Should HAL try to be all things to all people

[Sea King]

Should, or perhaps more importantly, can HAL be all things to all people?

 

For more than 130 years, HAL established itself as an industry leader not by following the trends but by setting its own standards for others to follow.

 

It seems, for whatever reason, that Seattle now thinks it's better to fall into line rather than to set the pace.

 

A perfect example: free style dining.

 

Is that necessary or is trying to compete with Norwegian more important than being recognized as the cruise line that values traditional dining each evening.

 

What's so terrible about being distinctive rather than being just another "mass product" where 1 ship is the same as another but for the interior design.

 

Can HAL be all things to all people and if so, will mediocrity replace excellence.

 

Maybe it's time everyone let Seattle know exactly how they feel.

 

If I want wall climbing, RCCL is the choice; dancing waiters, Carnival is the one; European wait staff, try Celebrity or Princess; strict class system, look to Cunard.

 

Why can't HAL keep its own values and let others try to copy it instead of what appears to be just the opposite.

[HAL92]

Very well said. I don't support the freestyle dining.....and other things they are trying to do so they can appeal to the people who like Carnival, RCCL, Norwegian, etc. (the mainstream "mediocre" cruise lines). HAL needs to set the pace and be unique...that's what draws me to them in the first place. If anything, I'd rather see them become more like Cunard than any of those other lines you mentioned, but still, I'd rather them just stay Holland America rather than try to be like another cruise line.

[DFD1]

Seems to me HAL's current leadership lacks vision.

 

The hardware (ships, staterooms, etc.) seems to be fine, but policywise, the company seems somehow adrift. Customer service, especially, seems to be suffering.

 

Hope it's shortlived.

[O2B@C]

You have a very good point. I believe branding and marketing are most successful when a company focuses on its own distinct strengths, rather than copying its competitors.

 

I encourage you, and everyone who agrees with this point (especially HAL veterans) to write to Mr. Kruse. Old-fashioned snail mail, brief and to the point. The more people who express this view, the better.

[jhannah]

Sea King, I have been saying this for a long time. So my answer is an unequivocal, "NO!" Holland America should be faithful to its brand -- build on that -- and not attempt to be ATTAP. (Can't really achieve that anyway, IMO.)

[CruiseBumm]

SeaKing, I too agree strongly "NO" When companies start to provide all services to all customers, than those service all fall in quality. There is nothing wrong with maintaining traditions for a portion of Carnevals fleet. All ships do not need to be the same.

[bepsf]

Seems to me HAL's current leadership lacks vision.

 

The hardware (ships, staterooms, etc.) seems to be fine, but policywise, the company seems somehow adrift. Customer service, especially, seems to be suffering.

 

Hope it's shortlived.

 

This is what I've been saying for months.

IMO, it's down to a serious lack of capable leadership causing this mess that HAL is creating for itself - I hope Micky A comes to realize this and makes the necessary changes soon...

[cruiserking]

I absolutely agree with you Sea King. HAL should continue to uphold the traditional style it has featured for the last century. We frequently sail with Cunard and were happy to give HAL a shot because they are one of the more elegant and traditional lines still around.

 

It's all about marketing really. They should be pushing their traditional, elegant brand not fighting it by adopting As You Wish Dining. I hope this thread generates a horde of posts and we can send Mr. Kruse a link. Perhaps then he'll realize that What We Wish is to leave HAL the way it is.

 

Jonathan

[hammybee]

No cruise line can be all things to all passengers and I do not know of any who try. Had there been technology to support a CC message board way back when, I imagine that passengers would have had a lot to say about:

 

The onboard conditions in steerage comprising the majority of passengers, immigrants from Europe to the U.S. and,

 

The mass sell-off of HAL ships for scrap and a 34% reduction in staff during the 30's, and

 

HAL's new builds, the economy twins in the 50's, giving tourist class the run of the ship, and

 

Introduction of first LIDO cafeteria style dining concept in the 60's, and

 

Ceasing transatlantic crossings because they were unprofitable in the 70's, and

 

Replacing experienced Room Stewards with less costly Indonesians who could barely speak English in the 70's and,

 

Teetering on the verge of bankruptcy in the late 80's.

