Delayed flight equals missed cruise

[greatam]

As to this particular mishap: 20 minutes connection time is not a legal connection, since both passenger and baggage must get to the connecting flight.

 

I will post this again. This was a trip on two different airlines, which are NOT partners in any sense of the word. Therefore, it does not matter whether there is a 20 minute connection or even what is a legal connection, as there is no connection necessary. Both tickets were most likely booked by Princess as individual flights. Each flight would be considered an originating flight-hence no legal, illegal or any kind of connection required.

 

And just as a heads up-the Wichita airport is VERY small. 20 minutes would be more than enough time for a connection, IF the originating flight was on time into Wichita.

 

Either way, it is usually Princess's obligation to get you to the next port if you bought cruise/flight tickets from them, and you may have been given incorrect information from Princess's customer service.

 

The OP was given the chance to board the cruise in the next port and Princess was willing to make the arrangements. However, the OP did not have a passport. You cannot leave the US on an international flight with just a birth certificate anymore.

 

As I posted before, the next port the cruise line can get you to may be 1/2 way through your cruise (or not at all, in the case of a transatlantic). There may be no refunds or compensation available without travel insurance. And reading the fine print in the cruise contract two things stand out-cruise air is booked as a "convenience" and the cruise line will make "every effort". Key phrases and no guarantees.

[Perl47]

Since you have four flights on four different airlines, please take the time to look at all your airlines and print out all the schedules that may work for you if there is an "oops".

 

Or if you want some help, post your itinerary and airlines and I will take a look at it for you. I do international logistics planning for a living-moving people and freight all over the world via air, surface and sea. I have a couple of databases that are not available to the general public and can often see just how fully loaded the planes are, so you can plan ahead.

 

And hopefully, with a little advance planning, your trip will go off without a hitch.

 

Thank you SO MUCH -- and yes, please, I'd love your input and advice. I've spent the last few hours checking flights and thought maybe I'd try the air deviation but there's nothing available coming back on June 2. Although, if we could cancel the Princess Air and book our own, we'd consider coming in a day early and staying an extra day in Vancouver on the return. The fares have dropped by half since I checked prior to booking Princess Air but I have a sneaking feeling it wouldn't be permitted at this late date.

 

21 May -

NW fl# 2865, (operated by Northwest Airlink) depart CLE 6:50 AM, arr MPLS 8:08 AM;

NW fl# 171, depart MPLS 9:00 AM, arr SEA 10:46 AM;

Alaska Airline fl #1, depart SEA 12:00 PM, arr FAI 4:23 PM.

 

02 Jun -

Alaska Airline fl# 2025 (operated by Horizon Air), depart YVR 6:30 PM, arr SEA 7:30 PM;

Continental fl # 1860, depart SEA 11:15 PM, arr CLE (03 Jun) 6:29 AM

 

And now that I review it, I can see I miscalculated the time changes so our travel days won't be quite as long as I thought, although still plenty brutal for an 87 yr. old. I haven't been able to figure out for sure how far we have to go to make our connections but even knowing that ahead of time would be helpful.

 

And I will definitely print it all out and have a Plan B. My DH used to have a book that had all flight schedules and never traveled without it. Now I can see why.

 

Thanks again -- I really appreciate your input.

 

Josie

[Buddy604]

And just as a heads up-the Wichita airport is VERY small. 20 minutes would be more than enough time for a connection, IF the originating flight was on time into Wichita.

I don't know Wichita personally, but Greatam make a good and often overlooked point: legal connection is defined in part by the airport within which one makes a connection. I used to fly in and out of Regina, Saskatchewan and 20 minutes there with only three gates and them all side by side would almost be overkill.

 

In the old days, I always used 30 minutes at the default minimum value when planning connections (and I'm talking late 80s - early 90s), but now it really does depend on the airport. I wouldn't take less than 50 minutes on any large busy hub, and add at least an extra 45 if you have to clear customs. Remember too, though that scheduled arrival time for your first flight also often has some take off delay and a little wiggle room built in allowing the pilot's to make up time in the air (unless you're on the Concorde which already goes full throttle :D). It's the difference between actualy flying time and what pilots call gate-to-gate.

