JONES ACT...Can't book LA Vancouver???

[cotedazur]

:mad: I am so annoyed!!! I was just told that I CANNOT book LA-Vancouver on the Island Princess and then Vancouver-Whittier on the same ship. I have already booked the Vancouver-Whittier on the Island. Why is it legal to book LA to Vancouver? Then somehow it is illegal to get back on the ship (after disembarking) and take the same ship from Vancouver to Whittier!! I JUST DO NOT GET IT.

[lvtotrvl1]

This seems to come up often..if you do a search there are hundreds of opinions..it is actually due to the Jones act.

[Toto2Kansas]

There is nothing you can do about this except be annoyed. Sorry, but they stick to those Jones Act rules and there is no way around it.

[Pam in CA]

This is due to the Passenger Services Act, an antiquated law enacted in 1866 to protect American shipping and shipbuilders. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Services_Act

 

The Jones Act was enacted in 1920 and is an amendment to the PSA and affects passengers. Not only are these laws antiquated but the PSA is currently reviewing a regulation that would require all cruise ships embarking and disembarking from a U.S. port spend at least 50% of their time in a foreign port AND 48 hours in one port. This would seriously affect Alaska, New England and Hawaiian cruises not to mention the economies of San Diego, Los Angeles, Boston, New York, etc., etc. This review is at the request of NCLA which has two ships cruising in HI and they wanted to require all foreign-flagged vessels to spend 50% of their time in a foreign port which would pretty much kill the round trip cruises out of LA and San Diego to and from HI. To read more about it, go to this thread on CC: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=687517

[Tobintemp]

It has something to do with the Jones Act - there is something in their about a distant port of call being required (and Vancouver isn't considered distant) I was getting the same run around from Princess, but I was trying to book a 6 day round trip Los Angeles to Mexico followed by a 6 day coastal from Los Angeles to Vancouver and they wouldn't let me book that either stating the same reason (another cruise line did though so I can't figure out the logic)

[chrysalis]

It has something to do with the Jones Act - there is something in their about a distant port of call being required (and Vancouver isn't considered distant) I was getting the same run around from Princess, but I was trying to book a 6 day round trip Los Angeles to Mexico followed by a 6 day coastal from Los Angeles to Vancouver and they wouldn't let me book that either stating the same reason (another cruise line did though so I can't figure out the logic)

 

"run around from Princess"???...how does abiding by the law become a "run around"?

[Pam in CA]

It has something to do with the Jones Act - there is something in their about a distant port of call being required (and Vancouver isn't considered distant) I was getting the same run around from Princess, but I was trying to book a 6 day round trip Los Angeles to Mexico followed by a 6 day coastal from Los Angeles to Vancouver and they wouldn't let me book that either stating the same reason (another cruise line did though so I can't figure out the logic)

Of course they couldn't. It was against the law. Did you expect them to make an exception just for you?

[paul929207]

By US law, non-american ships cannot pick up a passenger in one US port & drop them off in another. The law, which also cover goods, was intended to help the US shipping.

 

If you want it changed write to your US Senaor or Representative.

[SeattleCruiselover]

To clarify: The Jones Act applies to freight/cargo only; and the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act) applies to passengers only, but the intent is the same. It is illegal to travel on a foreign flagged ship from one US port to another without a DISTANT foreign stop.

 

In order to the the LAX-YVR-ANC cruise, you would first have to go to Russia, because neither Canada nor Mexico meet the requirement for distant foreign stop. You could only do this trip on an American flagged ship that had permission to do it (i.e. you couldn't do it on Pride of America or Pride of Aloha, which would be the only American flagged ships large enough to do it, because their agreement with the state of Hawaii and the US Government prohibits them from sailing anywhere but Hawaii inter-island) and was large enough to do the open ocean cruising for that distance.

 

The same would apply to a Mexican Riviera RT LAX, then LAX to YVR.

 

Customs has a copy of the manifest of all ships, and they do screen for PVSA violations and fine the violators (and the violator is the passenger, not the cruise line).

