Is NCL back to adding the 10% VAT to all Free at Sea "purchases" while in Spanish waters?

[graphicguy]

44 minutes ago, astera said:

 

Are we talking about an "extra surchage" being added to your account for every free drink you get as part of your free-at-sea package?

I view this as people blaming the cruise lines for the VAT taxes in Spain.  It's a tax charged by the countries in question (Spain, in this instance).  It's not an "extra surcharge" by the cruise lines.

 

Again, some cruise lines bake it into their fares.  NCL shows it up front.

 

If you buy anything from the local stores while in port, they will also show the VAT added to your total purchase as a line item.

[d9704011]

9 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

If you buy anything from the local stores while in port, they will also show the VAT added to your total purchase as a line item.

Well, yes.  I sort of agree with you on the first part but the difference between the store on shore and NCL is that people had it in kind that they've already paid everything for their drink when they purchased the free at sea package; not quite the same as making a shore-side purchase.

Edited June 10 by d9704011

[graphicguy]

9 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Well, yes.  I sort of agree with you on the first part but the difference between the store on shore and NCL is that people had it in kind that they've already paid everything for their drink when they purchased the free at sea package; not quite the same as making a shore-side purchase.

You'd have to address that with the government of Spain.  They are the ones charging the VAT.

 

Free at Sea does cover the drinks.  It does not include the taxes.  There are many locales (like the Caribbean) that don't have a VAT.  So, you won't see it charged.  In Spain, they expect the VAT to be charged (or included in the fare so you don't see it), whether on land or when the cruise ships are in waters governed by Spain.

 

 

[d9704011]

Just now, graphicguy said:

You'd have to address that with the government of Spain.  They are the ones charging the VAT.

 

Free at Sea does cover the drinks.  It does not include the taxes.  There are many locales (like the Caribbean) that don't have a VAT.  So, you won't see it charged.  In Spain, they expect the VAT to be charged (or included in the fare so you don't see it), whether on land or when the cruise ships are in waters governed by Spain.

 

 

No, I don't have to square this up with the Spanish government; I have zero problem with them charging VAT.  It's your suggestion that purchasing so ething in a shore-side store and paying the VAT is much the wame as presenting cruise passengers with an adxitional VAT charge when the believed they had already paid all the taxes, service charges, etc....  If a cruise line does not intend to absorb VAT on goods and services paid for onboard, they chould clearly identify this to the passengers in advance.

[graphicguy]

5 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

No, I don't have to square this up with the Spanish government; I have zero problem with them charging VAT.  It's your suggestion that purchasing so ething in a shore-side store and paying the VAT is much the wame as presenting cruise passengers with an adxitional VAT charge when the believed they had already paid all the taxes, service charges, etc....  If a cruise line does not intend to absorb VAT on goods and services paid for onboard, they chould clearly identify this to the passengers in advance.

OK...let me clarify.  So, you're saying NCL should let you know that Spain charges a VAT?  I've seen signs on NCL ships stating as much warning of the charge prior to purchasing drinks.  

 

Did they not have those signs at the bars on your cruise?

[d9704011]

19 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

OK...let me clarify.  So, you're saying NCL should let you know that Spain charges a VAT?  I've seen signs on NCL ships stating as much warning of the charge prior to purchasing drinks.  

 

Did they not have those signs at the bars on your cruise?

Forget it, you win.

[schmoopie17]

23 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I've seen signs on NCL ships stating as much warning of the charge prior to purchasing drinks.  

 

Did they not have those signs at the bars on your cruise?

We had four Spain ports on our November, 2022 TA. All of the bars had the signs.

 

Well, until I stole all of the signs. I figured if there was no sign, they wouldn't charge it.

I figured wrong...

[graphicguy]

46 minutes ago, schmoopie17 said:

We had four Spain ports on our November, 2022 TA. All of the bars had the signs.

 

Well, until I stole all of the signs. I figured if there was no sign, they wouldn't charge it.

I figured wrong...

Now schmoopie.....!!!!!  LOL!

 

They did have the VAT signs up on my Mediterranean cruise last October.  But, we had only 2 Spanish ports....Barcelona and Majorca.

 

The stores I visited while in port also had the additional VAT signs up.  Matter of fact, they did what NCL did...they showed the price of the item and then the additional VAT that would be added to the charges.

Edited June 10 by graphicguy

[astera]

10 hours ago, graphicguy said:

I view this as people blaming the cruise lines for the VAT taxes in Spain.  It's a tax charged by the countries in question (Spain, in this instance).  It's not an "extra surcharge" by the cruise lines.

