Surcharges for drinks in Retreat Lounge

[HMR74]

1 hour ago, Dolebludger said:

I liked the posts above contrasting what used to be good business practices to what they are now. Management goals used to be establishment of regular, repeat customers, and working to expand that base. Regulars cost less to keep (massive advertising isn’t required) and a strong repeat base produces reliable, predictable revenues in the long term which aids long term planning. 
 

Now, all that matters is meeting or exceeding quarterly revenue goals, without regard for impact on the longer term. Often, changes and actions that improve quarterly revenues have an adverse impact in the long term. 
 

In Celebrity’s case, there is probably pressure on quarterly revenues. While ships are sailing pretty full, many are using FCCs from the pandemic. These produce no new fare revenues. So it looks like Celebrity is panicking  — trying to raise current revenue even in little, silly things (I.e., the cookie fiasco). And now the little silly thing is to surcharge guests who have bought AI drink packages. And Celebrity has raised Retreat fares above its real competition, which is the high premium and lux lines. Hopefully, these panic moves will all go the way of the cookie fiasco. And hopefully, Celebrity will stop making panic moves and cuts. Until it does, we all would do well to shop around other lines and select one with some confidence that we will get what we book. 
 

In the military we all were taught “don’t panic — that never works out well”. Perhaps those in charge at Celebrity were never taught this — or have forgotten it. 

 

Perhaps X is a rudderless ship??  Punny??

 

Seriously, chew on this as an example. At GE in the late 1990's Jack Welch was going to retire and had 3 "wonderboys" to pick from to succeed him.

 

He picked Jeff Immelt, who, while it took several years screwed up that franchise.

Bob Nardelli went on to screw up Home Depots in less than 2 years but got a 240 mil severance package.

 

The third wonderboy, Jim MacNerney, went forst to 3M and he left there within 2 years and went on to Boeing. In 2008 or so, he is the one who made the decision onthe 737Max (remember that fiasco) to not spend on redesigning the fuselege. Thast important becase with bigger and bigger engines for fuel efficiency, the engines had to be pushed foreward to get clearance when taking off or landing, and that disrupted the air flow over he wings,. . Rather than redesigning the fuselege to be higher off the ground to get the clearance they pushed it even further forward and used software to make adjustments in flight to make it work

 

the rest is History.

 

3 boy wonders and no common sense.

It can occur anywhere including X which had a fantastic rep for food/dining and just the good vibe  and experience while on board.

 

Shoreside services  was never great.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by HMR74

[DingoMom]

18 minutes ago, Rmoosh said:

So I’m wondering how the conversation went about the upcharge ? Were you offered another option in the premium package ?

They had very few (most restaurants had NO) white wines in the premium package that did NOT have an up charge. White wine in the classic package was easy to find. I wish I had copied the white wine list. As far as I recall, most of the white wines were in the $10 - $12 range, there was one for $13, and the next price point was $19. 
(Note - the reds had more variety and many more price points, some of which were clearly in the premium package without a surcharge.)

[Dolebludger]

I could list a number of businesses that made bad moves, putting the short term over the long term. They include JC Penney, Pier One, Bed Bath and Beyond, Sears, and too many others to list. They have one thing in common. They are no longer with us. It took a while, but they went under. It seems like every day, I read about changes in Celebrity’s program, usually negative for guests, and often after guests had paid for the cruise. This is no way to ”run a railroad”, or a cruise line. We are not booked on Celebrity and won’t be until (unless) this stuff stops.

[markeb]

1 hour ago, Dolebludger said:

I liked the posts above contrasting what used to be good business practices to what they are now. Management goals used to be establishment of regular, repeat customers, and working to expand that base. Regulars cost less to keep (massive advertising isn’t required) and a strong repeat base produces reliable, predictable revenues in the long term which aids long term planning. 
 

Now, all that matters is meeting or exceeding quarterly revenue goals, without regard for impact on the longer term. Often, changes and actions that improve quarterly revenues have an adverse impact in the long term. 
 

In Celebrity’s case, there is probably pressure on quarterly revenues. While ships are sailing pretty full, many are using FCCs from the pandemic. These produce no new fare revenues. So it looks like Celebrity is panicking  — trying to raise current revenue even in little, silly things (I.e., the cookie fiasco). And now the little silly thing is to surcharge guests who have bought AI drink packages. And Celebrity has raised Retreat fares above its real competition, which is the high premium and lux lines. Hopefully, these panic moves will all go the way of the cookie fiasco. And hopefully, Celebrity will stop making panic moves and cuts. Until it does, we all would do well to shop around other lines and select one with some confidence that we will get what we book. 
 

