First (last?) time HAL paranoia

[la_croisiere_s'amuse]

Well, we officially booked our first HAL cruise . . . BEFORE I realized the full extent of these deceptive pricing fiascos, and more troubling, the appalling attitude of HAL's customer service (and, apparently, the upper echelons of management). :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

Now, let me say, I am determined to enjoy my cruise, and will try hard to go in with no prejudice and form my own opinion of this cruiseline. However, since we too got a great deal that we found online, I'm a bit nervous about buying plane tickets etc. until we know FOR SURE that we're actually going.

 

In short: since apparently we can't draw any conclusions about what HAL would or would not do, I want to know what they can't do. Our final payment is due on the 18th, and reason would dictate that once we've paid in full, they can't change the price on us . . . right? :confused: Anybody in the know on issues like this?

 

And, just in case anybody from HAL is listening . . . I have to say it, I really can't see myself booking a second cruise with a company that shows so little regard for customer relations. Even if I never encountered this kind of pricing problem, it doesn't bode well for any other situation in which the passenger makes a good faith effort to do what is required, and still ends up holding the bag. :(

[hammybee]

If you read the terms and conditions of sailing associated with any cruise line, you will see that the carrier has the ability to increase the fare at anytime up to the point of embarkation. None of us HAL pals recall a situation where HAL did not honor the original price, exclusive of taxes and port charges, for which no cruise line has control.

 

I cannot make excuses for the way HAL handled the Noordam pricing screw-up. Some of it still makes no sense and was probably complicated by a breakdown in communications between HAL and the travel agencies, involved. Regardless of what happened and the position they took on that incident, it created unnecessary uncertainty for future passengers.

 

It is important to note that those who booked at erroneous prices were simply dissappointed. They did not incur hardship, physical pain, suffering or financial loss. The one passenger I am aware of who had booked air, worked it out, one on one, with HAL and her travel agent and is taking the cruise she planned.

 

It's a shame that we do not hear from the millions of HAL cruisers who benefit when HAL reduces their prices after initial booking and before final payment date. Try this with an airline or land tour.

 

You seem to have the right attitude about enjoying your cruise. If I were in your shoes, I would double check pricing before I made final payment in case there has been a reduction. Neither a cruise line or most T/A's are going to tell you about potential savings so it's up to each of us to stay abreast or know we paid a fair price at the time we booked and in doing so, perhaps got the cabin and/or dining assignment we wanted, by booking sooner rather than later.

 

Put this and other people's issues behind you and have yourself a fabulous cruise.

[hammybee]

BTW, I love your screen name. It was my favorite TV show, way back when.

[DAllenTCY]

Let's make this very clear. Airlines, hotels, Amtrak, tours ALL do the same. Your price is not guaranteed until you pay in full. Period. Let's not make this HAL does this and that discussion. This is the industry standard and has been for as long as I can recall, and I've got nothing but white hair on my head!

As for having second thoughts because of what you have read on this board, I'll bet you will learn of ways to enjoy your cruise, and hear more positive news than negative.

David

[DAllenTCY]

Sorry, my thoughts were interupted while typing...and I forgot an important issue. Once you've locked in your price by paying in full, you have only guaranteed your price....and ideally it is one that you feel is fair. Should the airline, hotel, tour, etc. decide to offer the same cabin, seat, room, tour for less to others at any future date, that is their perrogative. Rarely do cruise ships sail with less than 100% capacity....because they'll discount the last minute remaining space more and more until sailing. My point being that hotels, etc. do the same especially nowadays throught the internet. They don't owe the lower price to you because you made a commitment to them when you booked...indicating to them that you were recieving just value for your dollar. What they do with their excess space must be cost effective to them. What you will find; however, is that brand loyalty is valued, and when possible the tour, hotel, airline, or cruise line will reward you with upgrades.

If you feel that HAL is just out to get your money and could care less, why not but Carnival stock? That "deceptive pricing" could reward you.