 

Back on topic, though, I always thought the only benefit to cruise air was the guarantee that they'd get you to the ship somehow. If that only applies if you have insurance and there wasn't a mechanical problem, and it's an alternate thursday following a full moon, I don't see any value in buying cruise air for most cruises. :confused: Open Jaws, I guess, maybe. If you got them, though, points are best for those.

[Buddy604]

My DH used to have a book that had all flight schedules and never traveled without it. Now I can see why.

Ah, fondly remembering my old OAG. Used to pick up a new copy every couple of months. I wonder if they still publish it?

[gambit57]

Back on topic, though, I always thought the only benefit to cruise air was the guarantee that they'd get you to the ship somehow. If that only applies if you have insurance and there wasn't a mechanical problem, and it's an alternate thursday following a full moon, I don't see any value in buying cruise air for most cruises. :confused: Open Jaws, I guess, maybe. If you got them, though, points are best for those.

 

Yeah, I'm starting to get confused. If that's the case, I can't understand why anyone would book cruise air. Especially if you book your own flights and pay that deviation fee. I've always booked my own flights, paid less than what Princess was charging ($200/pp less on upcoming cruise) and don't even have to pay that deviation fee. I'm risking it by flying same day, but since I picked, I chose non stop flights which should leave me plenty of time and less chance of anything going wrong.

[CruisenOne]

Ah, fondly remembering my old OAG. Used to pick up a new copy every couple of months. I wonder if they still publish it?

 

No, no longer available; along with Flight Schedules at Air Line Counters.

I subscribed to the condensed version and could put it in my coat pocket.

Every thing is on the computer now.

[spongerob]

Ah, fondly remembering my old OAG. Used to pick up a new copy every couple of months. I wonder if they still publish it?

A perk of Platinum AMEX is that you get SkyGuide, which list all flights in the US plus several major international airports. There is also an on-line version, eSkyGuide that has some handy features.

 

With so many resources available on the internet, I think most people should be able to manage making their own flight arrangements - at least for flights within the US. It's almost fun if you consider it part of your pre-vacation anticipation.

[dakodacruiser]

The one time that we went with cruise air, coincidentily it was with Princess, my TA didn't know when our flight was four weeks prior to departure and I called Princess, They gave me the carrier and flight times. This put My husband at ease since he was starting to worry about connecting flight problems. I wasn't happy with the arrangements and called the carrier directly (AA) and was able to change my flights to a more appropriate time with one less connection. After that I got rid of my TA.

[bjkTX]

My heart breaks just thinking about this. Since the OP didn't actually say they didn't have insurance, just that they felt Princess should do something regardless of insurance, I hope they did! I worry before every cruise when we have to fly someplace, even if we have what looks like loads of extra time. I (used to) fly a lot, and I know better than to accept a 20 minute layover between flights anytime - you can't even book one with an airline with less than a 45 minute layover (normally). Throw in full flights because of Spring Break and options get less and less. I hope something good happens for the OP!!

[greatam]

Yeah, I'm starting to get confused. If that's the case, I can't understand why anyone would book cruise air. Especially if you book your own flights and pay that deviation fee. I've always booked my own flights, paid less than what Princess was charging ($200/pp less on upcoming cruise) and don't even have to pay that deviation fee. I'm risking it by flying same day, but since I picked, I chose non stop flights which should leave me plenty of time and less chance of anything going wrong.

 

Let me just clarify a couple things. Cruise air/air deviation and how it works behind the scenes was explained to me by an airline industry rep at an industry conference four years ago. For the example, she used LAX/MIA, both cruise air and air deviation. She was also an AA rep, so the following reflect AA routings. I thought the analogy was great and easy to understand:

 

Imagine you have 4 stacks of cards in front of you, each containing 30 cards. The 30 cards represent the allotment the cruise line bought from the airline at consolidator rates.