In the military we all were taught “don’t panic — that never works out well”. Perhaps those in charge at Celebrity were never taught this — or have forgotten it. 

 

 

I'm going to agree and disagree.

 

Remember that Celebrity is a subsidiary of RCG; the brand president no longer even wears the CEO title. It seems pretty apparent that Liberty and the Board are under pressure and pressuring their subordinates to produce revenue for shareholders. That's kind of their ultimate job.

 

Liberty is a finance guy. LHB has an operations background. With pressure to produce revenue, they're going to default to form. And it's not just quarterly. I'm pretty sure it's been several years since RCG even paid a dividend. A strategic change could take years to have an impact. That leaves nibbling on the margins with slight increases in revenue where you can and slight decreases in expenses where you can. But those conflict with the strategic position of a "near luxury" (whatever that really means) cruise line winning awards for its food and beverage programs in particular. That always looked great as a customer. I don't know that it was as profitable as we all thought? They're changing their strategy through operational decisions, rather than a well thought out process where the strategy informs the operations and finance. It's not fun to watch and I'm glad I'm not on the inside of this...

 

I don't think Celebrity views the true luxury lines as its real competition. I know you do, and it is for you. Celebrity is (or was very recently) targeting the younger, affluent demographic, probably starting at 35-40 and going up to the mid 50's. Those are folks who might cruise with them for another decade or more. That's not the true luxury lines real market, and Celebrity can/could offer product there that the luxury lines don't. Such as 7 day cruises from easily accessible ports. Even if you're paying less on Regent (for instance) but the cruise is longer than you can take off, and/or it takes you an extra day to reach the cruise and return, you're not looking at that cruise. Obviously Celebrity happily takes repeat customers outside that demographic, and for the Retreat, those customers likely are and should compare the true luxury lines.

 

Nibbling at the margins is a symptom to me. Lesser wines for more money. More upcharges. Drinks priced over the drink package limit.  That's NOT what they should be doing especially for their highest margin passengers (the Retreat). People pay the Retreat prices in part to not deal with that. To me the disease is they've lost sight of their overall business strategy. They spent a lot of money on the Edge class in particular to make the Retreat and its all included offerings the keystone of their strategy. And then they insist on defeating that advantage by silly things like a $2.40 upcharge for a wine you can probably buy at Walmart!

 

Time to sit back and enjoy the holidays. At home.

Edited December 23, 2023 by markeb

[riredsox]

2 hours ago, ETHTrader said:

Pretty much. Some are even higher, closer to $30s

What ship are you on?  The most expensive dink is the good zacapa rum that is smoked and that is $22.  Most drinks are $17 and $19. 

[Dolebludger]

When I refer to Celebrity’s competition as being the lux lines, I was referring to the Retreat. Once, it was a 99% alternative to a lux line at about 60% of the cost. Not now. Other categories on Celebrity seem to be fully competitive in price and inclusions with other mass market lines. For those who want to book at that level, Celebrity is something that should be considered. We used to book at that level. Then we discovered that we were spending much more in “extras” and coming home in a bad mood. So we switched up, cruised less, and stayed home when we couldn’t foot the bill (which happened a lot).

[markeb]

1 minute ago, Dolebludger said:

When I refer to Celebrity’s competition as being the lux lines, I was referring to the Retreat. Once, it was a 99% alternative to a lux line at about 60% of the cost. Not now. Other categories on Celebrity seem to be fully competitive in price and inclusions with other mass market lines. For those who want to book at that level, Celebrity is something that should be considered. We used to book at that level. Then we discovered that we were spending much more in “extras” and coming home in a bad mood. So we switched up, cruised less, and stayed home when we couldn’t foot the bill (which happened a lot).

I’m also talking about the Retreat. But the demographic with money but not time. They’re not likely to cross shop the lux lines’ longer and sometimes more difficult to reach cruises. And they fit squarely in the demographic Celebrity seems to be targeting. 

[DaKahuna]

23 minutes ago, riredsox said:

What ship are you on?  The most expensive dink is the good zacapa rum that is smoked and that is $22.  Most drinks are $17 and $19. 