David

[la_croisiere_s'amuse]

Let's make this very clear. Airlines, hotels, Amtrak, tours ALL do the same. Your price is not guaranteed until you pay in full. Period. Let's not make this HAL does this and that discussion.

David, I believe you may have misinterpreted my post . . . my question was about what happens after we have paid in full. I completely agree with you that once buyer and seller have agreed on a price and money has changed hands, what happens between that seller and another buyer is entirely up to them. I'm not talking about trying to get price reductions, my only concern is whether or not the seller will honor the price that we agreed upon.

 

And, I respectfully beg to differ . . . I believe that the heart of the matter is a "HAL does this and that" discussion. As many other posters have pointed out, making a pricing mistake and refusing ANY accountability for their error is indeed unusual, whether it be the travel industry or any other sort of sales. I believe it was Brian who made reference to "Errors and Omissions" insurance -- somebody else pointed out that a grocery store that makes a pricing error will give you the item free -- the point is that most corporations find it worthwhile to make at least some small gesture towards customer goodwill. One example a bit closer to home regards our upcoming Celebrity cruise. Some months after we booked, Celebrity pulled their ships out of Seattle in favor of Vancouver, which obviously is a bit of an inconvenience to passengers who planned on departing from Seattle. Celebrity, however, was very accomodating for those who wished to book another cruise, and gave those of us who stayed a generous onboard credit.

 

That is why I will politely decline your (tongue in cheek?) suggestion to buy Carnival stock. I realize that Holland America is only one small part of the corporation, but in my opinion, those who are responsible for recent decisions in this area are the ultimate example of "penny wise and pound foolish." Many, many current and potential customers are now on their guard, and hopefully HAL has learned from this incident and it will eventually fade from memory. If not . . . well, I suppose time will tell. :)

 

Hammybee: you make some excellent points, thank you for your input. And it's always great to meet another Love Boat fan. :D

[seaisme]

If you read the terms and conditions of sailing associated with any cruise line, you will see that the carrier has the ability to increase the fare at anytime up to the point of embarkation. None of us HAL pals recall a situation where HAL did not honor the original price, exclusive of taxes and port charges, for which no cruise line has control.

 

I cannot make excuses for the way HAL handled the Noordam pricing screw-up. Some of it still makes no sense and was probably complicated by a breakdown in communications between HAL and the travel agencies, involved. Regardless of what happened and the position they took on that incident, it created unnecessary uncertainty for future passengers.

 

It is important to note that those who booked at erroneous prices were simply dissappointed. They did not incur hardship, physical pain, suffering or financial loss. The one passenger I am aware of who had booked air, worked it out, one on one, with HAL and her travel agent and is taking the cruise she planned.

 

It's a shame that we do not hear from the millions of HAL cruisers who benefit when HAL reduces their prices after initial booking and before final payment date. Try this with an airline or land tour.

 

You seem to have the right attitude about enjoying your cruise. If I were in your shoes, I would double check pricing before I made final payment in case there has been a reduction. Neither a cruise line or most T/A's are going to tell you about potential savings so it's up to each of us to stay abreast or know we paid a fair price at the time we booked and in doing so, perhaps got the cabin and/or dining assignment we wanted, by booking sooner rather than later.

 

Put this and other people's issues behind you and have yourself a fabulous cruise.

OK...here's a reply from a very satisfied HAL cruiser! We always book directly with HAL...and I watch the rates prior to final payment. When I see a rate drop, I call HAL and they re-bill at the lower rate. Phone call takes about 1-2 minutes and it's all completed quickly and professionally. No problems. We're sailing in April 2007 and have already achieved one price adjustment.

 

Check in has never been anything but quick and smooth...on the ship no later than 11:30! Food...yes...just so-so...but I still manage on gaining a few pounds! And we love the passangers! Have made friends from all over the world! And our network keeps growing! Room Steward varies from good to great...but has never been a disappointment (and our additional tip corresponds with service provided). In short, HAL is something you can depend on, for consistency of quality service and experience.

