France Visa needed for Southampton to New York?

[th1054]

Hi all,

We're seeking advice or anyone with experience of the following situation:

- Travelling between Southampton and New York with Cunard

- Passenger is someone who needs a visa to enter France (for example, not an UK/EU/US national)

 

The Cunard Voyage from Southampton to New York makes a stop in Le Havre, France, lasting less than one day. My partner is a Chinese national living in the UK. Originally we assumed that if she stays on board during the stop in Le Havre, she wouldn't need to get a visa for France, but now we think it might be foolish to assume this. Due to her nationality, it is a big rigmarole to apply for a visa with lots of paperwork and advance planning required.

 

Can anyone advise based on experience: Will my partner require a Schengen Visa to board in the UK and disembark in the US, even if she does not disembark at Le Havre?

In other words, will Southampton Passport control deny her boarding if she does not have a Schengen Visa, even if she has a visa for the US, our destination?

 

So far, we have tried to find answers through various channels but it has proven next to impossible (details at the end of this post). Given the QM2 can take 2691 guests, I am thinking that based purely on probabilities, many if not most crossings likely involve at least one non-UK/EU/US guest, and therefore this situation must be very common?

 

If anyone here has any knowledge or experience with this situation, we would be extremely grateful for your advice!

 

***Additional info below***

 

> We have tried calling Cunard for advice and they are unable to comment, stating that no-one at Cunard would have the required knowledge;

> Cunard sent us to CIBT Visas. CIBT's website gives advice but only on the basis of your 'final destination' - so it doesn't cover this situation (an intermediate stop of less than one day, potentially remaining on board the ship).

> CIBT's main phone number is out of service, so Cunard gave us a chargeable 0800 number to call. After spending £16 on the phone call, CIBT 'suggested' that if she stays on the ship, she won't need a Schengen Visa, but they gave us a strong disclaimer that this was not advice, as they cannot be sure what they say is correct. Not really enough to bank on!

> CIBT Visas sent us to TLS Contact, but TLS could not offer any advice.

> CIBT Visas suggested contacting the French Consulate, but it is not possible to get through by phone.

 

We also do not know whether an 'airport transit visa' would be sufficient, or if it would need to be a full 'up to 90 days' visa. The latter, when applying online, does not let you select a departure date which is the same as arrival date. So our itinerary doesn't fit onto the form. (If you were to apply using the minimum selectable stay duration of one night, I believe you then have to provide evidence of both a travel booking on that date, and evidence of where in France you are staying overnight, neither of which would exist in our case.)

 

Thanks again for any and all advice!

Edited August 22 by th1054

[princeton123211]

10 minutes ago, th1054 said:

Can anyone advise based on experience: Will my partner require a Schengen Visa to board in the UK and disembark in the US, even if she does not disembark at Le Havre?

In other words, will Southampton Passport control deny her boarding if she does not have a Schengen Visa, even if she has a visa for the US, our destination?

Generally they are going to need a Schengen Visa. You are entering French territorial waters and and are therefore entering France even if they never get off the QM2. I have not seen this exact example, but I have seen it treated this way in the US and elsewhere in the EU on similar stops. The whole ship needs to be in compliance. 

 

You're going to most likely have to seek out an expert or immigration lawyer here regarding a transit visa but I would plan on getting the full visa.

 

Southampton passport control most likely won't be the ones to deny boarding (they don't police Schengen immigration) but Cunard will be the one to enforce this while boarding much like an airline would in a similar situation. My guess is a Chinese national is going to come under significant scrutiny. 

[th1054]

48 minutes ago, princeton123211 said:

Generally they are going to need a Schengen Visa. You are entering French territorial waters and and are therefore entering France even if they never get off the QM2. I have not seen this exact example, but I have seen it treated this way in the US and elsewhere in the EU on similar stops. The whole ship needs to be in compliance. 

 

You're going to most likely have to seek out an expert or immigration lawyer here regarding a transit visa but I would plan on getting the full visa.

 

Southampton passport control most likely won't be the ones to deny boarding (they don't police Schengen immigration) but Cunard will be the one to enforce this while boarding much like an airline would in a similar situation. My guess is a Chinese national is going to come under significant scrutiny. 

Thanks very much for your reply. We are prepared to go for the full visa if needed, the issue we have there is that the visa application form can't handle anything less than a one-night stay. We would therefore have to enter a false departure date. Currently our best idea is to submit this anyway (this then allows you to book the in-person appointment) then attempt to have the details changed during the appointment - which I am told there is some scope for. It's typical of our struggles with visas for my partner - always a big headache!

[princeton123211]

18 minutes ago, th1054 said:

We are prepared to go for the full visa if needed, the issue we have there is that the visa application form can't handle anything less than a one-night stay. We would therefore have to enter a false departure date.

