Spa 18% gratuity misleading

[Robisan]

1 hour ago, saminina said:

Multiply 5 times a day and the feeling sorry begins to wear thin.  It is not a bad gig.

Perhaps you might want to watch the video in post 18 above and reconsider.

[cruiseej]

1 hour ago, saminina said:

Multiply 5 times a day and the feeling sorry begins to wear thin.  It is not a bad gig.

Hmmm… Multiply what amount by 5 times a day to get to "not a bad gig"?

 

I guess the question is what one would consider to be a decent annual salary for working on a cruise ship? Let's assume someone on a ship works approximately the same number of days as a worker on land, e.g. 5 days a week x 49 weeks a year = 245 work days. But on a cruise ship, that would be working 7 days a week for 35 weeks: a contact of 18 weeks (4.5 months) of working every day, followed by 9 weeks off, 17 weeks on, 8 weeks off, or something close to that. So in those 245 working days, how much do a spa workers earn? If the nail technician does $100 treatments for 5 times a day, they get 18% of $500, or $90 per day. For 245 work days, that's $22,000 a year. For being away from home for 4-5 months at a time, working more than 100 days in a row without days off or holidays. To me, that sounds like pretty bad gig. 😉

[Robisan]

7 minutes ago, cruiseej said:

If the nail technician does $100 treatments for 5 times a day, they get 18% of $500, or $90 per day.

Also note, if the pay structure is similar to what's described in the video above then some of that $90/day will be withheld to cover room and board on the ship. In the video the withhold is $70/day.

[saminina]

25 thousand tax free dollars sounds good.  Party on.....sign me up for another contract.  So I would have said in 1952.  You can even adjust for inflation, but I demand to be on a ship built after 2010.

[SDuckers]

59 minutes ago, saminina said:

25 thousand tax free dollars sounds good.  Party on.....sign me up for another contract.  So I would have said in 1952.  You can even adjust for inflation, but I demand to be on a ship built after 2010.

Why would you think those would be "tax free" dollars?

[frantic36]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:35 PM, FlyerTalker said:

Lots of places to have a quality job done onshore.  For example, right at the Singapore Harbour Centre cruise terminal, there are a couple of excellent shops where Mrs FT has had her nails done.

 

Thanks for this and it is what I plan to do when I have an overnight in Darwin later in the year. Our January cruise though has so many sea days and Hawaii and other small ports won't work. It's fine though as I have budgeted to do my nails on the ship and after learning the reality won't begrudge the added gratuity.

[alexandria]

I don't mean any offense, but I just don't understand this apparent obsession about the method and amount of compensation received by those who work on board in the spa (I presume as independent contractors or employees of a vendor, not employees of Seabourn).  Isn't that a matter best left to those involved?  The parties involved enjoy freedom of choice and freedom of contract and if the compensation system and amount is not acceptable to them, they can pursue other options (prior comment by a poster equating their circumstances to slavery notwithstanding).

 

Or shall we broaden the scope of the discussion to consider the compensation of every person who works onboard, from the Captain to the laundry room workers.  If we are going to be completely thorough, perhaps we should also ascertain how much each back office and shore based employee of Seabourn is paid.

 

Personally, I don't investigate and discuss how much is earned by our local UPS or FedEx drivers, the clerk at our local grocer or the lab tech at my physician's office.  Nor do I involve myself in how a gratuity in a service oriented business is distributed or shared, I simply tip based upon the quality of the service provided.  And never have I experienced someone in a business relationship sharing with me, as a customer, how much they are paid or complaining about the conditions of their employment...I would consider it highly unprofessional and inappropriate if they were to engage with me in such a discussion.

 

The issue of whether or not there is sufficient and proper disclosure of any automatic gratuity/service charge for spa services is certainly something to be aware of but frankly I just don't see how any of the other issues are any of our business. 

[cruiseej]

51 minutes ago, alexandria said:

The issue of whether or not there is sufficient and proper disclosure of any automatic gratuity/service charge for spa services is certainly something to be aware of but frankly I just don't see how any of the other issues are any of our business. 

 

I think it's somewhat of an issue, just like with restaurant workers in the US. If you know your server is being paid under $3/hour, you're more likely to tip them than if they were paid a regular (at least minimum) wage. In this case, customers might feel differently about asking for an automatic 18% gratuity to be removed from their bill if they knew this was the only pay the person serving them was receiving. Otherwise, no, we don't need to know the annual pay of anyone on board. 