 

sorry that some folks are disappointed...and do hope you give HAL another try. I wouldn't be too harsh on HAL about "drop-dead dates" on pricing...all cruise lines have a cut-off. And if the price goes down on our upcoming cruise, I'll get an adjustment if it's prior to the last payment because it's my job to monitor the pricing and ask for an adjustment, and if it's after...well...then I'm happy for the folks who got a really good deal and were able to cruise with us!

 

Meanwhile, I'm in the cabin I wanted and will be content.

[hammybee]

Sorry, my thoughts were interupted while typing...and I forgot an important issue. Once you've locked in your price by paying in full, you have only guaranteed your price....David

 

David,

 

Read the terms and conditions. From a legal standpoint there is no such thing as "locking in a price" with a cruise line. They have the ability to change your price up to the point of disembarkation. ( This is a strategy employed in some financial futures markets and cruising is very much a "futures" business).

We are on the same page as it relates to how it is we the passengers tend to be consistent beneficiaries when prices decline, I can see how a corporation could rationalize invoking the ability to correct a mistake. I think it bothers me more the way they did it, rather than that they did it. And in the long run, it ended up giving the industry another black eye on top of Noro, fires, lists and MIA passengers.

[jvermonttravel]

I'm sorry to have to add a negative comment here - but you are correct to "be on your guard." Yes, HAL and apparently anyone else in the travel industry (other cruise lines, airlines, hotels, etc.) can choose to not honor an advertised rate when they deem they have made an error. However, it has been well noted that almost everyone, other than HAL, has traditionally honored their errors, not made the customer accountable for them.

 

And, no, once paid in full you are still not protected. I was caught in the September Noordam pricing error. I had paid in full at the time of my reservation and received a booking number. I found out a week later that HAL was not going to honor my reservation at the booked (and paid in full) price. Subsequently I spoke with a HAL reservations supervisor, who said he would (in my particular case, fully aware of the pricing error situation) "protect" or guarantee my booking at the price I had paid and sent a copy of the confirmation showing paid in full, 0 balance due. A month later, I found out that HAL later canceled that booking number and assigned me a new booking number, now with a balance due! I have been fighting this for the last month and a half, getting no where.

 

So, HAL can and will change your rates even after you have paid in full and even when their own staff guarantees your rates.

[la_croisiere_s'amuse]

So, HAL can and will change your rates even after you have paid in full and even when their own staff guarantees your rates.

Yikes . . . that's not exactly the testimonial I was hoping for, but it does answer my question. Thanks. :)

 

Hammybee, I took your suggestion and read the terms and conditions. Sadly, you are dead on. So theoretically, any cruiseline can do to any passenger what HAL did to jvermonttravel and company. And who knows, maybe other cruiselines have done it and we just haven't heard about it.

 

Anyway . . . I guess the bottom line is that I still have to be on my guard. :(

[RevNeal]

jvermonttravel,

 

While HAL was within their technical rights in not honoring their pricing, I would nevertheless tend to classify their position and actions as being asinine. Yes, that's a hard word, but I intend it to be hard ... I find HAL's actions and attitude on this matter most disappointing and quite unbecoming of a company that prides itself on its "Signature of Excellence." This entire affair is a Signature, alright ... but not one of "Excellence." In the past I have asked if someone has been passing out "stupid pills" in Seattle ... now I'm no longer asking because I am convinced someone IS.

 

This being said, I would like to press you on one point. You wrote:

 

So, HAL can and will change your rates even after you have paid in full and even when their own staff guarantees your rates.