 

Stack one is LAX/MIA nonstop. 27 request air deviation-nonstop to MIA. Stack one is now down to 3 cards and the 27 pax paid the same price as "regular" cruise air (where you don't know what you are getting until 30-60 days out).

 

Stack two is LAX/DFW/MIA. Again, 27 people request deviation, same scenario. Pax accept one stopper at their choice of times.

 

Stack three is LAX/ORD/MIA. Again 27 people request deviation-ditto

 

Stack four contains these tickets-LAX/SEA, LAX/ORD, LAX/DFW, LAX/JFK, ORD/JFK, ORD/MIA, JFK/MIA

 

20 additional pax request air deviation-want LAX/MIA nonstop

 

3 people get air deviation at the same price as cruise air, 17 have to be booked on "free call" tickets. These are NOT the same as the original 30 tickets. They are generally booked in Q or O class (the lowest, generally available AA class) IF there are tickets available in those classes. If there are no tickets available to the cruise line in those classes, then AA will make available tickets in higher fare classes. Please note that Q and O class tickets are HIGHER priced than the "regular" consolidator class air deviation tickets, so the 17 pax will definitely pay a higher price than "regular" cruise air pax or deviation pax with consolidator class tickets.

 

IF and this is a BIG IF, the cruise line/airline contract ALLOWS the cruise line to purchase more nonstop tickets, these are FULLY ENDORSABLE tickets, the same as purchasing direct from AA. Depending on time of year and demand, you may be told there are NO air deviation tickets available.

 

What does the example tell us: Quite a few of the air deviation pax are booked on consolidator class fares. These are group rates given under contract from the airline to the cruise line. The airline states "you will pay us $200.00 per ticket. We don't care what you sell it for". That is how ALL consolidator tickets work. However, there are some VERY stringent restrictions on these types of tickets. USUALLY-very large change fees, if a change is allowed at all, and NON ENDORSABLE tickets (they have no value to another airline).

 

So most of the pax who requested air deviation are still using consolidator class tickets. If there is a problem, depending on the goodwill of the airline/cruise line, you may or may not (most likely) be put on another carrier to reach your destination.

 

To be placed on another carrier with a consolidator ticket, the originating carrier has to pay the flying carrier IN CASH-there is no tit for tat exchanging seats, as is common with endorsable tickets. With most airlines in financial trouble, most likely the airline will NOT pay for a ticket on another carrier. And Southwest, AirTran and JetBlue for the most part DO NOT participate in tit for tat exchanges with any carrier, but you will not find cruise lines buying those tickets.

 

The few lucky people who paid extra have fully endorsable tickets, good on any airline the originating carrier has agreements with and seats available. But they paid EXTRA. They could have booked their own seats and saved money.

 

What happens to the "regular" cruise air pax? See the remnants of piles 3 and 4? See pile 4???

 

That is what is left. So somehow, the cruise line has to get those pax from LAX to Miami. Six lucky people will get a one stopper, either ORD or DFW. The rest-Take a combination of cards-lets say LAX/SEA/ORD/JFK/MIA. The cruise line has now fulfilled their obligation to get you to the ship. And because the cruise line does not put the flights together until AFTER final payment, regular cruise air pax are left with PILE 4.

 

It does not matter that it will take you 12 hours to get to the cruise and you had to leave home at 2:00AM to arrive in MIA at 4:00PM for a cruise that departs at 6:00PM. OOOPS!!! Just missed the connection at ORD. If things weren't bad enough already, you just missed your cruise. Hope the next port stop is within a day and has seats available.

 

This was very hard to write down. It is much easier to tell it in person. Hope it made sense and clarified some issues!!!

[Pam in CA]

greatam, thank you for a terrific explanation of cruiseline and consolidator airfare and scheduling. Very clear.

[Buddy604]

This was very hard to write down. It is much easier to tell it in person. Hope it made sense and clarified some issues!!!