 

VAT in Europe is something that is ALWAYS included in the price, NEVER added on afterwards. Where you're from, possibly depending on the state, the price you see on the shelf - as illogical as it sounds - is not the price you pay at the counter. In Europe, the price you see on the shelf is ALWAYS the price you pay at the counter.

 

Companies need to factor in all taxes before displaying the final price. Obviously NCL has failed to do their homework...

 

10 hours ago, graphicguy said:

 

If you buy anything from the local stores while in port, they will also show the VAT added to your total purchase as a line item.

 

Nope. There is no "VAT added to your total purchase..." at all as VAT is already INCLUDED (not added) in the price.

 

The price you see on the shelf is the price that you will pay upon checkout at the store. Nothing more. If you see €9.99 then you will be charged €9.99 when paying.

 

The receipt you receive when leaving the store might simply inform you as to what the VAT amount was on your purchase, nothing else. Nothing was added.

[graphicguy]

Wished I kept my receipts from Spain and Italy when I was there in October.  They  CLEARLY showed the VAT on the receipts.  

 

When I was flying home to the U.S. I showed all the receipts with the VAT shown  at customs to get the VAT refunded (which was a monumental hassle).

 

 

Edited June 10 by graphicguy

[SoloAlaska]

57 minutes ago, astera said:

 

VAT in Europe is something that is ALWAYS included in the price, NEVER added on afterwards. Where you're from, possibly depending on the state, the price you see on the shelf - as illogical as it sounds - is not the price you pay at the counter. In Europe, the price you see on the shelf is ALWAYS the price you pay at the counter.

 

Companies need to factor in all taxes before displaying the final price. Obviously NCL has failed to do their homework...

 

 

Nope. There is no "VAT added to your total purchase..." at all as VAT is already INCLUDED (not added) in the price.

 

The price you see on the shelf is the price that you will pay upon checkout at the store. Nothing more. If you see €9.99 then you will be charged €9.99 when paying.

 

The receipt you receive when leaving the store might simply inform you as to what the VAT amount was on your purchase, nothing else. Nothing was added.

BAT being included is a huge PITA for me. Try being a manufacturer with recommended retail prices but then VAT varies all over. Some shops complain and won’t buy my product because I don’t account for the vat in every single country varying. It’s a “recommended price” charge whatever works for you as long as it’s not less and I’m happy. Omg rant over on selling to Europe. 
 

VAT is a pain for international trade including cruise lines.

[astera]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Wished I kept my receipts from Spain and Italy when I was there in October.  They  CLEARLY showed the VAT on the receipts.  

 

When I was flying home to the U.S. I showed all the receipts with the VAT shown  at customs to get the VAT refunded (which was a monumental hassle).

 

 

 

Like I said it's not added on afterwards but already included in the price. €9.99 shelf price will always be €9.99 upon checkout.

 

The receipt might simply show how much of that was VAT for informational purposes.

 

I agree that claiming VAT (GST) is always a pain, and you always seem to get roughly half of it back after all the administrative fees, etc. 🙂

 

26 minutes ago, SoloAlaska said:

BAT being included is a huge PITA for me. Try being a manufacturer with recommended retail prices but then VAT varies all over. Some shops complain and won’t buy my product because I don’t account for the vat in every single country varying. It’s a “recommended price” charge whatever works for you as long as it’s not less and I’m happy. Omg rant over on selling to Europe. 
 

VAT is a pain for international trade including cruise lines.

 

I agree, it's what the world has become with all the complexities. On a positive note the EU VAT system has been simplified for overseas sellers so that I believe you now only need to account in one place. Look up the EU VAT One Stop Shop.

[graphicguy]

We violently agree.  State and Municipal taxes in the U.S. are similar to the VAT.  They are part of the price charged but are listed on receipts as separate line items.

 

NCL is doing the same with the VAT….paint it as a separate line item when in Spain!

 

Some cruise lines are burying it into their fares without showing the VAT as receipts normally will!

[astera]

21 hours ago, graphicguy said:

We violently agree.  State and Municipal taxes in the U.S. are similar to the VAT.  They are part of the price charged but are listed on receipts as separate line items.

 

NCL is doing the same with the VAT….paint it as a separate line item when in Spain!

 

Some cruise lines are burying it into their fares without showing the VAT as receipts normally will!

 

It's all the same everywhere. Except in the US they are added LATER and not included in the price shown, or has something changed? In the EU they have to be in included in the price displayed, so nobody really pays much attention to it.

 

I don't know exactly what NCL are doing but from what I've read it seems they're trying to add something to the price that should already be included in the price within the EU.

 

Where and when exactly are they applying those charges? If you have "free-at-sea" are they adding additional surcharges to FREE drinks when docked in certain ports?