[SharkieRools]

It has something to do with the Jones Act - there is something in their about a distant port of call being required (and Vancouver isn't considered distant) I was getting the same run around from Princess, but I was trying to book a 6 day round trip Los Angeles to Mexico followed by a 6 day coastal from Los Angeles to Vancouver and they wouldn't let me book that either stating the same reason (another cruise line did though so I can't figure out the logic)

 

Offhand I can't see what is wrong with this itinerary. Princess is transporting you from LA to Vancouver so the PSA wouldn't apply as the cruise ends in a foreign port. Am I missing something?

[Murphey]

"run around from Princess"???...how does abiding by the law become a "run around"?

 

Of course they couldn't. It was against the law. Did you expect them to make an exception just for you?

 

Hey, lighten up a little, the poster said another line let them do it.

[chasetf]

:mad: I am so annoyed!!! I was just told that I CANNOT book LA-Vancouver on the Island Princess and then Vancouver-Whittier on the same ship. I have already booked the Vancouver-Whittier on the Island. Why is it legal to book LA to Vancouver? Then somehow it is illegal to get back on the ship (after disembarking) and take the same ship from Vancouver to Whittier!! I JUST DO NOT GET IT.

Another case of READY ....FIRE ......AIM. Who are you annoyed at.... hopefully Congress and not the cruiseline or your TA.

 

Sorry you did not do your homework. You obviously are not familiar with the PSA or you would have known. And... you cannot beat it by "disembarking". PSA looks at where you get on and where you get off.

 

Interesting thing is you could add the leg after Whitter (Whitter to Vancouver) and you would be legal. Then you would be traveling LA to Vancouver which is legal.... whereas LA to Whitter is not.

[chasetf]

By US law, non-american ships cannot pick up a passenger in one US port & drop them off in another.............

That is really a simplification and not completely true. They can embark in one US port and disembark at another US port if they stop at a distant foreign port. We sailed from Ft Lauderdale to San Francisco and the reason we could is we stopped at the distant foreign port of Aruba.

 

In the OPs case, Vancouver is not a "Distant Foreign Port".... and that is why it does not qualify. If the ship sailed from LA and stopped in Tahiti for instance before arriving in Vancouver, they would be able to continue to Whitter because their trip would be LA to Whitter with a requisite distant foreign port.

[CTGirl]

After reading this, I'm wondering if I'm going to have a problem.

 

I am booked on a b2b. The first leg is a Mexican Riviera cruise RT from Los Angeles. The second leg goes to Vancouver. We are stopping in Victoria for that one before going to Vancouver. I actually booked this twice with Princess (booked and rebooked for a better price) wth no problem. I was told however, that I could not continue on for a 1 day to Seattle. There are other people from the roll call doing the same.

 

I know this is a diferent itinerary than the OP but someone else here mentioned not being able to do what I am doing.

 

Any thoughts?

Shelly

[Druke I]

I think your planned cruise is fine, and will not run afoul of the statutes, as I understand them.

 

(I am not a lawyer, have not studied maritime law, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night.)

[Globaliser]

Why is it legal to book LA to Vancouver? Then somehow it is illegal to get back on the ship (after disembarking) and take the same ship from Vancouver to Whittier!!

Because you would have just converted your voyage into one from Los Angeles (USA) to Whittier (USA). How hard is that to understand? It is not a break of journey if you get back on the same ship on the same day.

[wrp96]

Offhand I can't see what is wrong with this itinerary. Princess is transporting you from LA to Vancouver so the PSA wouldn't apply as the cruise ends in a foreign port. Am I missing something?

 

LA Vancouver by itself does not violate the PSA. The problem is that when he adds the Vancouver to Whittier leg it becomes a trip between LA and Whittier. In order for THAT not to violate the PSA, he would have to make a stop at a distant foreign port. No ports in Canada qualify as distant foreign ports.

[SeattleCruiselover]

CTGirl: No, you're fine. You end in a foreign port, but you cannot get back on the ship and come down here to Seattle. That WOULD be a PVSA violation.