 

It sounds to me like HAL has a long history of going with the times and balancing what consumers will pay for with the need to give their shareholders a decent return on their investment.

[sail7seas]

We love the beautiful ships, the art, the flowers, the elegant decorating, the continuance of its fine history, the sincere and genuine fine service we always experience...the traditions HAL's long history has betowed on the company. Other lines do not have this extensive, noteworthy history.

 

While the crews on other lines are accomodating and for the most part adequate, they don't compare to HAL's in MY experience. The tradition of HAL's crews is integral to what the company is. Other lines do not all have the crews like HAL's IMO

 

VERY important in this scene is traditional dining. It is one of the top five things we absolutely require in order to fully enjoy our HAL cruises. Someone here in another thread stated careful research has showed positive feedback about AYW dining......is that supposed to mean we are all obliged to cede to it? Fine if others love it. We do not. Other lines offer it. Fine. HAL does not have to force it upon those of us who vehemently resist. In fairness and honesty.... to date, DH and I have had the identical dining to what we have always had. We sincerely hope that continues but don't feel terribly secure about it.

 

I don't like the idea of AYW dining but can live with it IF IF IF they are faithful to what we have been told.......that ALL people who want traditional dining will be assigned to it. If other people wish to have AYW dining, great.......as long as those of us who do not, will not have it forced on us. DH and I would be very, very unhappy. VERY Unhappy. Did I mention we would not be happy? Call it Major disappointment for US.

 

 

I love that Princess offers the dining style they do but it doesn't interest me to partake of it. I love that those who like it can book and enjoy it on Princess. Same for RCI. We don't need ice rinks and rock walls on all cruise lines. One is enough. That is a quite large enough company certainly with big enough ships to accomodate all those who want that style cruise. Hope they have the greatest time ever......there. On their rock walls.

 

Same for Princess and Carnival etc.

 

 

I am not adverse to any and all change. I am adverse to change that is being made to make HAL more like 'the rest'. HAL doesn't need to be like the rest. HAL has led the industry in many areas for many years. Rather than homogenizing cruising, I hope HAL continues to lead the way. Who created the Lido concept? Of course, the others copied it. It's perfect for ships. That is what HAL is capable of creating. Why mimic others when a great company like HAL can begin the traditions for tomorrow. There are many very talented, energetic, motivated people in this great company. Let them 'create'. :)

 

 

HAL is the one for those of us who want the style HAL is so well known for. In My mind...... better than the rest in its category. I think HAL better than "X". I sailed them about 5 times and have no wish to ever sail them again. Same for Princess. HAL has the style, the polish, the features I want. IMO (If someone doesn't agree, that's great. That's your privilege.)

 

The other lines aren't bad; but they are different than what I want.

 

I want the Filipino, Indonesian crews of HAL. I want teak decks in place of fake grass carpet. I want the beautiful fresh flowers. I want the same dining table and dining stewards at the same time every night. I want The Goodbye Song; Love in Any Language. I want the canvas tote bag and Mariners Tile. I certainly want the Mariners Party.

 

I want HAL quite the way HAL is and has been. Generations of us brought HAL to this party of success today. Let us continue to dance at that party. Please???!!! :)

 

Make profits......Make big profits. I have nothing against black ink as long as they continue to provide the cruise we all think/hope we are buying. If we wanted to buy the cruise some other line is selling, we'd be sailing on that line. In the end, the more HAL fashions itself in the style of other lines, why would those who exclusively sail HAL continue to do so if they start to be like everyone else? We know we pay more for our cruises sometimes but we agree to do that because in our mind, only HAL can give us the cruise we want.

 

If the prices have to raise moderately to continue to make the profits, make the required increases. A great many of us will grumble but we'll pay a fair increase as long as we continue to 'get our money's worth'.

 

 

*** I know I have a target on my back. That's okay. This post is my opinion. It is no more (nor less) important than anyone else's. As long as I am not breaking the rules of this board, I am entitled to express it. Don't bother telling me everything wrong with my thinking.

 

If you differ, post your own opinions. It isn't necessary to rip mine apart.

Thank you in advance for the courtesy.