[graphicguy]

 Receipt with VAT..

 

Receipts for drinks while in Spanish probably show up on daily charges you can view on the TV in your cabin.

 

Outside of Spanish ports and waters, the VAT won’t be charged.  

 

Not sure what Spain did, but when I was on the Epic last October in Barcelona, the Capt said Spain had changed some rule recently forcing them to charge the VAT.  Signs announcing that were at all bars.

 

Talking to others in port on a HAL ship  next to us said the fares jumped about 2 weeks before their cruise that matched the VAT on the drink packages!

 

Edited June 12 by graphicguy

[shmabbies]

I'm more concerned about the tax being added to the cost of the specialty meals (free at sea, prepaid, or otherwise).  Someone posted the new Cagney's menu, for example, and at the bottom is this statement:  Your check may reflect an additional tax in certain ports or itineraries.  I assume the new Bistro menu says the same thing (maybe this isn't a new statement, I don't know, I just noticed it).  So per this thread if I'm dining while the ship is still in Spain or Italy, which I may very well be doing if the ship doesn't leave until 7 or 8 pm, and I'm being "charged" the ridiculous menu prices, am I going to incur VAT on those prices?  Even at a conservative 10% that could mean an additional per meal charge of $10-20 or more for the table at the prices I'm seeing on the menu.  And is it charged from the time you are seated or from the time you vacate the table i.e. if you sit at 6pm while still in port but vacate the table at 8pm after the ship sails.   Or if I order my appetizer while the ship is in port but don't order my main course until after it sails, what gets taxed?    I don't like the sound of this at all and I especially don't like the uncertainty of "MAY reflect an additional tax."  I see my entire SBC being eaten up (no pun intended) by VAT because we plan on eating at the specialty restaurants a lot.  And if you breakfast or lunch at Cagney's while the ship is in port, then what?  Hopefully someone will tell me I'm overthinking this but I don't like that line at the bottom of the menu.

[KeithJenner]

18 minutes ago, shmabbies said:

I'm more concerned about the tax being added to the cost of the specialty meals (free at sea, prepaid, or otherwise).  Someone posted the new Cagney's menu, for example, and at the bottom is this statement:  Your check may reflect an additional tax in certain ports or itineraries.  I assume the new Bistro menu says the same thing (maybe this isn't a new statement, I don't know, I just noticed it).  So per this thread if I'm dining while the ship is still in Spain or Italy, which I may very well be doing if the ship doesn't leave until 7 or 8 pm, and I'm being "charged" the ridiculous menu prices, am I going to incur VAT on those prices?  Even at a conservative 10% that could mean an additional per meal charge of $10-20 or more for the table at the prices I'm seeing on the menu.  And is it charged from the time you are seated or from the time you vacate the table i.e. if you sit at 6pm while still in port but vacate the table at 8pm after the ship sails.   Or if I order my appetizer while the ship is in port but don't order my main course until after it sails, what gets taxed?    I don't like the sound of this at all and I especially don't like the uncertainty of "MAY reflect an additional tax."  I see my entire SBC being eaten up (no pun intended) by VAT because we plan on eating at the specialty restaurants a lot.  And if you breakfast or lunch at Cagney's while the ship is in port, then what?  Hopefully someone will tell me I'm overthinking this but I don't like that line at the bottom of the menu.

That line has been there for years.

 

It is possible that in some situations you could be charged tax on your food (food is Vatable in certain circumstances and not in others depending on the country and how/where you eat it), but this isn’t an issue that I recall seeing comments about.

 

The fact that the line is still on the menu makes it no more or less likely that people could be charged it in future.

[Asawi]

4 hours ago, shmabbies said:

I'm more concerned about the tax being added to the cost of the specialty meals (free at sea, prepaid, or otherwise).  

Yes, that is a slight worry for me as well. Last year people were charged 20% tax while in France. (That was later changed). That would make $15-20 for a solo speciality meal and to me, they simply aren't worth that! So if I know beforehand about that charge I won't have that dinner. The problem is how to know. NCL has a disclaimer in the dailies that VAT will be added on food and drinks, but then it turns out it isn't added on food. And possibly not on drinks either. Even if the signs are on the bar (yes, I have had several beers when that sign was there and not been charged). Which of course is good news, but still... That is part of the reason this topics comes up now and then. NCL inconsistency

[graphicguy]

I wish I would have thought to ask the Capt during the M&G the rule changes Spain had implemented regarding the VAT and cruise ships when I was sailing in the Mediterranean.  But, he said it was causing confusion and changes in the way the cruise lines had to charge guests.  He made it a point that NCL was being up front with the VAT charges and their implementations in Spain, particularly.

