Should HAL try to be all things to all people

[sail7seas]

These do seem to be hallmarks of HAL, FWWR. While even that could change over time, it does point out that distinctions are present, and of great importance. Over time, what is important to be distinctive will change, and there is no benefit it maintaining traditions that come to be considered negatives or costly neutrals over time, on average.

 

I think "cede" is the wrong word. There are 25 families in my HOA. Right now, we're pretty-much happy with the landscaping. It almost surely reflects the sensibilities of the 25 families. Over time, perhaps, people will change, but more likely, some new people will move into the neighborhood. Perhaps that will move things in one direction or another. Without a doubt, some things will change, and maybe sensibilities regarding landscaping will be one of them. In that case, we can guess that how much we spend on landscaping, and even then nature of the landscaping, could and should change. Those of us who would prefer it stay the same can try to sell our ideas to others, sure, but barring success with that, if we want to stay, our best bet is to accept the changes, and live with them as best as we can.

 

I think people can choose whether to word it like that or not. The alternative is to view this change as making HAL more like 'how many of its prospective guests want it to be'. If many prospective guests didn't want it that way, then I think we all can agree HAL wouldn't do it. So HAL isn't doing it to be like the rest -- HAL is doing it to keep those specific prospective guests from going to other cruise lines. Why they are valuing those guests more than other guests is another topic, and it might be hard to hear the answer to that question, if you're one of the guests who perhaps don't care for this change.

 

Indeed, so the industry doesn't suffer from Not-Invented-Here syndrome.

 

One thing that impressed me about the industry is how respectfully the leaders of various cruise lines speak about each other. I think they all realize that they're all smart people, and any one of them is capable of coming up with a good idea -- and idea so good that they all should use it.

 

I disagree. Don't raise prices. I can barely afford the kind of cruises we go on with things as expensive as they are now. So it is a conflict between you and I in this regard, and HAL has to make the best choice between the two of us based on what's best for them. I would greatly resent it if you claimed that you deserve better treatment from HAL for your needs than I should get for mine! :D No, you and I are both prospective customers, and so we should have the same consideration from the cruise line, and therefore the cruise line should make its decision not based on either of us personally, but based on which decision will be best for the owners of the cruise line.

 

 

 

And please note that there is no ripping apart intended. Your message was very well though-out and provided a wonderful launching off point for some of my comments. Your statements invoked my thinking, and this reply is the result. Thanks for the assist! :o

 

 

Happy you enjoyed my post so much. Thank you for not ripping it apart. :D :)

[Nutrioso]

The idea I get from reading this thread is that passengers who prefer the anytime dining are not loyal HAL cruisers. I think you will find that many long time (since late 1960's for us) HAL cruisers were hoping that HAL would implement anytime dining. Doesn't make them disloyal to the brand or to the fine service, elegance and ambiance HAL provides. PENNY

[sail7seas]

Of course it doesn't make them (you) disloyal, Penny. Each to their preference. Repeat HAL cruisers (Mariners) or first time HAL cruisers......we each have our personal preference and no one is right; no one is wrong.

 

[NoNoNanette]

It appears to me that all of the negativity has been focused on the "As You Wish" dining program.

 

I'm fairly certain that those cruisers who do not often get a chance to dress-up for fine dining on a semi-regular basis are the ones who are rebelling against this new (for HAL) concept.

 

To us, it's not even an issue. We're fortunate enough to live in the New Orleans area. We enjoy our fine dining and frequently throw dinner parties.

 

On vacation, this is the last of our worries.

 

We decided in December that HAL is, in fact, everything that we've been looking for.

 

I've found it much easier in life to "go with the flow". Money talks. The HAL powers-that-be understand their demographics and are in business to make money. That's the bottom line.

 

Not to diminish anyone's experience, but to US, these dining gripes sound inconsequential. :)

[RevNeal]

Never mind.

[kakalina]

NO it should not.

[O2B@C]

Never mind.

 

Awww, come on, Greg, tell us what you were going to say. Knowing you, it will be worth reading, and I'm sure you can find a way to put it that won't offend anyone.:p

[CDRMark]

One of my all time favorite expostulations is concernig how those poor unfortunate people in steerage are now allowed to roam the ship at will, and the "ladies and gentlemen" (as if that is a slur :) ) in first class are now alarmed.

Those poor people in steerage (my grandparents among them) were not CRUISING. The were fleeing to or from.