 

 That's Zacapa XO.  That is what was used to make the Zacapa Above the Clouds on my very first trip to the WCB. It was not then, nor to my knowledge ever, covered by the Premium drink package. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by DaKahuna

[Rmoosh]

1 hour ago, DingoMom said:

They had very few (most restaurants had NO) white wines in the premium package that did NOT have an up charge. White wine in the classic package was easy to find. I wish I had copied the white wine list. As far as I recall, most of the white wines were in the $10 - $12 range, there was one for $13, and the next price point was $19. 
(Note - the reds had more variety and many more price points, some of which were clearly in the premium package without a surcharge.)

As a white wine drinker, guess I’ll be bringing my own!

[r2h2]

53 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

I'm going to agree and disagree.

 

Remember that Celebrity is a subsidiary of RCG; the brand president no longer even wears the CEO title. It seems pretty apparent that Liberty and the Board are under pressure and pressuring their subordinates to produce revenue for shareholders. That's kind of their ultimate job.

 

Liberty is a finance guy. LHB has an operations background. With pressure to produce revenue, they're going to default to form. And it's not just quarterly. I'm pretty sure it's been several years since RCG even paid a dividend. A strategic change could take years to have an impact. That leaves nibbling on the margins with slight increases in revenue where you can and slight decreases in expenses where you can. But those conflict with the strategic position of a "near luxury" (whatever that really means) cruise line winning awards for its food and beverage programs in particular. That always looked great as a customer. I don't know that it was as profitable as we all thought? They're changing their strategy through operational decisions, rather than a well thought out process where the strategy informs the operations and finance. It's not fun to watch and I'm glad I'm not on the inside of this...

 

I don't think Celebrity views the true luxury lines as its real competition. I know you do, and it is for you. Celebrity is (or was very recently) targeting the younger, affluent demographic, probably starting at 35-40 and going up to the mid 50's. Those are folks who might cruise with them for another decade or more. That's not the true luxury lines real market, and Celebrity can/could offer product there that the luxury lines don't. Such as 7 day cruises from easily accessible ports. Even if you're paying less on Regent (for instance) but the cruise is longer than you can take off, and/or it takes you an extra day to reach the cruise and return, you're not looking at that cruise. Obviously Celebrity happily takes repeat customers outside that demographic, and for the Retreat, those customers likely are and should compare the true luxury lines.

 

Nibbling at the margins is a symptom to me. Lesser wines for more money. More upcharges. Drinks priced over the drink package limit.  That's NOT what they should be doing especially for their highest margin passengers (the Retreat). People pay the Retreat prices in part to not deal with that. To me the disease is they've lost sight of their overall business strategy. They spent a lot of money on the Edge class in particular to make the Retreat and its all included offerings the keystone of their strategy. And then they insist on defeating that advantage by silly things like a $2.40 upcharge for a wine you can probably buy at Walmart!

 

Time to sit back and enjoy the holidays. At home.

Great explanation! Just got off a 5 day sailing on The Summit in Aqua Class and don't drink booze so the price increases did not bother me but the food quality is going downhill. The Ribeye was the worst I ever had(grisle and thin).  Could not even get Cheesecake for desert the last 4 nights! Not even a mention of any lobster meal available. The music they played at the pool is great if you are 20 years old(Rap and thump) but they missed the demo on board by 30 years.

[Dolebludger]

17 minutes ago, Rmoosh said:

As a white wine drinker, guess I’ll be bringing my own!

I will not pay retreat prices and have to bring my own wine.

[HMR74]

the PDF on drink packages. As you see the wines are not that all specific. Actually  quite vague.

On Whisky, as I noted they dropped Crown Royal for a couple of years but substituted Woodford, which in stores is about 30-40% more. Raw cost per glass on CR is $4-5 at best,, depending on generosity,  and Woodford is 6-7.

 

 Best pour ever was at a supper club on the Mississippi north of La Crosse Wisconsin, full glass  with just 2 ice cubes, with glass of ice on the side; $6 maybe 5-6 years ago.

 

X used to celebrate its depth of selection of wine.

 

Spring 2019 we booked on the TA on Infinity and wanted to order one of the wine plans, we were told they stopped  selling those because they ran out of wine storage space.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by HMR74

[drakes2]

16 hours ago, HMR74 said:

I discovered Aperol Spritz in a vacation to Greece and Italy this past spring and most of those were $10 or less but it's on premium package: hopefully not a surcharge.

Aperol Spritzers are my go to summer cocktail nice and refreshing with an orange wheel and topped with sparkling water however, I thought it was on the premium package. They make them very weak on all the cruise ships, taste nothing like what I make at home. 