 

There was chatter for a while that NCL may find other ports in the Mediterranean as a result of Spain's VAT implementations.

 

And, like @Asawi, I saw the signs about the VAT on my cruise, too.  The VAT was charged, and then removed on my cruise.  

 

As @KeithJenner point out, the verbiage regarding charges on drink and food menus have been there for many years.  That's not a new phenomina.

 

From others I've spoken to, regardless of cruise line, it's an issue that all the cruise lines sailing in Spain (and France?) are implementing in different ways and still struggling with.

 

I don't think Spain (in particular) is doing themselves any favors with this change in policy and helter skelter implementation.  And, it seems to be a "Spain issue" specifically.

 

Edited June 12 by graphicguy

[shmabbies]

Thanks for the input and also the knowledge that that menu line has been there for years.  My last NCL cruise was pre-Covid and I did not recall seeing it before (likely as you have pointed out it was there and I just didn't notice it). I hope pax will continue to post their experiences because our plan is to eat specialty every night for 16 nights of a TA with many of the ports in Spain and Italy and this could result in a very large tax bill!

[European_CruiseGirl]

On 6/10/2024 at 5:20 PM, graphicguy said:

Now schmoopie.....!!!!!  LOL!

 

They did have the VAT signs up on my Mediterranean cruise last October.  But, we had only 2 Spanish ports....Barcelona and Majorca.

 

The stores I visited while in port also had the additional VAT signs up.  Matter of fact, they did what NCL did...they showed the price of the item and then the additional VAT that would be added to the charges.

Now if someone did this they are breaking the law. In EU you have to show the full price which includes tax. It’s clear and simple. If someone indeed did this to you in EU you were hoaxed.  

[cruiseny4life]

21 minutes ago, shmabbies said:

Thanks for the input and also the knowledge that that menu line has been there for years.  My last NCL cruise was pre-Covid and I did not recall seeing it before (likely as you have pointed out it was there and I just didn't notice it). I hope pax will continue to post their experiences because our plan is to eat specialty every night for 16 nights of a TA with many of the ports in Spain and Italy and this could result in a very large tax bill!

I hope you're buying the multiple meal dining package rather than paying a la carte??

[graphicguy]

23 minutes ago, European_CruiseGirl said:

Now if someone did this they are breaking the law. In EU you have to show the full price which includes tax. It’s clear and simple. If someone indeed did this to you in EU you were hoaxed.  

I'm not sure about the laws in Spain, or the legality of any particular establishment, but the places I bought something, or the restaurants I ate/drank at, had a VAT shown on the receipt.  I bought jewelry, food, drink, and mementos....all those stores showed a VAT on the receipt.  They had a total, but the VAT was also clearly shown.  Not sure why that's illegal, but OK.  It's Spain.  I adhere to what they charged as I'm their guest.

 

Very similar to U.S., but we just call ours "sales tax"....

 

 

Edited June 12 by graphicguy

[shmabbies]

17 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

I hope you're buying the multiple meal dining package rather than paying a la carte??

That's the plan - we get three FAS I believe, and two Diamond, and the rest will be by dining package purchased from my US home computer, unless I find out in a concrete way in advance that I'm going to have to pay VAT while on the ship on something I have pre-purchased in the US in US$, which will likely make me change my mind and not make the purchase at all.  Mr. Shmabbies BTW is diehard NYY.

[European_CruiseGirl]

52 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

I'm not sure about the laws in Spain, or the legality of any particular establishment, but the places I bought something, or the restaurants I ate/drank at, had a VAT shown on the receipt.  I bought jewelry, food, drink, and mementos....all those stores showed a VAT on the receipt.  They had a total, but the VAT was also clearly shown.  Not sure why that's illegal, but OK.  It's Spain.  I adhere to what they charged as I'm their guest.

 

Very similar to U.S., but we just call ours "sales tax"....

 

 

Yes every receipt needs to show vat in Europe. However the price you see for example in a window of a store or restaurant menu includes the vat in the price. Only on the receipt it is separated. So if you ask in a store in EU how much something costs and someone says ”it’s 20€” or at a store see a sign that says something costs 20€ then 20€ is what you pay. Or if you go to a restaurant and the menu says your pasta dish is 15€ then 15€ is what you pay. The vat part is separated only in the receipt (yy item, zz vat = in total xx€ where xx is what you originally saw as the price ). You never ever see something advertised in EU with a vat free price and then suddenly have to pay on top the vat when you purchase it. That is illegal. In EU stores/restaurants/all places must advertise/tell up front what the total price (with vat) is. You never see one price advertised and then end up paying something that is higher. 

Edited June 12 by European_CruiseGirl