Wow. Thanks, that was very clear and enlightening.

[greatam]

Thank you SO MUCH -- and yes, please, I'd love your input and advice. I've spent the last few hours checking flights and thought maybe I'd try the air deviation but there's nothing available coming back on June 2. Although, if we could cancel the Princess Air and book our own, we'd consider coming in a day early and staying an extra day in Vancouver on the return. The fares have dropped by half since I checked prior to booking Princess Air but I have a sneaking feeling it wouldn't be permitted at this late date.

 

21 May -

NW fl# 2865, (operated by Northwest Airlink) depart CLE 6:50 AM, arr MPLS 8:08 AM;

NW fl# 171, depart MPLS 9:00 AM, arr SEA 10:46 AM;

Alaska Airline fl #1, depart SEA 12:00 PM, arr FAI 4:23 PM.

 

02 Jun -

Alaska Airline fl# 2025 (operated by Horizon Air), depart YVR 6:30 PM, arr SEA 7:30 PM;

Continental fl # 1860, depart SEA 11:15 PM, arr CLE (03 Jun) 6:29 AM

 

And now that I review it, I can see I miscalculated the time changes so our travel days won't be quite as long as I thought, although still plenty brutal for an 87 yr. old. I haven't been able to figure out for sure how far we have to go to make our connections but even knowing that ahead of time would be helpful.

 

And I will definitely print it all out and have a Plan B. My DH used to have a book that had all flight schedules and never traveled without it. Now I can see why.

 

Thanks again -- I really appreciate your input.

 

Josie

 

I am going to assume that you make the first fight out of CLE. Any problems will occur getting out of MSP or into SEA. By the way, according to NWA schedule, your original flight, #171 is now leaving at 9:20, arriving 10:58. Please take note-gives you a few extra minutes to get organized.

 

Alternate flights which will work:

 

MSP/SEA

 

9:40AM-flight 165-arrives SEA 11:16-nonstop

 

11:45AM-flight 805-arrives SEA 1:20PM-nonstop

 

If for some reason, you original flight is full and you are bumped, there is one flights leaving within 5 minutes of the original which will get you to SEA.

 

9:25-flight 217 through Portland. Change to flight 2400, arrive SEA at 1:25

 

From SEA to FAI

 

Three flights leave after your 12:00PM flight

 

195-12:30PM

163-1:50PM

187-2:45PM

 

All connect to AS 127 though Anchorage-arrive Fairbanks at 7:10PM

 

I didn't look on the return. You're not really in a hurry to get home, are ya!!!!

[NancyIL]

greatam - terrific explanation of how cruise air works -thanks!

[spongerob]

Thanks Greatam...if I ever had any residual confidence in the cruise/air system, it's gone now. :) Fortunately we learned our lesson when planning for our second cruise.

[gambit57]

Thanks greatam! Very helpful!

 

Now, I really can't see any reason to book cruise air. I'm not a gambler.

[Upandadam]

Wow, I feel so bad for the OP. We just MADE our connecting flight a little over a week ago with less than 5 minutes to spare after a mechanical problem delaying our initial departure. The whole cruise and $8,000 was on the line.

 

Even though we've been lucky so far, this was too close. Last time we ever book the same day, especially during a busy period like spring break. And we'll never book through the cruise line after reading this thread.

[sandysav]

If you go to the Carnival site you will see that carnival refunded and gave a free 3 day cruise to some people who missed their cruise due to a airport to bus connection. Not the same scenario but yeah to carnival once again!

[sandysav]

Didnt mean the carnival website, meant the carnival board on this site.:o

[iancal]

So let me get this straight.....Princess, and others. buy consolidator tickets at fire sale prices and pass them on to 'lucky' passengers at a price, according to what we have always been quoted, double to what the normal bunny could buy an airline ticket on the street. And after paying double, those luckless folks may end up with a non endorseable ticket and a routing from hell. Great.

[fti]

And I will definitely print it all out and have a Plan B. My DH used to have a book that had all flight schedules and never traveled without it. Now I can see why.