 

They can ... and, in your case, they did. But that doesn't mean that they will do so every time ... and certainly not in the OPs situation. The way you made your statement gives the impression that HAL absolutely will do so and, indeed, that this is something which they often do. This is simply not the case. Rate changes are rare, and this kind of incident is outstanding and so amazingly disappointing precisely in that it is not in character with the Line's historic practices. In my own experience, in over a dozen HAL bookings, I have NEVER had my rate changed in a manner disadvantageous to me. All changes that have occurred (on the rare occasion that such has happened) have been in my favor, never in HAL's favor. It is this precise fact that makes this case so perplexing and frustrating to many of us. Yes, HAL has had the ability to raise the prices if they wish. They usually don't do this because, legally, if they do they have to provide us with the recourse of canceling without penalty up to the very moment of boarding. Since they don't want THAT kind of fluctuation on their hands, they keep their prices fairly stable too and haven't generally charged us increases (even though they could). They DO usually honor their prices ... at least, they have in the past. And I don't see any reason to assume they're not going to continue to be fairly trustworthy on this score in the future ... your specific case notwithstanding.

[arzz]

I think that it is important here to distinguish between when a passenger has "paid in full" and the "date when final payment is due".

 

Passengers who paid in full before final due date during the Noordam fiasco were asked to pay the balance that HAL felt was due at final payment since their final payment date had not yet passed. To my knowledge no one, so far, has been asked for more money after they paid the NEW amounts that HAL requested due by final payment date after that final payment date had passed.

 

Whether passengers were only deposited, or had paid in full did not matter BEFORE final payment date. When HAL decided to ask passengers for the additional funds they asked everybody for additional funds. None of the affected trips had yet passed their final payment due date. It is my understanding that after final payment has been made, and the final payment date has passed, no one has been asked for more money.

 

I hope that I made my point as even I am confused when I read what I just wrote.

[dakrewser]

You can still cancel without penalty. And I'd strongly advise it, else you're worries will certainly ruin your vacation. There are plenty of other cruise lines and vacation venues - why cause yourself such anxiety?

[BumperII]

There are a number of things here that need to be emphasized. The first is that the Noordam fiasco is a rare, rare occurance, it can happen, but it isn't likely. When it does happen, HAL must offer the passenger the opportunity to back out and receive a full refund. If it was going to happen on your cruise, mostly likely you would have known about it by now. IMHO.HAL knows that the Noordam incident was a public relations mess, and they really don't want to repeat the experience anymre than we do.

While we were planning our Hawaii cruise, the price was bouncing up and down about three hundred dollars. When it went down three hundred, we booked the cheap seats. Then, a week after the final payment date, the price dropped four hunderd. We didn't expect a refund, but we called our TA who in turn called HAL, and we received a twelve category upgrade, they threw in a bathtub and an extra door! :D (That would be great, excecpt I'm not allowed out in the sun anyway.)

Long story short, the cruise was sold out in three weeks. Again, no surprise, HAL doesn't like to sail with empty cabins if they can help it.

When we booked the upcoming Panama Canal Cruise, we were watching the prices, and we booked our cheap seats the same day we saw that the suites had been sold out. (suites are usually the first to go on a hot selling cruise.) By then the MM Guarentee was also sold out, so we booked an L Guarentee. Sure enough, the Feb 2007 cruise was sold out in Aug 2006.

Our understanding of all this is that there is a price for locking in. If one wants to choose the cruise, the ship, the destination, the sailing date or the cabin, the price of doing business goes up. We are in a position to do that twice a year.

But we like to cruse six times a year, so for the other cruises, we don't care where or when. We just watch the prices on all North American Ports inside a ninety day ticker. If a "sweet spot" is going to occur, more often than not, it seems to happen after final payment day. To book a cruise after the scheduled final payment date, they want full payment within twenty-four hours. So far, there has always been some cruise on sale during the "shoulder seasons".

Let me close this by saying that I really understand the anxiety that followed the Noordam fiasco. There is no question that this was the public relations "DISASTER OF THE YEAR" for the cruise industry. But, please, please, don't allow that to become a tail that wags a dog. Cruising is a relaxing fun vacation with oppoortunities to meet interesting and wonderful people from all over the world.