Their children and grandkids (thanks ancestors!) are now "cruising" for real.

There are enough lines and enough cruisers to have a niche for everyone. Let HAL be HAL; calm elegant and understated. I'm betting they sail at 99.9% occupancy as usual.

Cheers

Mark

[Copper10-8]

Should HAL try to be all things to all people

 

Negative! That's impossible to accomplish!

[HeatherInFlorida]

I don't see much or any disagreement here at all. In fact, everyone seems to be pretty much on the same page.

 

I agree that HAL can't be all things to all people and I don't think it's trying to be. But I do believe that it is reaching out more to new business than to the business it already enjoys. And they hope that those who have loved HAL over the years will adjust to the changes they are making and will continue to make down the line.

 

Here on CC we may or may not be representative of HAL's passengers as a whole. We're constantly being told that we are not and since I can't prove that we are, I won't debate that. But it's difficult for me to believe that those of us in this forum who are not interested in AYW dining are the ONLY ones who feel that way.

[CDRMark]

Snip...

I think "cede" is the wrong word. There are 25 families in my HOA. Right now, we're pretty-much happy with the landscaping. It almost surely reflects the sensibilities of the 25 families. Over time, perhaps, people will change, but more likely, some new people will move into the neighborhood. Perhaps that will move things in one direction or another. Without a doubt, some things will change, and maybe sensibilities regarding landscaping will be one of them. In that case, we can guess that how much we spend on landscaping, and even then nature of the landscaping, could and should change. Those of us who would prefer it stay the same can try to sell our ideas to others, sure, but barring success with that, if we want to stay, our best bet is to accept the changes, and live with them as best as we can.

[ /quote]

If your HOA is anything like many, it responds to a Board of fewer people than actually live there. For me, 5 members decide for all 117. We elect them and agree to abide by their decisions. Representational Democracy.

Change is slow and painful, like life.

Cheers

Mark

[fcorey]

HAL is not trying to be all things to all people. Maybe more things to more people, but certainly not all things to all people. There are plenty of people who are not in HAL's target market - party types, adventure types, first-time cruisers of all stripes, people who demand an ultra-luxury experience. HAL may pick up a few of these people here and there but they aren't in HAL's target market.

 

HAL's target market consists largely of middle-aged, upper-middle-income people who have been on cruises before, enjoy it, and are looking for a modest increase in price and quality from the mass-market lines.

 

HAL focuses on providing higher-quality food and service, larger, better-appointed cabins, smaller ships and a wider range of cruise lengths and itineraries than the other major lines. That may not be all things to all people but it's still a pretty wide target market - and it's been HAL's target market for a long time already. HAL's positioning is not that of a very formal, very traditional cruise line. That's Cunard's positioning. I don't think it's a coincidence that HAL has 13 ships and Cunard has two. Cunard's positioning restricts it to a pretty narrow market segment, but it's also one that allows Cunard to safely ignore a lot of trends. HAL does not have the luxury of doing that.

 

As time goes on traditional dining is becoming less and less popular. This is very clear. It does not mean that everyone wants it or that everyone will ever want it but the fact is that every year more and more people want it and every year more and more lines offer it... In every segment of the cruise market from the standard lines like NCL to the luxury ones like Silversea. Things change. Customers demand different things. Successful companies respond to customer demand. You cannot succeed if you refuse to offer what customers want!

 

It is true that many (though certainly not all) HAL repeaters will prefer traditional dining. But let's say that a generous 60% of HAL passengers have been on HAL before. This means that 40% of HAL's capacity must go to people who have not tried HAL before. AYS dining is without a doubt one thing that an ever-increasing number of those people want. This is something that didn't even exist ten years ago but has been wildly popular on NCL and Princess and probably soon Royal Caribbean. It does not mean that everyone wants it or has to have it, but more and more people do want it and one way or another they will get it - from HAL or from someone else.

 

We may not like every change made by HAL but there is logic behind all of them. HAL isn't run by idiots and frankly, it is wishful thinking to think that the relatively tiny proportion of HAL's passengers - mostly long-time passengers with extremely conservative tastes - that posts on this board really knows the best direction for the company. That's not to say that our opinions don't count but we are not a representative group of HAL repeaters let alone a representative group of HAL's target market. HAL can't afford to alienate all or even most of its repeaters but it can probably afford to alienate a handful of them in the process of getting more than a handful of new customers (who will probably become repeaters down the line, since so many people who try HAL do come back). Indeed, isn't that exactly what not being all things to all people is about?