 

 

 

[bepsf]

*** I know I have a target on my back. That's okay. This post is my opinion. It is no more (nor less) important than anyone else's. As long as I am not breaking the rules of this board, I am entitled to express it. Don't bother telling me everything wrong with my thinking.

 

If you differ, post your own opinions. It isn't necessary to rip mine apart.

Thank you in advance for the courtesy.

 

If you have a target on your back, so do I since I feel exactly the same...

[sail7seas]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Brian. I can promise you I'm not aiming!! :)

[kryos]

I don't like the idea of AYW dining but can live with it IF IF IF they are faithful to what we have been told.......that ALL people who want traditional dining will be assigned to it. If other people wish to have AYW dining, great.......as long as those of us who do not, will not have it forced on us. DH and I would be very, very unhappy. VERY Unhappy. Did I mention we would not be happy? Call it Major disappointment for US.

Sadly, I can't see how HAL could ever guarantee everyone that they would always get their dining choice. It just can't be done. What if there is a large group onboard a sailing that must all dine together? Obviously that's gonna take the full capacity of the one traditional dining room and other people will get shuttled off to AYW. What if a couple books late and traditional is full? Obviously they are gonna get relegated to AYW, whether they like it or not. Now, of course, they may be able to swing back into traditional once onboard ... but that certainly wouldn't be guaranteed.

 

I don't know what the solution is. I'd like to believe that HAL will always offer a choice and would always do whatever they could to ensure all passengers were accommodated. But my fear is that as more and more "new style" cruisers opt for AYW or flexible dining options, eventually HAL is gonna find very, very few passengers asking for traditional and they very well may do away with it. Let's face it ... us "traditionalists" will die off or stop cruising at some point.

 

It's just like the newspaper industry I work in. For years my company was a fat cat ... we got nice raises, great working conditions and benefits ... you name it. When I went to work for my company close to 30 years ago, everyone asked me "who did you sleep with to get in there?" ... the company was that well known ... and getting jobs there was not considered easy ... but if you did nail one ... you were considered "set for life." Well, things changed, sadly. Newspapers are a dying industry. Years have passed and the cat is not all that fat anymore. Raises have gotten tiny, if non-existent. Benefits have been scaled back. It's not that great a place to work anymore. Why? Because our customer segment is changing ... except for the older folks, most young ones are not reading the newspaper anymore. They're getting their news online. So, the newspaper industry has to make plans to cater to this new breed of customer by bulking up their online division and scaling back the more traditional print division. Our CEO clearly stated in an interview a month or so back that he doesn't envision publication of hard copy newspapers ten years from now. Everything will probably be online.

 

It's the same with the cruise industry. It's changing. Younger people are discovering cruises and since the prices have come way down, those younger people are now able to afford them. These younger people don't demand the same things we do. They want flexible dining so that they can have all the time they need to get the kids ready ... without having to make them wait until 8:15 or 8:30 to eat. They want a more casual laid-back atmosphere onboard ... and the list goes on and on.

 

I'd like to think that someone with half a brain is making these policy changes at HAL ... and at other cruise lines. I can't imagine anyone would just add these sweeping changes such as AYW dining without having loads and loads of customer data to back up the demand for it. I say that the demand is there ... just as the demand is there for more smoke-free areas. The cruise lines are just responding to that demand.

 

So, Sail ... I hate to say it ... but no, I can't imagine you can be 100% guaranteed to always get into traditional dining ... because there may one day be no traditional dining anymore. But, you certainly have the odds with you if you book suites ... but then still ... no guarantees.

 

The cruise industry is changing ... whether some of us like those changes or not. As always, the majority will rule ... and the rest of us will either go along or find other vacation alternatives.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[bUU]

Be careful -- not wanting HAL to be "all things to all people" may result in it being not what you want. I think everyone has their own image of what they want to be offered, by any supplier they do business with, and it is natural to feel that we're not always getting what we want because the supplier is trying to appeal to those people. However, just think of it the other way: Anything you do get that is how you want it could very well be not the way other people want it, and in that case, to them, you are the problem! :)

 

Lots of people like the new dining arrangements that cruise lines are introducing. Just because another cruise line did it first doesn't mean HAL should continue to disappoint their guests who want that option. It doesn't make sense to sub-optimize like that. We call it Not-Invented-Here syndrome, and it is generally considered a bad thing! Ideally, you innovate when you can, and catch-up when you fail to be the innovator -- you don't deliberately leave yourself behind because you missed the leading edge.