BON VOYAGE!!!!:) :cool: :)

[SandyMc]

I think one of the things I have learned being a member of Cruise Critic is that ALL cruise lines have pretty serious faults when it comes to customer service. They all, by and large, do fine with the actual cruise experience but if you should need customer service you are probably out of luck. At best - it is hit or miss!

We have cruised HAL, RCI, Princess, NCL and Celebrity. The only time we needed or expected any customer service assistance was on Celebrity and it was absolutely non-existent! :mad: Totally indifferent and non-responsive to the passengers and this was from the President's office all the way down. So - I guess what I am trying to convey is that everyone loves their cruise line of choice - and should hope they never need customer service!

Why say you will go and enjoy your HAL cruise that you have already booked but will probably not cruise them again? If the trip goes fabulously (which I'm sure it will!) you will never need customer service! :D

[happy cruzer]

I liked the points that have been made.

 

To everyone worried about all the strange things that can happen with travel plans, remember to get the travel insurance ( the one that covers your main worries), remember if you book early alot of strange things can happen, ( one example is the ship can be chartered), and try to be as flexible as possible.

 

I'm tending toward booking at the last minute whenever possible and whenever the itenarary is not a hot one. I appreciate Bumper pointing out the shoulder season and the period after normal final payments.

 

Sandy, you were typing while I was. I agree that anytime you have a problem where you end up talking to customer service/diservice you are probably not going to be happy. DH and I avoid that area of the ship like the plague. Occasionally they do good but I just cringe from all the times nothing could be done.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[hammybee]

"All" is not quite right. Rick Steves guarantees the price of his tours. "Many tour companies (in their very fine print) reserve the right to tack extra fees onto your final payment to cover fuel or foreign currency expenses. We won't do that. The moment you make your deposit on a Rick Steves tour, your price is locked-in and guaranteed." http://tours.ricksteves.com/tours07/ten_commitments.cfm

 

Note that his guarantee is at the time of deposit. Any other tour/cruise/airline could offer the same guarantee.

 

Many land tour operators do this as do the airlines. But flip it for the downside. When it becomes necessary to discount a tour or flight to fill the seats, those who previously booked are SOL. Conversely, the opposite happens with cruising. There is no other business model quite like cruising. And yet, for the most part, those that love to cruise find a cruise line that makes them happy and they become a little obsessed with it.

[noblepa]

Before our Oosterdam cruise last April, I was worried about the then-rising price of fuel. I emailed HAL asking if I should pay in full to "lock in" my price. Their response was that it was their POLICY to honor the price quoted at the time of deposit and that they had no plans to tack on a fuel surcharge or any other fare increase. There were careful to point out that this policy did not include taxes, port charges or air fare, which they have no control over.

 

In any event, not only did they NOT increase our fare, even in the face of record-high fuel prices, when final payment came due, the amount was $300 LESS than I had originally been quoted.

 

Someone in this thread lamented the fact that we never hear, on this board, from people who have had their fare lowered. Well, now you have.

 

Put me down as one of those who recognizes that HAL was within their legal rights to correct a mistakenly quoted price, but that doing so, with no other compensation, was just plain stupid. They should have split the difference, offered some significant onboard credit or a hefty discount on a future cruise, or, best of all, just plain bitten the bullet and honored the mistaken price.

 

Paul Noble

[garydm]

Am I the only one who missed the "Noordam Pricing Fiasco?" Enlighten me please. Thanks.

 

Gary

[hammybee]

You can still cancel without penalty. And I'd strongly advise it, else you're worries will certainly ruin your vacation. There are plenty of other cruise lines and vacation venues - why cause yourself such anxiety?

 

You know, I thought about this response and maybe it is the right thing to do, in this instance. If the OP is convinced that he/she will not book a second cruise with HAL, there does not seem to be much that HAL is going to be able to do to overcome this bias.

 

The OP's uncertainty with HAL has a better than average opportunity to cloud the entire experience. It bothers me that a passenger feels the need to be determined to enjoy the cruise. So why bother? It's not the only cruise line/ship in the sea.