 

6 hours ago, saminina said:

25 thousand tax free dollars sounds good.  Party on.....sign me up for another contract.  So I would have said in 1952.

 

Yes, fun fact: $25,000 in pay in 1952 is now equivalent to about $290,000. But what's that got to do with anything in this discussion? Making jokes about low-paid service workers doesn't strike me as funny.

[Hobar]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:08 AM, whogo said:

What was the old system at the spa? "Gratuities are neither required nor expected"?

 

Do spa workers push you to buy product on Seabourn? I assume that is a major source of income for spa workers and the concessionaire on other cruise lines.

Been travelling SB for over 20 years. I don’t recall that tips ever included in the price.  The receipt always had a separate line to add tip. Only past couple of years has the gratuity been automatically added. (And of course, one can always add more.)

[sfvoyage]

2 hours ago, alexandria said:

Or shall we broaden the scope of the discussion to consider the compensation of every person who works onboard, from the Captain to the laundry room workers.  If we are going to be completely thorough, perhaps we should also ascertain how much each back office and shore based employee of Seabourn is paid.

 

Personally, I don't investigate and discuss how much is earned by our local UPS or FedEx drivers, the clerk at our local grocer or the lab tech at my physician's office...

 

Faulty comparison & analysis that is totally missing the point 😞

 

All those other positions are paid a guaranteed salary.  The spa staff, on the other hand, is paid by commission, which can be as low as zero.  (In the long run and on average, the highs and the lows will average out, and they may end up making enough to satisfy their needs, but there is no guarantee - and that is the main difference.)

[alexandria]

4 hours ago, sfvoyage said:

 

Faulty comparison & analysis that is totally missing the point 😞

 

All those other positions are paid a guaranteed salary.  The spa staff, on the other hand, is paid by commission, which can be as low as zero.  (In the long run and on average, the highs and the lows will average out, and they may end up making enough to satisfy their needs, but there is no guarantee - and that is the main difference.)

No, I don't believe I am missing the point. 

 

My point is that when I, as a consumer, am patronizing a business, I shouldn't concern myself with the compensation of those who work for that business.  I know a number of sales people whose compensation is entirely commission based.  But I don't inquire about the sufficiency of their pay when I am making a decision about purchasing a new vehicle or a new house.  I negotiate the best possible price and make my purchase.  I'm not going to pay more than that to ensure the sales person is paid more or has a good standard of living.  Similarly at a restaurant.  I tip based upon the quality of the service provided.  I don't tip based upon my perception of how much that server earns and what they need to maintain a good standard of living.  I am not responsible for whether the earnings of any person is "guaranteed" to satisfy their needs.  (Leaving out the discussion of common misconceptions of "needs" vs "wants".)

 

So I disagree about the point, or appropriateness, of this discussion about the pay for spa staff, whether they are paid by commission, gratuity, a combination or some other means.  If the spa staff isn't satisfied with their employment situation, they can (and do) seek employment elsewhere.  But I'm not going to buy something in the spa I wouldn't otherwise buy, I'm not going to pay inflated prices for products I can purchase elsewhere for much less, and I'm not going to tip more than I would otherwise (based upon the quality of the service provided) to ease my conscience about the compensation of the spa staff.  And if the enjoyment of my massage was diminished having to endure a high-pressure sales pitch for overpriced spa products or listen to the spa staff gripe about their pay, I may well reduce the gratuity (or even eliminate it if it really gets out of hand.) 

 

Additionally, while I don't believe it to be a frequently employed tactic, there are some manipulative people paid largely by commission or tips who will complain about "low pay" to a customer in order to engender sympathy and increase their sales or their gratuities!  So I caution folks not to believe everything they read and see online or are told by others.  Not everyone is honest and forthright.  Without having access to complete and accurate financial records, nobody can make any judgments about the earnings of spa staff.  It is mere speculation.

 

In short, it is my opinion that regarding the choices others make about their employment, their compensation, and their financial affairs, people should simply mind their own business.  Nie mój cyrk, nie moje małpy. 