 

Doug, good post. I have a question about HAL and competition. As you say even if repeat cruisers make up 60%, they still need to fill the other 40% of the cabins say 800 people on a vista each week. That's a good amount of people, now multiply it by 13 ships, and by weeks in the year and you get half a million new passengers per year. (I am just using round numbers and yes I am awarethat most HAL ships are smaller than a vista) No small undertaking, and as someone else mentioned none of us are getting any younger. So cruise lines need to do what it takes to position themselves to draw those people.

 

HAL isn't luxury like you said nor is it ultra conservative or as traditional as Cunard. Their direct competition I would say is Celebrity and Princess. What do you think of HAL going head to head on pricing with more mass market lines? Don't you think that aggressive price competition is not a positive thing for the industry in general including HAL? The reason I say this is that cruise fares are comparatively lower now than when we went on our first cruise 7 years ago. I cant keep from wondering that with the prices of fuel and such increasing and sooner or later something has to give.

[bUU]

I don't see much or any disagreement here at all. In fact, everyone seems to be pretty much on the same page.

I believe the disagreement is there, just cleverly hidden under the surface by the wording of the question. The disagreement is really a matter of whether or not HAL is trying to be "all things to all people" -- some people clearly think they are, while others clearly think they're not.

 

Here on CC we may or may not be representative of HAL's passengers as a whole.

Keep in mind that even being representative of HAL's past passengers isn't really important... what is important is being representative of HAL's future passengers.

 

We're constantly being told that we are not and since I can't prove that we are, I won't debate that. But it's difficult for me to believe that those of us in this forum who are not interested in AYW dining are the ONLY ones who feel that way.

People who are unhappy will voice their opinions much more vociferously than those who are happy (the exceptions being loudmouths like me :)). However, again, we're actually missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether anyone is "not interested in AYW dining". What matters is if anyone is interested in AYW dining. The way the offering is structured, folks who want the old offering can secure it by booking early enough, effectively buffering them from the effect of this change, if they so choose. So from HAL's perspective, there is only up-side.

[bUU]

If your HOA is anything like many, it responds to a Board of fewer people than actually live there. For me, 5 members decide for all 117. We elect them and agree to abide by their decisions. Representational Democracy.

I think perhaps my example wasn't as good of an example as I hoped it would be, since we've driven away from the point. What I was pointing out was that things change over time, often because the prevailing preferences of the people change, either internally, or because new people come into the mix. In cases where the prevailing preferences of the people are changing, those who wish to keep things the same can try to sell their ideas to the others but, if unsuccessful, need to just accept the changes, and live with them as best as they can.

[innlady1]

;) I wouldn't sell AYW dining short until you give it a chance. We had Anytime Dining on our Princess cruise; traditional dining on Holland America cruise on the Noordam.

 

To tell the absolute truth, I preferred the Anytime Dining on the Princess, and look forward to As You Wish Dining on HAL. As long as it's as well managed as on Princess.

 

We had a wonderful waiter the 1st night we were on Princess, and immediately booked his table for all of the nights we wanted to dine in the dining room...at the times we wished to dine (we were a party of 6). When we wanted "traditional dining," we booked a reservation at his table...at whatever time we preferred.

 

Days in port, when we wanted to dine a bit later, we were able to adjust the time and still have the same table/same waitstaff.

 

On the Noordam, we had Early Seating each night...and some nights it was a rush to get to the dining room on time. Especially when we were in port.

 

Early Seating is a bit too early for us; Late Seating is a tad late. So I'm looking forward to something "in between."

 

I really wouldn't sell it short until you try it.

[WillieF]

 

Negative! That's impossible to accomplish!

 

Agree!

 

In my mind, it's a stupid question! and impossible to accomplish - like clothing, as a basic example - I'm 5'2" 80lbs - my best friend is is 5'7" 180lbs - we should dress alike??????????????

 

What HAL does, it does well.

 

There that's old saying - 'you can please all of the people some of the time; you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time!'

[bUU]

Their direct competition I would say is Celebrity and Princess.

If that were the case, then that would be interesting. There needs to be some distinction between Princess and HAL, or one or other other shouldn't exist.

 

Don't you think that aggressive price competition is not a positive thing for the industry in general including HAL?