I wouldn't think its "false" unless you were overstaying the visa. In this case, if you put the next day as the departure date, they're not going to be upset that you left the day before. They'd only take issue if you overstayed it. 

[fruitmachine]

The UK doesn't have passport control on exit.  It's up to the carrier to check that you have the necessary documentation for where they are taking you, so I'd go back to Cunard and push the point with them.  They will normally outsource the process to a company that does check-in and document checking for multiple cruise lines, so they may need to refer to them for their expertise.

 

If your partner does not cross the 'immigration' border in France, I can't see how it is any different from changing plane in Paris, where I'm fairly sure you wouldn't need a visa as long as you remain 'airside' (unlike a transit passenger in the USA, where I understand you do).

[princeton123211]

1 hour ago, fruitmachine said:

If your partner does not cross the 'immigration' border in France, I can't see how it is any different from changing plane in Paris, where I'm fairly sure you wouldn't need a visa as long as you remain 'airside' (unlike a transit passenger in the USA, where I understand you do).

I've seen this in other ports-- the ship is not considered to be contained like an airport. Once the ship enters the territorial waters of where it is visiting everyone is considered entering that country. 

 

Border control organizations from country to country have control of their respective airports. Not the same with a separately operated ship of different nationality. 

[Cotswold Eagle]

3 hours ago, princeton123211 said:

I've seen this in other ports-- the ship is not considered to be contained like an airport. Once the ship enters the territorial waters of where it is visiting everyone is considered entering that country. 

Have you seen this specifically in relation to a cruise ship calling at a first Schengen port after departure from a third country, as in this example? Such an approach would seem to be a breach of Section 3.2 of Annex VI of the Schengen Border Code, which has specific rules relating to cruise ships and states that entry checks should only be carried out on “passengers going ashore”. 

[bookbabe]

14 hours ago, Cotswold Eagle said:

Have you seen this specifically in relation to a cruise ship calling at a first Schengen port after departure from a third country, as in this example? Such an approach would seem to be a breach of Section 3.2 of Annex VI of the Schengen Border Code, which has specific rules relating to cruise ships and states that entry checks should only be carried out on “passengers going ashore”. 

We had to turn in passports to the ship for immigration checks ahead of our Schengen ports after leaving Turkey on a recent Med cruise.  We were never asked if we were leaving the ship at those ports, nor did there seem to be an option to opt out of this check. 
 

OP, I would assume your partner will need the visa.  

[th1054]

14 hours ago, Cotswold Eagle said:

Have you seen this specifically in relation to a cruise ship calling at a first Schengen port after departure from a third country, as in this example? Such an approach would seem to be a breach of Section 3.2 of Annex VI of the Schengen Border Code, which has specific rules relating to cruise ships and states that entry checks should only be carried out on “passengers going ashore”. 

This is interesting. Reading the code myself, it seems like section 3.2.3.a) is likely the relevant one: 

"

where the cruise ship comes from a port situated in a third country and calls for the first time at a port situated in the territory of a Member State, crew and passengers shall be subject to entry checks on the basis of the nominal lists of crew and passengers, as referred to in point 3.1.2."   This would explain the reports of operators checking documentation before admitting boarding to schengen areas - they would be making sure the ship has 100% compliance so as not to run into trouble as an operator. Therefore it looks likely that we will need the visa. 12 minutes ago, bookbabe said: We had to turn in passports to the ship for immigration checks ahead of our Schengen ports after leaving Turkey on a recent Med cruise.  We were never asked if we were leaving the ship at those ports, nor did there seem to be an option to opt out of this check.    OP, I would assume your partner will need the visa.   Thanks. Yes it is looking that way. We have managed to find a visa appointment slot which is three weeks in advance of our travel, which should be enough time for the checks to be completed and passport returned before we travel.

 

[onyx007]

There are stories of people not even allowed to board a ship if they had not the proper papers for every port there was...

[fruitmachine]

14 minutes ago, onyx007 said:

There are stories of people not even allowed to board a ship if they had not the proper papers for every port there was...

... which is why the answer that matters comes from the people that check your documentation prior to boarding.

[princeton123211]

3 hours ago, fruitmachine said:

... which is why the answer that matters comes from the people that check your documentation prior to boarding.

Whom you can't get in touch with because they are all outsourced by the cruise lines. Ultimately Cunard is responsible for making the decision to allow someone to board or not. But if the OP waits and doesn't get the visa with the hope that it's not necessary, this cannot be rectified pierside. 

[fruitmachine]

17 hours ago, princeton123211 said:

Whom you can't get in touch with because they are all outsourced by the cruise lines. Ultimately Cunard is responsible for making the decision to allow someone to board or not

Which is why Cunard need pushed on this.  It's their interpretation of the rules that matters.