[HMR74]

20 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

I will not pay retreat prices and have to bring my own wine.

be nice to server and you might avoid corkage, which I think is $25 a bottle if you do not have the drink package.

Or get  twist caps on bottles and pre-drink in cabin.

[markeb]

22 minutes ago, HMR74 said:

the PDF on drink packages. As you see the wines are not that all specific. Actually  quite vague.

On Whisky, as I noted they dropped Crown Royal for a couple of years but substituted Woodford, which in stores is about 30-40% more. Raw cost per glass on CR is $4-5 at best,, depending on generosity,  and Woodford is 6-7.

 

 Best pour ever was at a supper club on the Mississippi north of La Crosse Wisconsin, full glass  with just 2 ice cubes, with glass of ice on the side; $6 maybe 5-6 years ago.

 

X used to celebrate its depth of selection of wine.

 

Spring 2019 we booked on the TA on Infinity and wanted to order one of the wine plans, we were told they stopped  selling those because they ran out of wine storage space.

 

 

 

 

Since the thread is about the Retreat, the point for many of us is that differentiation hasn't really ever existed. There was probably a cutoff on price, but you never really saw it. I never saw a Macallan 25, or even 18, in the Retreat, as an example, but there was never an issue with most any other liquor. The Retreat bartender would usually track down something passengers on the cruise were drinking if they weren't stocking it the first day. That was usually wine, but sometimes whisky as well.

 

And the list is pretty much obsolete before they hit "Save as PDF". For instance in mid-November, the Retreat had Buffalo Trace, the Balvenie 12 year Triple Wood (travel version), Macallan Quest, and eventually I believe a Glenmorangie travel edition. None of those are on that list. All were available in various venues, and were available at the Retreat bar. With no concern about price.

[HMR74]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

I'm going to agree and disagree.

 

Remember that Celebrity is a subsidiary of RCG; the brand president no longer even wears the CEO title. It seems pretty apparent that Liberty and the Board are under pressure and pressuring their subordinates to produce revenue for shareholders. That's kind of their ultimate job.

 

Liberty is a finance guy. LHB has an operations background. With pressure to produce revenue, they're going to default to form. And it's not just quarterly. I'm pretty sure it's been several years since RCG even paid a dividend. A strategic change could take years to have an impact. That leaves nibbling on the margins with slight increases in revenue where you can and slight decreases in expenses where you can. But those conflict with the strategic position of a "near luxury" (whatever that really means) cruise line winning awards for its food and beverage programs in particular. That always looked great as a customer. I don't know that it was as profitable as we all thought? They're changing their strategy through operational decisions, rather than a well thought out process where the strategy informs the operations and finance. It's not fun to watch and I'm glad I'm not on the inside of this...

 

I don't think Celebrity views the true luxury lines as its real competition. I know you do, and it is for you. Celebrity is (or was very recently) targeting the younger, affluent demographic, probably starting at 35-40 and going up to the mid 50's. Those are folks who might cruise with them for another decade or more. That's not the true luxury lines real market, and Celebrity can/could offer product there that the luxury lines don't. Such as 7 day cruises from easily accessible ports. Even if you're paying less on Regent (for instance) but the cruise is longer than you can take off, and/or it takes you an extra day to reach the cruise and return, you're not looking at that cruise. Obviously Celebrity happily takes repeat customers outside that demographic, and for the Retreat, those customers likely are and should compare the true luxury lines.

 

Nibbling at the margins is a symptom to me. Lesser wines for more money. More upcharges. Drinks priced over the drink package limit.  That's NOT what they should be doing especially for their highest margin passengers (the Retreat). People pay the Retreat prices in part to not deal with that. To me the disease is they've lost sight of their overall business strategy. They spent a lot of money on the Edge class in particular to make the Retreat and its all included offerings the keystone of their strategy. And then they insist on defeating that advantage by silly things like a $2.40 upcharge for a wine you can probably buy at Walmart!

 

Time to sit back and enjoy the holidays. At home.

pre covid, RCL group was showing a healthy 20% pretax profit on sales. I think its back there now, but look at prices to get there

The rennovation of M and S class was expensive and now we see new E class are costing well over a billion.

 

Sister Royal has its Icon fleet--a big capital spend , with huge debt necessary. no room for problems.

 

I forgot how much debt is on books, mid to upper teens, and RCL pays higher interest due to weak balance sheet. Its interest cost is too much. Nearly 2 billion a year next year.   Somebody has to pay. I know they do not want to discuss that aspect.