It's funny because in some other forums I participate in (specifically, related to television services), most folks maniacally consider anything that spurs on "aggressive price competition" to be a good thing -- indeed, very few people seem to give a second thought to what would adversely affect the long-term viability of any of the business enterprises involved. I think it is rather remarkable, actually, that this forum seems to have some strong focus on the health of the industry or of specific parts of it, instead of just caring about consumerism.

[CDRMark]

I think perhaps my example wasn't as good of an example as I hoped it would be, since we've driven away from the point. What I was pointing out was that things change over time, often because the prevailing preferences of the people change, either internally, or because new people come into the mix. In cases where the prevailing preferences of the people are changing, those who wish to keep things the same can try to sell their ideas to the others but, if unsuccessful, need to just accept the changes, and live with them as best as they can.

Perhaps it was a bad example. My point was that sometimes a small sample may change the whole from what was intended historically for good or ill.

I am not certain if HAL is trying to be all things to all cruisers (a subset of all people), but it seems to be reacting poorly to a new paradigm.

Mark

[innlady1]

 

People who are unhappy will voice their opinions much more vociferously than those who are happy (the exceptions being loudmouths like me :)).

 

However, again, we're actually missing the point here. It doesn't matter whether anyone is "not interested in AYW dining". What matters is if anyone is interested in AYW dining. The way the offering is structured, folks who want the old offering can secure it by booking early enough, effectively buffering them from the effect of this change, if they so choose. So from HAL's perspective, there is only up-side.

 

In short, if you snooze, you lose! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sorry...I just couldn't resist....

[Bramcruiser]

Should, or perhaps more importantly, can HAL be all things to all people?

 

An excellent question. We have seen several discussions on other boards including the Cunard one recently where so-called experts' views on the industry were dissected.

 

We can all point to Carnival as both a saviour and a monster when it comes to changing the cruise industry but its a well-focused line knowing what its product is and using the other lines it bought to provide the niches that it needs to serve.

 

One big personal issue I have is exactly what the OP brought up - just what is it that HAL is trying to be nowadays? Granted its in that premium level of the mass market lines and most likely Cunard (not a class system as our OP pointed out; another common misconception:) ) and Celebrity are at that level. However, management feels that somehow the trashing HAL gets from being known in some circles as a floating retirement home is something it needs to fix. Great! I support that view too and see nothing wrong with going after misperceptions.

 

However, I have wondered from time to time that HAL is wasting good opportunities by becoming what made other cruise lines successful and thus in the end risks losing an identity and its place in the market. It simply cannot be all things to all people. I agree that overall market trends dictates the future flow of business decisions - and I do agree that you have to change to survive - but sometimes a good manager has to make the business lead the market and I just am fearful. If you provide too much you just find yourself all over the map. I enjoyed my previous sailing on HAL but do have some fears about where its headed. Hopefully HAL's management will prove the OP and myself wrong. HAL fans can be loyal to the end but its ability to show who it is to others is what is what the OP is curious about!

 

David

[fcorey]

If that were the case, then that would be interesting. There needs to be some distinction between Princess and HAL, or one or other other shouldn't exist.

 

It's funny because in some other forums I participate in (specifically, related to television services), most folks maniacally consider anything that spurs on "aggressive price competition" to be a good thing -- indeed, very few people seem to give a second thought to what would adversely affect the long-term viability of any of the business enterprises involved. I think it is rather remarkable, actually, that this forum seems to have some strong focus on the health of the industry or of specific parts of it, instead of just caring about consumerism.

 

I wasnt implying that HAL, Princess and Celebrity are interchangable, that is clearly not the case. I meant that all three percieved as a step above mass market, particularly HAL and X. Personally I really like that all the lines are somewhat unique because you can try other experiences which I am looking forward to.

 

I dont know anything about commercial TV so I am not sure I fully understand the point you are trying to make there. What I was referring to was that people here talk about how little things are going away and reduced perks etc. I see that as a fact of economics, they need to make a profit, as their costs go up, some are passed on to the passenger some arent. The reality of this is that some things need to be cut, and organizations either learn to run more efficiently and cut those costs or they will not survive.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

The simple answer is no. I would like to see HAL retain the elegance and the experience of traditional cruising. The loyalty of passengers and the 'niche' that HAL has created over the past 100+ years will only remain if you let your voice be heard.

 

"A place for everything and everything in it's place".