Josie

 

Be sure to not do your printout of alternate flights until a few days before your departure - as you can see your original flight times have already changed.

 

Also, it would be very wise to call the airlines in question 1-2 days before departure to reconfirm your flights/flight numbers/times. This is not "required" by the airline but is required of anyone wanting to have due diligence when traveling. I know someone who was told when showing up at the airport that his flight was not operating that day. Not a pleasant surprise to have at the airport.

 

Another tip - for your early flight on May 21, you can call NW or look on their website about midnight the night before. The first flight of a day is a flight that arrived late the night before. If that flight the night before arrived really late for some reason, and is using the same flight crew as your flight, the flight will be automically delayed due to mandatory "crew rest" rules. So it wouldn't hurt to check your departure time late the night before.

 

John

[spongerob]

So let me get this straight.....Princess, and others. buy consolidator tickets at fire sale prices and pass them on to 'lucky' passengers at a price, according to what we have always been quoted, double to what the normal bunny could buy an airline ticket on the street. And after paying double, those luckless folks may end up with a non endorseable ticket and a routing from hell. Great.

In a nutshell, yes. There are a few exceptions, I believe, such as the charter flights Princess arranges from LA to Papeete. Caveat emptor.

[Oregon81]

I always fly Southwest and never have these problems! SW never changes flight times and have one of the highest on time percentages. SW doesn't go to all cities, but they go to most. If you watch the sales you can fly anywhere on their system any time of the year for $200 roundtrip.

 

We always book our own air and fly same day. SW is great because many of their flights are direct or have a stop but you don't have to get off. I leave at least 1-2 hours for connections and arrive at least 3-4 hours prior to ship sailing.

 

Obviously if you live somewhere with lots of snow, no airline will get you to the ship on time in a blizzard. But, if you live somewhere with a decent climate flying same day is NO PROBLEM!

 

Flying domestic on any of the "legacy" airlines is simply asking for trouble.

[br_luv2travl]

I have spent the last couple of hours reading through this thread - very interesting. I considered myself to be travel savvy, but this thread has opened my eyes - there is always space for learning. I have family in Buenos Aires, and so have been flying there annually for the last 5 years with my DH.

 

DH & I have missed a connecting flight even when we booked with at least 2 hours layover: the reason: our flight was delayed in MIA d/t weather in ATL. We arrived in ATL at the time that our flight was leaving for Buenos Aires. We asked for them to hold the plane, but were told that that could not be done (how often has my plane been held for connecting flights). We found about a dozen fellow passengers who had also missed their connections - the downside is that Delta has only one flight a day to Buenos Aires.

 

We have booked with Princess Air, but then Part A was a charter (FLL-Manaus) and returning Rome to DTW, and we figured that their price was the best, I had done my computer research and could not get anything half decent. Manaus is in the Brazilian Amazon and is a difficult airport to get one way flights to (routed via Rio or Sao Paolo).

 

November 2008, we are cruising Venice to Manaus - even before reading this thread, my DH & I will be spending a couple of days in Venice prior to cruising and a day post cruise (overnighting on the cruise ship does not cut it from the experience above when you are on the second charter which arrives late in the day and takes you over 2 hours to get to the cruise ship; the next day, we had 2 tours and by the time the first one returned late, we had splitting headaches and raced through the second tour). I am going tohave to be very savvy with Princess on this one: my base airline will have to be Buenos Aires instead of DTW or YYZ (our favourite airport)

 

I got off the Golden last month and heard that a small group did not make the ship in Valparaiso (to BA) due to mechanical failure of their plane - the luggage door I cannot remember if they had a connection though I believe that they were from Florida and snow was not an issue. A handful went home and kissed the cruise goodbye - they must have had some kind of insurance.

 

 

PS what does IMHO mean?? I have seen it often ... there was another one LMAO, but I think I have finally figured it out.

[bjkTX]

In my humble opinion. Laughing my a.. off :-)