 

Of course, if you don't like the new dining arrangements, it will be more difficult for you to see these changes as a good change for anyone. It's a bit like someone who doesn't like sushi not acknowledging the enhancement that adding sushi represents to people who do like sushi. The cruise line, though, doesn't have the luxury of falling back on the personal preferences of its managers: They have to integrate the preferences of all their target customers.

 

And that may be part of the issue: We each want to be our suppliers' only (or at least principal) target customers. That sure is nice when it happens, but it is unrealistic to expect that a profit-making company will be able to put all of the folks who want to be their target customers in that category. So some folks are always going to be less important than others.

[fcorey]

I don't like the idea of AYW dining but can live with it IF IF IF they are faithful to what we have been told.......that ALL people who want traditional dining will be assigned to it. If other people wish to have AYW dining' date=' great.......as long as those of us who do not, will not have it forced on us. [/b']

 

Sail that was a great post and I enjoyed reading it. The paragraph I quoted sums up the problem with AYW for many who want traditional (myself included). We don't mind that its being offered, we just don't want to be forced to take it if its not our choice. Implementation of this is going to be a real test of HAL management. If they can pull it off they way you suggest, then kudos to them. If it turns into a mess as some fear then.....

 

In the past Brian has hit this on the head perfectly, HAL management in a quest to lure new cruisers seems to be trying anything and everything and in doing so lessens their brand, and really reduces themselves to mass market. It is more difficult for them to lure families and younger cruisers based on the base amenities of the ships. Things they can control like itineraries, policies and pricing are whats left. Right now the only place where they are competing aggressively is price and in long term that may not work out well, its a matter of simple economics. In the short term they will get more cruisers but I think they may lose the high repeat rate they have.

 

I'm not averse to change, but things like the ships themselves, the art,flowers, service and most importantly the crew are key features that define them, and their brand. I'd be sorry to see those things change, but ultimately thats beyond our control until we speak with our wallet.

[bUU]

No cruise line can be all things to all passengers and I do not know of any who try. Had there been technology to support a CC message board way back when, I imagine that passengers would have had a lot to say about:

 

<lots of nifty examples>

 

It sounds to me like HAL has a long history of going with the times and balancing what consumers will pay for with the need to give their shareholders a decent return on their investment.

Really good points. And interesting that many of the the things many passengers now take as traditional parts of the offering were really new changes, and not necessarily the innovation or at least sole providence of any one cruise line.

[hammybee]

Be careful -- not wanting HAL to be "all things to all people" may result in it being not what you want. I think everyone has their own image of what they want to be offered, by any supplier they do business with, and it is natural to feel that we're not always getting what we want because the supplier is trying to appeal to those people. However, just think of it the other way: Anything you do get that is how you want it could very well be not the way other people want it, and in that case, to them, you are the problem! :)

 

Lots of people like the new dining arrangements that cruise lines are introducing. Just because another cruise line did it first doesn't mean HAL should continue to disappoint their guests who want that option. It doesn't make sense to sub-optimize like that. We call it Not-Invented-Here syndrome, and it is generally considered a bad thing! Ideally, you innovate when you can, and catch-up when you fail to be the innovator -- you don't deliberately leave yourself behind because you missed the leading edge.

 

Of course, if you don't like the new dining arrangements, it will be more difficult for you to see these changes as a good change for anyone. It's a bit like someone who doesn't like sushi not acknowledging the enhancement that adding sushi represents to people who do like sushi. The cruise line, though, doesn't have the luxury of falling back on the personal preferences of its managers: They have to integrate the preferences of all their target customers.

 

And that may be part of the issue: We each want to be our suppliers' only (or at least principal) target customers. That sure is nice when it happens, but it is unrealistic to expect that a profit-making company will be able to put all of the folks who want to be their target customers in that category. So some folks are always going to be less important than others.

 

This is a well thought out and balanced perspective. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[hammybee]

Really good points. And interesting that many of the the things many passengers now take as traditional parts of the offering were really new changes, and not necessarily the innovation or at least sole providence of any one cruise line.