 

RCL group expanded too much too fast. Probably the others too.

 

[ETHTrader]

1 hour ago, riredsox said:

What ship are you on?  The most expensive dink is the good zacapa rum that is smoked and that is $22.  Most drinks are $17 and $19. 

Currently on Silhouette

 

Old Fashioned was $25 + tip. Drinks are way more expensive than I remember

[HMR74]

37 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Since the thread is about the Retreat, the point for many of us is that differentiation hasn't really ever existed. There was probably a cutoff on price, but you never really saw it. I never saw a Macallan 25, or even 18, in the Retreat, as an example, but there was never an issue with most any other liquor. The Retreat bartender would usually track down something passengers on the cruise were drinking if they weren't stocking it the first day. That was usually wine, but sometimes whisky as well.

 

And the list is pretty much obsolete before they hit "Save as PDF". For instance in mid-November, the Retreat had Buffalo Trace, the Balvenie 12 year Triple Wood (travel version), Macallan Quest, and eventually I believe a Glenmorangie travel edition. None of those are on that list. All were available in various venues, and were available at the Retreat bar. With no concern about price.

with the newest edge class , Luminae and Retreat club are in vastly different places.So some of upscale drinks which are kept there now, mightnpt be practicaly avaialble in Blu or MDRS.  Juat thinking about the whys.

 

We do not need to know the whys of the various issues except if I do look at whys, we begin to understand that fixes are not forthcoming.

Edited December 23, 2023 by HMR74

[High on the Seas]

52 minutes ago, ETHTrader said:

Currently on Silhouette

 

Old Fashioned was $25 + tip. Drinks are way more expensive than I remember

Can you post the menu?

[Ex-Airbalancer]

1 hour ago, drakes2 said:

Aperol Spritzers are my go to summer cocktail nice and refreshing with an orange wheel and topped with sparkling water however, I thought it was on the premium package. They make them very weak on all the cruise ships, taste nothing like what I make at home. 

   18 hours ago,  HMR74 said: 

I discovered Aperol Spritz in a vacation to Greece and Italy this past spring and most of those were $10 or less but it's on premium package: hopefully not a surcharge

 

 

 

Last April it was extra $1.20 for a Aperol Spitzer , and every bar made it differently 🤣

[terrydtx]

1 minute ago, Ex-Airbalancer said:

 

   18 hours ago,  HMR74 said: 

I discovered Aperol Spritz in a vacation to Greece and Italy this past spring and most of those were $10 or less but it's on premium package: hopefully not a surcharge

 

 

 

Last April it was extra $1.20 for a Aperol Spitzer , and every bar made it differently 🤣

In Italy it is made with Aperol and Prosecco and very refreshing in hot weather. 

[Ex-Airbalancer]

4 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

In Italy it is made with Aperol and Prosecco and very refreshing in hot weather. 

That is  how it made in our house 😁

[DaKahuna]

2 hours ago, drakes2 said:

Aperol Spritzers are my go to summer cocktail nice and refreshing with an orange wheel and topped with sparkling water however, I thought it was on the premium package. They make them very weak on all the cruise ships, taste nothing like what I make at home. 

 

Try writing your recipe on a 3x5 card.  Take a couple of those with you on your cruise and hand one to the bartender. I'd be willing to bet they would make it to your specifications if they had all the ingredients. 

 

My "go to" for a refreshing drink is either a Sidecar or a Cucumber Martini. 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by DaKahuna

[Rmoosh]

47 minutes ago, Ex-Airbalancer said:

 

   18 hours ago,  HMR74 said: 

I discovered Aperol Spritz in a vacation to Greece and Italy this past spring and most of those were $10 or less but it's on premium package: hopefully not a surcharge

 

 

 

Last April it was extra $1.20 for a Aperol Spitzer , and every bar made it differently 🤣

That’s crazy ! Should be a classic drink for sure !

[drakes2]

52 minutes ago, Ex-Airbalancer said:

 

   18 hours ago,  HMR74 said: 

I discovered Aperol Spritz in a vacation to Greece and Italy this past spring and most of those were $10 or less but it's on premium package: hopefully not a surcharge

 

 

 

Last April it was extra $1.20 for a Aperol Spitzer , and every bar made it differently 🤣

Don't like them on the cruise ships especially in small plastic glasses and too much ice.  They tasted very watered down.