 

But that is just my opinion.  You are certainly welcome to disagree!  🙂

[frantic36]

1 hour ago, alexandria said:

You are certainly welcome to disagree!  🙂

Okay. I disagree, probably because I know not everyone has easy choices.🙂

[Breckski]

13 hours ago, alexandria said:

I don't mean any offense, but I just don't understand this apparent obsession about the method and amount of compensation received by those who work on board in the spa (I presume as independent contractors or employees of a vendor, not employees of Seabourn).  Isn't that a matter best left to those involved?  The parties involved enjoy freedom of choice and freedom of contract and if the compensation system and amount is not acceptable to them, they can pursue other options (prior comment by a poster equating their circumstances to slavery notwithstanding).

 

Or shall we broaden the scope of the discussion to consider the compensation of every person who works onboard, from the Captain to the laundry room workers.  If we are going to be completely thorough, perhaps we should also ascertain how much each back office and shore based employee of Seabourn is paid.

 

Personally, I don't investigate and discuss how much is earned by our local UPS or FedEx drivers, the clerk at our local grocer or the lab tech at my physician's office.  Nor do I involve myself in how a gratuity in a service oriented business is distributed or shared, I simply tip based upon the quality of the service provided.  And never have I experienced someone in a business relationship sharing with me, as a customer, how much they are paid or complaining about the conditions of their employment...I would consider it highly unprofessional and inappropriate if they were to engage with me in such a discussion.

 

The issue of whether or not there is sufficient and proper disclosure of any automatic gratuity/service charge for spa services is certainly something to be aware of but frankly I just don't see how any of the other issues are any of our business. 

 

Exactly.  When I purchase items/services I never ask the provider how much they make.  My purchases are made on how I perceive value. 

 

I assume the ee's entered into their employment agreement of their own freewill.  Now if the ee's are not working by their own choice that'd be a different story.

 

However, I dislike employers putting the burden of ee compensation on customers in the form of gratuities.  We're simply seeing too much of this approach from entities in the US.  But I do not allow this burden to impact my determination of value - it's irrelevant.

 

[markham]

If it is true that the spa concession pays little or no direct compensation to these hopeful and eager young employees and all they earn is tips that is disgraceful. We are not living in the Middle Ages accepting the plague as one of those scourges that comes and goes.

 

Everyone in employment at a touted luxury line is entitled to a minimum wage. Period.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[Utopia1]

With all the "wisdom" of spa gratuities on this forum--- I still don't know know if the additional gratuity I add goes entirely to the person who provided the service.

[markham]

Is that so? Why not add a bit of wisdom of your own to the forum and report back with your research.

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

[sfvoyage]

2 hours ago, Utopia1 said:

With all the "wisdom" of spa gratuities on this forum--- I still don't know know if the additional gratuity I add goes entirely to the person who provided the service.

According to the youtube video upthread, the additional gratuity goes entirely to the staff member.

[BasandSyb]

Interesting divider of opinions on this one from burying your head in the sand - nothing to see here - I don’t care if my goods come from sweat shops etc - why should I care if someone in my sphere of influence doesn’t earn a decent basic wage for a days work TO  choosing not to use the “service”.

 

Where is Seabourn in this if passengers on a so called luxury line are being harangued and harassed for tips and commissions. 

 

If it is true it’s a complete embarrassment. Everyone deserves a basic wage. Payment based on tips only perpetuates a black market of tax avoidance and grovelling servitude.

 

I wonder how the free massage for Seabourn loyalty members plays out. 
 

Some of us do have a real freedom of choice. If it is correct I will be voting with my feet and spend my money ashore with a complaint to Seabourn HQ about their concessionaire. 
 

 

 

[Robisan]

18 hours ago, alexandria said:

Personally, I don't investigate and discuss how much is earned by our local UPS or FedEx drivers, the clerk at our local grocer or the lab tech at my physician's office.  Nor do I involve myself in how a gratuity in a service oriented business is distributed or shared,...

18 hours ago, alexandria said:

And never have I experienced someone in a business relationship sharing with me, as a customer, how much they are paid or complaining about the conditions of their employment...I would consider it highly unprofessional and inappropriate if they were to engage with me in such a discussion.

This is not an issue of nosy customers or unprofessional staff. This all came to light as a result of the operator's ham-handed scheme to raise prices and profits without raising the list tariff rates by shifting employee costs to a newly instituted 18% gratuity - on sailing line where all other (and all prior) gratuities were included in the fare. Some customers citing tradition (and gratuities included marketing promises) refused to pay, resulting in staff not being compensated for work.