 

Imagine what people first thought of the LIDO concept, when introduced. Oh my stars, first they allowed Tourist Class the run of the ship, then they ceased their transatlantic sails and now the meals will be cafeteria style or worse, two seatings, early and late, too early and too darn late.......cruising is a fasinating business model.

[kryos]

VERY important in this scene is traditional dining. It is one of the top five things we absolutely require in order to fully enjoy our HAL cruises.

Can I ask you a question? And, please believe me ... I am not being argumentive here ... I just really want to know.

 

What's the difference for you and your DH between traditional or AYW? From what I understand, you can book the same table for the same time every night in AYW. Since you book suites, you'd have priority for your desired table/time, etc. So where would it honestly matter whether you were in AYW dining or traditional? In effect, you'd have the same set-up ... your table, your waitstaff, your table companions. I don't understand where AYW would be that big a deal for you.

 

I only see the single getting screwed with AYW ... but then ... let's face it ... the single is a very, very small majority of most of HAL's cruisers, so I doubt the line would be that concerned about their reaction to AYW dining.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[bUU]

We love the beautiful ships, the art, the flowers, the elegant decorating

These do seem to be hallmarks of HAL, FWWR. While even that could change over time, it does point out that distinctions are present, and of great importance. Over time, what is important to be distinctive will change, and there is no benefit it maintaining traditions that come to be considered negatives or costly neutrals over time, on average.

 

Someone here in another thread stated careful research has showed positive feedback about AYW dining......is that supposed to mean we are all obliged to cede to it?

I think "cede" is the wrong word. There are 25 families in my HOA. Right now, we're pretty-much happy with the landscaping. It almost surely reflects the sensibilities of the 25 families. Over time, perhaps, people will change, but more likely, some new people will move into the neighborhood. Perhaps that will move things in one direction or another. Without a doubt, some things will change, and maybe sensibilities regarding landscaping will be one of them. In that case, we can guess that how much we spend on landscaping, and even then nature of the landscaping, could and should change. Those of us who would prefer it stay the same can try to sell our ideas to others, sure, but barring success with that, if we want to stay, our best bet is to accept the changes, and live with them as best as we can.

 

I am not adverse to any and all change. I am adverse to change that is being made to make HAL more like 'the rest'.

I think people can choose whether to word it like that or not. The alternative is to view this change as making HAL more like 'how many of its prospective guests want it to be'. If many prospective guests didn't want it that way, then I think we all can agree HAL wouldn't do it. So HAL isn't doing it to be like the rest -- HAL is doing it to keep those specific prospective guests from going to other cruise lines. Why they are valuing those guests more than other guests is another topic, and it might be hard to hear the answer to that question, if you're one of the guests who perhaps don't care for this change.

 

Who created the Lido concept? Of course, the others copied it.

Indeed, so the industry doesn't suffer from Not-Invented-Here syndrome.

 

One thing that impressed me about the industry is how respectfully the leaders of various cruise lines speak about each other. I think they all realize that they're all smart people, and any one of them is capable of coming up with a good idea -- and idea so good that they all should use it.

 

If the prices have to raise moderately to continue to make the profits, make the required increases.

I disagree. Don't raise prices. I can barely afford the kind of cruises we go on with things as expensive as they are now. So it is a conflict between you and I in this regard, and HAL has to make the best choice between the two of us based on what's best for them. I would greatly resent it if you claimed that you deserve better treatment from HAL for your needs than I should get for mine! :D No, you and I are both prospective customers, and so we should have the same consideration from the cruise line, and therefore the cruise line should make its decision not based on either of us personally, but based on which decision will be best for the owners of the cruise line.

 

*** I know I have a target on my back. That's okay. This post is my opinion. It is no more (nor less) important than anyone else's. As long as I am not breaking the rules of this board, I am entitled to express it. Don't bother telling me everything wrong with my thinking. If you differ, post your own opinions. It isn't necessary to rip mine apart.