 

So often on these boards we hear from people who board with trepidation and it sometimes seems as if they board looking for validation of their low expectations and are rarely dissappointed. What can go wrong usually does, for these people. For most of us, our vacation time is so limited, so why follow through when seeds of doubt have already been planted and timing is in your favor. You can back out now and not incur a financial penalty.

 

A fresh start with another cruise line, operating a similar intinerary will probably be a better choice.

[noblepa]

Am I the only one who missed the "Noordam Pricing Fiasco?" Enlighten me please. Thanks.

 

Gary

 

A few months ago, HAL apparently made a serious mistake in the pricing that was given to TA's and posted on their website, for a particular cruise. The prices were incredibly low. Quite a few people booked at these prices.

 

When HAL discovered the mistake, they refused to honor the lowball prices, and insisted that passengers, some of whom had made what they thought was full payment, pony up an additional amount.

 

There were several threads, involving much wailing and gnashing of teeth, regarding HAL's legal and/or ethical right to do this. It turns out that they have a legal right to do it, but I believe the concensus here was that the best you can say for them is that they handled the situation very badly.

 

AFAIK, no compensation was offered in return for the addtional fare, such as on board credits or discounts on future cruises. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't remember anyone mentioning such compensation.

 

Paul Noble

[Randyk47]

Personally I'm not worried about HAL raising the price on my Veendam cruise next March but I can understand the concern based on HAL's recent performance with the Noordam pricing mess up. Up until recently I never gave it a thought and would have bet that HAL would never do such a thing. Why they decided not to "bite the bullet" on that situation I don't know but they didn't. I guess if I was so worried about the possibility that HAL, or any cruise line, was going to significantly raise my fare, even after final payment, I would probably bail out on the cruise. As it stands right now I'm staying put with my March plans though.

[hammybee]

A few months ago, HAL apparently made a serious mistake in the pricing that was given to TA's and posted on their website, for a particular cruise. The prices were incredibly low. Quite a few people booked at these prices.

 

When HAL discovered the mistake, they refused to honor the lowball prices, and insisted that passengers, some of whom had made what they thought was full payment, pony up an additional amount.

 

There were several threads, involving much wailing and gnashing of teeth, regarding HAL's legal and/or ethical right to do this. It turns out that they have a legal right to do it, but I believe the concensus here was that the best you can say for them is that they handled the situation very badly.

 

AFAIK, no compensation was offered in return for the addtional fare, such as on board credits or discounts on future cruises. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't remember anyone mentioning such compensation.

 

Paul Noble

 

Paul, I think HAL worked it out on a case by case basis. Some got OBC- thinking in the $100 range, I think to compensate for verifiable airline arrangements.

 

There is a sticky at the top of this board. Interestingly it appears that the management of CC is fanning this fire and now has included by link, reference to what appears to be another situation, this one a one-off. There is something not right about this. Anyone can come to this board and make claim that HAL pulled another fast one and somehow it gets top billing on CC. It seems irresponsible.

 

I think the Rev got it right, when he said the business decision appears asinine on HAL's part. Their silence makes it worse and puts a cloud of uncertainty on all pricing. Will any of this matter in the long run? The overwhelming number of cruisers have never heard of CC and so many do not distinguish between cruise lines until they have cruised several times on different lines.

 

I remain a HAL Pal but don't view them or any cruise line through rose colored glasses. It's a balance.

[BumperII]

You know, I thought about this response and maybe it is the right thing to do, in this instance... A fresh start with another cruise line, operating a similar intinerary will probably be a better choice.

 

Beautifully stated my friend. You really have a way with words.:)

[tomc]

It was a very limited (in time and scope) mess-up which some TA's did not report to their clients in a timely manner. The blame must be shared. The attitude has spread that this is SOP and that's just not right. If someone wants to cancel their second cruise because of something that did NOT happen on their first cruise ... bye bye.