[SharkieRools]

LA Vancouver by itself does not violate the PSA. The problem is that when he adds the Vancouver to Whittier leg it becomes a trip between LA and Whittier. In order for THAT not to violate the PSA, he would have to make a stop at a distant foreign port. No ports in Canada qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

The poster I was replying to wasn't going to Whittier, only a LA to Mexico rountrip followed by a LA to Vancouver leg. :cool:

 

It has something to do with the Jones Act - there is something in their about a distant port of call being required (and Vancouver isn't considered distant) I was getting the same run around from Princess, but I was trying to book a 6 day round trip Los Angeles to Mexico followed by a 6 day coastal from Los Angeles to Vancouver and they wouldn't let me book that either stating the same reason (another cruise line did though so I can't figure out the logic)

[jak378]

Customs has a copy of the manifest of all ships, and they do screen for PVSA violations and fine the violators (and the violator is the passenger, not the cruise line).

 

I could easily be mistaken, but I thought that I read in another thread on the same subject that both the passenger AND the cruise line would be in violation, and therfore be fined.

[LARGIN]

:mad: I am so annoyed!!! I was just told that I CANNOT book LA-Vancouver on the Island Princess and then Vancouver-Whittier on the same ship. I have already booked the Vancouver-Whittier on the Island. Why is it legal to book LA to Vancouver? Then somehow it is illegal to get back on the ship (after disembarking) and take the same ship from Vancouver to Whittier!! I JUST DO NOT GET IT.

They are correct. That is why we are doing a b2b2b Alaska.

 

leg 1.. San Francisco/Vancouver

leg 2.. Vancouver/Whittier

leg 3.. Whittier/Vancouver

 

In the eyes of the PSA, this is a San Francisco/Vancouver cruise which is legal. :)

[SeattleCruiselover]

I probably worded that wrong. Both would be in violation, but the cruise lines bill the passenger for their $300.00 fine (the cruise line's). Whether they ever get it back from them or not is another issue entirely.

 

I know of some who will try to get around it by booking on two different ships from the same cruise line--getting off of one and onto the other on the same day, but I also know of some of them who ended up paying the piper for doing so. Personally, I prefer not to take any chances.....

[jak378]

I probably worded that wrong. Both would be in violation, but the cruise lines bill the passenger for their $300.00 fine (the cruise line's). Whether they ever get it back from them or not is another issue entirely.

 

I know of some who will try to get around it by booking on two different ships from the same cruise line--getting off of one and onto the other on the same day, but I also know of some of them who ended up paying the piper for doing so. Personally, I prefer not to take any chances.....

 

Thanks for the clarification. Assuming that you have already settled your oboard charges and left the ship, I wonder if they would just go ahead and bill the credit card that you had on file for the cruise.

 

I do agree that I see no point in taking a chance in going around the law, like it or not.

[SeattleCruiselover]

I have actually seen them send out invoices, rather than just direct charging the credit card. Of course, with the software that most cruise lines have now, a violation is fairly rare, because they are caught when the res is made. If it is a direct res, they tell the pax at the time. If a TA tries to make the res online or through GDS (other reservations software), they issue a warning to prevent the reservation being made.

[daveco58]

To clarify: The Jones Act applies to freight/cargo only; and the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act) applies to passengers only, but the intent is the same. It is illegal to travel on a foreign flagged ship from one US port to another without a DISTANT foreign stop.

 

In order to the the LAX-YVR-ANC cruise, you would first have to go to Russia, because neither Canada nor Mexico meet the requirement for distant foreign stop. You could only do this trip on an American flagged ship that had permission to do it (i.e. you couldn't do it on Pride of America or Pride of Aloha, which would be the only American flagged ships large enough to do it, because their agreement with the state of Hawaii and the US Government prohibits them from sailing anywhere but Hawaii inter-island) and was large enough to do the open ocean cruising for that distance.

 

The same would apply to a Mexican Riviera RT LAX, then LAX to YVR.

 

Customs has a copy of the manifest of all ships, and they do screen for PVSA violations and fine the violators (and the violator is the passenger, not the cruise line).

 

And to refine it even further - neither the Jones Act (which mostly just created the US Merchant Marine, and sets work rules for them), nor the PVSA apply only to ships.

You also cannot take a foreign air or rail carrier from one US city to another, nor can foreign truckers haul goods from one US city to another.

A lot of cruisers get up in arms about the PVSA, as though it were directed at them. It may be the law is antiquated, but there are similar "cabotage" laws in most countries, and pretty much every maritime nation has equivalent laws regarding foreign flagged vessels providing domestic transportation.

Even the EU, which has now existed for quite some time, and supposedly has no border restrictions, , is struggling with this issue.