 

Bon Voyage and Good Health,

Bob:)

[dougnewmanatsea]

But it's difficult for me to believe that those of us in this forum who are not interested in AYW dining are the ONLY ones who feel that way.

Of course not. However, the overwhelming majority of vocal posters on this forum - the people who spend a lot of time talking about HAL - do seem to be against AYW dining, or at the very least not interested in it themselves.

 

But when was the last time HAL changed something - anything - and most people here didn't find the change objectionable? Even things like the new bedding were widely derided as "well it's nice but HAL really should have spent the money on (insert thing more important to that person here instead". And usually a good portion of the people bring Carnival into the mix too, as inevitably every change is cast by some as "Carnivalization" (even if it is a change that makes HAL more different from Carnival - like this one, in fact!).

 

It seems to me that a lot of people here - many of the most vocal people - are extremely pessimistic about HAL's future direction, and have been for ages. I can't even remember how many times there seems to have been a widespread consensus that this is the last straw, HAL has finally changed too much, etc.!

 

HAL isn't luxury like you said nor is it ultra conservative or as traditional as Cunard. Their direct competition I would say is Celebrity and Princess. What do you think of HAL going head to head on pricing with more mass market lines?

Well, they have been - for some cruises - in a similar price range as a mass-market line for a long time. Just about the only line that genuinely conceives of itself as "mass market" is Carnival.

 

Of the big six lines I perceive HAL as being the most upscale. HAL ships are generally smaller, have more space per passenger, larger cabins, more suites and mini-suites. HAL has more long cruises than any of the others (Princess is the only one that has any at all!) and goes to a wider range of destinations than any cruise line (again only Princess comes close).

 

Oh and now we can add AYS dining to that list - offered only on some ships by Princess and on no ships at all by Celebrity.

 

I believe the disagreement is there, just cleverly hidden under the surface by the wording of the question. The disagreement is really a matter of whether or not HAL is trying to be "all things to all people" -- some people clearly think they are, while others clearly think they're not.

Exactly! I mean, is there anyone who actually thinks HAL should try to be all things to all people?

 

Not "Should HAL try to be all things to all people?", but rather, "Is HAL trying to be all things to all people?" - that's the real question here.

 

The way the offering is structured, folks who want the old offering can secure it by booking early enough, effectively buffering them from the effect of this change, if they so choose. So from HAL's perspective, there is only up-side.

I wouldn't go so far to say that there's no potential downside to HAL. The potential downside is that more people will want one type of dining than can get it - and inevitably the ones who can't get it will be unhappy. That isn't good for HAL.

 

It is a given that there will be people who don't like the change. That is always the case. The question is, will the change bring enough benefit to outweigh that?

 

There needs to be some distinction between Princess and HAL, or one or other other shouldn't exist.

As it stands the two brands are perceived as being different enough that it doesn't matter.

 

They do aim at the same general target market, but they have been becoming progressively more differentiated.

 

Note most of the aspects I pointed out above - smaller ships (well except Princess' three R ships!), larger cabins, more space per passenger, more suites and so on.

 

Also, more in-cabin amenities (luxury bedding, flat panels, DVD players); more amenities for suite passengers (concierge lounge etc.), more consistent offerings fleetwide (e.g., same dining options on all ships). And the ships look and feel different too.

 

And most importantly, each brand is simply too valuable for the idea of scrapping one to be conceivable.

[hammybee]

It seems to me that a lot of people here - many of the most vocal people - are extremely pessimistic about HAL's future direction, and have been for ages. I can't even remember how many times there seems to have been a widespread consensus that this is the last straw, HAL has finally changed too much, etc.!

 

As much of a big deal "AYW" has been, it has yet to match the bru-ha-ha associated with the introduction of The Oddesy Restaurant and the VISTA Class ship. So many insisted they would never ........but they eventually did and so many of them enjoyed the change. This too shall pass.

[dougnewmanatsea]

As much of a big deal "AYW" has been, it has yet to match the bru-ha-ha associated with the introduction of The Oddesy Restaurant and the VISTA Class ship.

I still don't like the Vistas! I mean, they're fine, but I don't like them. I just can't warm to these like I have to their R-class predecessors.

 

I remember the hubbub about the Pinnacle Grill - the food in the dining room will instantly become terrible so you go there, etc. - so much for that!

 

I think the bottom line is that there is a pretty deep underlying dislike of change here that comes to the surface any time HAL does something new or different.