair users being some homogeneous group all of whom are unable to leave their chairs, or

b) making every possible effort to discourage (dare I say younger?) more mobile wheelchair users from travelling with them.

I am disappointed. I really wanted to try a Saga cruise even though I’m definitely at the lower end of their age demographic but I will not on principle pay a 50% surcharge when I’m already expected to pay for a companion. Oh well, back to Fred Olsen.

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

5 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

Probably a space issue. Even folded it will be an extra obstacle to avoid in an emergency.

 

Or, door width to enable egress with wheelchair in use. Which they have to assume will be necessary in an emergency. They won't/can't wait while somebody struggles to exit the cabin on foot. They only have your word that you can manage. They have to assume that you can't.

Did you read the rest of the thread? No space issue and quite frankly implying that Saga would assume I was lying is offensive. 

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

11 minutes ago, FangedRose said:

I have never known a cruise line allow a wheelchair user to use a non adapted cabin. Going by comments on relevant threads wheelchair = adapted cabin.

I have just returned from a cruise with Fred Olsen and have also cruised with P & O, Cunard, Marella etc etc and none of them made me book an adapted cabin.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Fourwheelsonmywagon

[FangedRose]

Just now, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

Did you read the rest of the thread? No space issue and quite frankly implying that Saga would assume I was lying is offensive. 

Unfortunately people do. If you tell a doctor you drink two pints a day they assume four. I was on a cruise where somebody had two full blown epileptic fits, he should have been accompanied, but he downplayed his condition to get on board. So it is not surprising that cruise lines will assume the worst.

[Windsurfboy]

4 hours ago, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

I have no argument with Saga limiting the number of wheelchairs used on board, my issue is in insisting that I occupy an adapted cabin for no reason. They allow 10 wheelchairs on board, are they really not capable of counting 10 wheelchair bookings unless those bookings are in adapted cabins? And what happens to a non-wheelchair user who needs an adapted cabin? Are they allocated a wheelchair space anyway?

 

If you are happy as you say for Saga to restrict the number of wheelchair users on board to 10 , and they have 10 adapted cabins. Then if a wheelchair user uses a non adapted cabin, that would leave one adapted cabin either unoccupied or being used by a non wheelchair user.

 

Therefore your only real complaint, and one can see is very logical, is why are only 2 out of 10 adapted cabins standard cabins, which I presume have sold out.

[Fourwheelsonmywagon]

38 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

If you are happy as you say for Saga to restrict the number of wheelchair users on board to 10 , and they have 10 adapted cabins. Then if a wheelchair user uses a non adapted cabin, that would leave one adapted cabin either unoccupied or being used by a non wheelchair user.

 

Therefore your only real complaint, and one can see is very logical, is why are only 2 out of 10 adapted cabins standard cabins, which I presume have sold out.

This is the root of the problem. Why are only 20% of adapted cabins standard grade when 75% of unadapted cabins are standard? This is why I am nearly 4 times more likely to have to book a deluxe cabin than someone who is not a wheelchair user. Any policy which makes it four times more likely that someone with a protected characteristic will have to pay more than someone without that characteristic is fundamentally discriminatory. I already have to pay for two people to travel (I don't like it, but nearly all the cruise lines insist on that one so it's not worth fighting) so adding an extra 50% premium for a deluxe cabin is just a step too far - the per person price of the cruise I was trying to book was £4500, had I completed the booking I'd have been paying £13,500.

According to the sales person I spoke to, in order to get one of the standard adapted cabins I would have to register on a priority list at a cost of £90 and wait however many years it takes before I get to first or second on that list since those 2 standard adapted cabins are always booked before the brochure is on general release. 

FYI It's not only wheelchair users who need adapted cabins. My Mum needs a wet room with plenty of handrails on land, at sea a fall would be pretty much inevitable in an unadapted bathroom but she doesn't use a wheelchair or any other walking aid so Saga wouldn't allow her to book an adapted cabin despite the obvious risk, which just proves how barmy the policy is.

[JoJo1947]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:34 PM, Fourwheelsonmywagon said:

I am nearly 4 times more likely than someone who does not use a wheelchair on board to be required to pay 50% more as there are so few standard adapted cabins, which IS blatant discrimination. Why make 80% of the adapted cabins deluxe or suites? Are wheelchair users for some reason more likely to want an expensive cabin? Or maybe Saga would prefer they didn’t book at all.

I’ve contacted the Maritime and Coastguard Agency who have confirmed there is no safety issue in carrying me in an unadapted cabin but, as always with discrimination issues, unless you’re prepared to take it to court yourself there’s very little that can be done other than complain,

if you were prevented from travelling with Saga for no good reason, would you just say nothing? Blanket policies such as this are almost always discriminatory. Would you feel the same if the first sentence above read that women are 4 times more likely to be charged more?

And, in the unlikely event that I actually managed to get an adapted cabin, how is that fair to someone who can’t travel at all without one?

I'd accept their rules and move on. Take them to a tribunal.