 

Now you may say 'not my problem, I pay fairly for good service, sucks for them, they can always work elsewhere, etc.' but it's fair to ask: Do you think those customers who were queuing up for gratuity refunds unrelated to the service received would want the staff who provided the service to go unpaid? How are they to know what is occurring without someone on staff finally speaking up and reaching out?

 

Employers and employees are not the only parties involved here. Seabourn customers also have agency too, for without them there is no business. Now you may say 'I pay a fair price for the services I purchase and if they are rendered in exploitive sweatshops that doesn't concern me.' From my interactions, most Seabourn customers have some conscience, empathy and sense of human decency such that whenever possible they'd prefer to not patronize sweatshops, notwithstanding the fact that some less fortunate people find themselves employed there.

 

So, I say bravo to the brave staff who spoke up for themselves. There has always been a strong bond between Seabourn staff and passengers, for it is the staff that makes experience, not the Home Office heads and beancounters, who should be ashamed to be part of what's apparently occurring in the spa.

[sfvoyage]

The fundamental issue here is inequity.  Again, the spa is the only department on the ship whose staff members do not get a base pay, and the argument is probably because that is the only department on the ship whose staff members receive a tip from guests, which, as already mentioned, is variable and not guaranteed.  There are days when the spa staff would be getting no business, and hence they made the comment about "starving" sometimes.

 

When we visit a spa at a luxury hotel on land, would we expect the spa workers to work for tips and nothing else?   I don't know, but I'd guess not, at least not in a luxury hotel in a first world country like the US.

 

Many of the spa workers hail from the third world and are working on ships not necessarily to "see the world and have a good time" but to make money to send home to support their family.  Over the years, I have met and become fond of many of the wonderful Seabourn team members.  At times, I have also noticed when the spa staff have no or few appointments and look sad.

 

We are all free to do and think as we wish.  And when going on a luxury cruise, many of us are focused on enjoying ourselves and getting pampered and would prefer not to see, hear, or think about non first world issues and unpleasantness.  I get it.  But hope springs eternal...

[Utopia1]

I have used the Steiner Salons on various ships for over 25 Yeats.  The automatic 18% mandatory gratuity is really an 18% price increase to the passengers.

 

 FYI the 18% was added sometime after the 2023 world cruise.  It was a surprise to me-- but I guess I am always (but shouldn't be) at sudden price increases.  I was on the ship for almost two months this fall and I never heard anyone complain about the 18% gratuity in the spa/salon .

 

I don't think this forum will settle anything because we are all entitled to our own opinion .  IF  an additional gratuity goes entirely to the person who provides the service I will be satisfied.

 

For those who disagree with me I think letters to Seabourn and Steiner will have more weight than airing your dissatisfaction on this forum. 

 

 

[BasandSyb]

Sfvoyage, I've just had a chance to review the video you posted. Thank you.

Very ordinary remuneration. In my book any automatically added gratuity is presumptive and immoral. If it's being used in lieu of an employer paying wages that is even worse.

 

The below is interesting in terms of their upselling and playing on customers:

https://www.cruisingascrew.com/what-is-it-like-to-work-for-steiner-on-a-cruise-ship/

 

So much for a relaxing time at the spa 🙂 

[Utopia1]

The spa employees are not hired by Seabourn nor do they share in the crew fund.  

 

Seabourn terminated their contract with Thomas Keller--- perhaps it is time to terminate their contract with Steiner (the company that operates the spa) Steiner was sold years ago and I may be using the wrong name for the corporation that operates the spa.

 

I am also annoyed at the hard push to sell the Elemis products (also owned by the same corp. that operates the spa.)  I tell the operators who I use at the beginning that I have my own inventory of Elemis products and will not be buying any.  Later, I was told that each operator has a quota of what they are expected to sell-- I was never able to verify this.

 

I agree that it is inappropriate and totally wrong to have this hard sell experience.  The idea of going to the spa is relaxation- not shopping.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[saminina]

1 hour ago, Utopia1 said:

 Later, I was told that each operator has a quota of what they are expected to sell-- I was never able to verify this.I

Isn't this entire thread based on "I was told"?   Followed by "never able to verify."

[Utopia1]

35 minutes ago, saminina said:

Samina-  Your reply is partially correct-" I was told" by the operator who was doing my hair and trying to sell products-- but I was not able to "verify" it with the corporation who operates the spa.