And please note that there is no ripping apart intended. Your message was very well though-out and provided a wonderful launching off point for some of my comments. Your statements invoked my thinking, and this reply is the result. Thanks for the assist! :o

[dougnewmanatsea]

HAL is not trying to be all things to all people. Maybe more things to more people, but certainly not all things to all people. There are plenty of people who are not in HAL's target market - party types, adventure types, first-time cruisers of all stripes, people who demand an ultra-luxury experience. HAL may pick up a few of these people here and there but they aren't in HAL's target market.

 

HAL's target market consists largely of middle-aged, upper-middle-income people who have been on cruises before, enjoy it, and are looking for a modest increase in price and quality from the mass-market lines.

 

HAL focuses on providing higher-quality food and service, larger, better-appointed cabins, smaller ships and a wider range of cruise lengths and itineraries than the other major lines. That may not be all things to all people but it's still a pretty wide target market - and it's been HAL's target market for a long time already. HAL's positioning is not that of a very formal, very traditional cruise line. That's Cunard's positioning. I don't think it's a coincidence that HAL has 13 ships and Cunard has two. Cunard's positioning restricts it to a pretty narrow market segment, but it's also one that allows Cunard to safely ignore a lot of trends. HAL does not have the luxury of doing that.

 

As time goes on traditional dining is becoming less and less popular. This is very clear. It does not mean that everyone wants it or that everyone will ever want it but the fact is that every year more and more people want it and every year more and more lines offer it... In every segment of the cruise market from the standard lines like NCL to the luxury ones like Silversea. Things change. Customers demand different things. Successful companies respond to customer demand. You cannot succeed if you refuse to offer what customers want!

 

It is true that many (though certainly not all) HAL repeaters will prefer traditional dining. But let's say that a generous 60% of HAL passengers have been on HAL before. This means that 40% of HAL's capacity must go to people who have not tried HAL before. AYS dining is without a doubt one thing that an ever-increasing number of those people want. This is something that didn't even exist ten years ago but has been wildly popular on NCL and Princess and probably soon Royal Caribbean. It does not mean that everyone wants it or has to have it, but more and more people do want it and one way or another they will get it - from HAL or from someone else.

 

We may not like every change made by HAL but there is logic behind all of them. HAL isn't run by idiots and frankly, it is wishful thinking to think that the relatively tiny proportion of HAL's passengers - mostly long-time passengers with extremely conservative tastes - that posts on this board really knows the best direction for the company. That's not to say that our opinions don't count but we are not a representative group of HAL repeaters let alone a representative group of HAL's target market. HAL can't afford to alienate all or even most of its repeaters but it can probably afford to alienate a handful of them in the process of getting more than a handful of new customers (who will probably become repeaters down the line, since so many people who try HAL do come back). Indeed, isn't that exactly what not being all things to all people is about?

[leoandhugh]

We think that HostDoug has said it like it is No company building more and bigger ships can exist without attracting a broader, younger base who will become the repeaters of tomorrow. And if, in so doing, they alienate some older more conservative repeaters, they are willing to pay that price. We, who post here, represent only a very small percentage of their customers, repeat or otherwise. There are some threads on this board right now from some who feel alienated to the point where they avow here they will not return to HAL. I am sure that HAL's management regrets those decisions, but they are not going to turn around sound business decisions to win a few back.:)

[CoolChile]

HAL is not trying to be all things to all people. Maybe more things to more people, but certainly not all things to all people (... Big chunk of Doug's post severed by moi, CoolChile ...) HAL can't afford to alienate all or even most of its repeaters but it can probably afford to alienate a handful of them in the process of getting more than a handful of new customers (who will probably become repeaters down the line, since so many people who try HAL do come back). Indeed, isn't that exactly what not being all things to all people is about?

 

Bravo Doug! As an about-to-be-first-time cruiser on HAL, I find this an incredibly articulate and well thought-out summation of the vision and business practices of HAL. Also helpful in increasing understanding of the cruise industry in general. (Place target here :) ).

___________

:cool: CoolChile

[grandsix]

HAL MUST NEVER change the way they have traditionally conducted their operations. However, the industry is changing and is very competitive. Therefore, HAL has to move to the future while maintaining their uniqueness.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Sea King

 

As much as I want HAL to be the way it was when we first sailed on them, I am realistic and know that times are changing.

 

Therefore HAL can't be all things to all people.