Kids in Pinnacle Grill

[JerseyJaguar]

[quote name='tchix']I know that sounds rude, but I just hate it that this forum seems to draw out all the kid-haters, and those who say "Oh I don't hate kids, I just dont want them around me," who then go on to give "advice" like "leave your kids with grandma" or "dont bring a child to the PG, put them in club HAL" to parents who haven't asked for that advice at all. It's misleading and for new cruisers it makes HAL (and it's clientele) seem incredibly un-kid friendly, which (for anyone who has sailed on HAL), is not actually the case.
[/quote]
You're right, it does sound rude. Calling someone a "kid-hater" because they want a nice adult meal is very rude. You have no idea what their situation is, whether they have kids or not, you only know that they'd like an extra priced meal to be a nice, quiet adult experience.

[tchix]

[quote name='JerseyJaguar']You have no idea what their situation is, .[/quote]

True, nor do you know the same for the parents and/or children you cruise with and who post here asking questions.

I will continue to make the "assumption" that those who say they dont want kids around are (as I said) in fact "kid-haters" OR people who say they dont hate kids but dont want them around... It's a much more fair one than the one that all kids are disasters who will, by their mere presence, ruin your meal.

[JerseyJaguar]

[quote name='tchix']True, nor do you know the same for the parents and/or children you cruise with and who post here asking questions.

I will continue to make the "assumption" that those who say they dont want kids around are (as I said) in fact "kid-haters" OR people who say they dont hate kids but dont want them around... It's a much more fair one than the one that all kids are disasters who will, by their mere presence, ruin your meal.[/quote]
I see, your opinion of posters as "kid-haters" is OK, but people stating parents exaggerate about how well behaved their children are and who have experienced out of control children in nice restaurants and don't want repeat experiences are making unfair statements.
:rolleyes:

[tchix]

Um, I'm really sorry because I don't want this to turn into a back and forth, but I think you are missing the point of my post and misreading and twisting what I am saying.

I said I am upset by some of the posts by people who are "kid haters" [B]OR people who say they don't hate kids BUT don't want them around[/B]. And no, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that people who say things like "If I saw kids in the PG I would leave" or "I don't want any kids in the restaurant during my special dinner" or "I hope there are no kids on my cruise" are people who don't want kids around.

But I have no problem with people posting that parents overexaggerate their child's stellar behavior - I am sure they do. And I don't really have an issue with people who say that they want a kid-free meal- that's your choice.

But what I do have a problem with is when people/posters try to enforce THEIR desire for a kid-free meal (or show or restaurant or cruise) by telling other people on the boards that they should not bring their kids (whom they know nothing about) to the PG, or to the shows, or on the cruise at all! All I'm saying is that if you want a kid-free atmosphere, choose a cruise (or vacation or eatery or theater) that doesn't allow kids -- don't try to make parents whom you don't know feel guilty by telling them it is improper for them to make their own choice whether to bring their children (whom you also don't know) places where children are allowed, just because you would prefer they not be there!

[babyher]

Look there are out of control brats in the world, and their obnoxious parents who just let them get away with it.

There are also miserable old coots who complain about everything.

They are not the standard for either group, but sadly their are enough of them that we have to come in contact with them far more than we would like to.

Take people as they come, Don't assume the child seated near you will act up until they do, don't assume the parents won't do anything until they don't , and then deal with it.

Don't assume the older folks will be a bunch of crabs until they are , and then again deal with it accordingly.

So you had a bad experience last week in Pinnacle or at Applebees or where ever , That means you are going to have one tonight or next week? Please.

Some people go into situations with their dukes up looking for an arguement. "Oh my God , theres a 5 year old in the same area code as our table , get the waiter , get the Maitre "D , I want another table "

Don't make an issue , until there is an issue

[CowPrincess]

[QUOTE]I do have a problem with is when people/posters try to enforce THEIR desire for a kid-free meal [/QUOTE]

Yet you have no problem with insisting that you have the right to take your children anywhere children are "permitted", regardless of how inappropriate the venue may be FOR your children:

[QUOTE]i don't give a d*mn whether or not YOU think a 2 year old should be at a broadway show, or if YOU think that 6 month old should be at the pinnacle grill. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]don't try to bully parents into making choices for their children the way you want them to.
[/QUOTE]

I don't see anyone in this thread bullying anyone else. I see varied opinions, not all of which are consistent with yours.

Because someone doesn't want to have a fine dining experience interrupted by misbehaving children does NOT mean they are "kid haters". My issue is with the [B]parents [/B]who allow the unruly, disruptive, brattish behaviour to impinge on everyone else's enjoyment. And as I can never tell who those parents are until the tantrum/screaming/shrieking/crying STARTS, it makes for a much more pleasant evening or event for me to avoid the groups that include children.

Again, I did not develop this opinion in a vacuum -- I've had out of control children and adjourned parents inflicted on me far too often.

You do what you want, I'll do what I want. I'm not a kid hater, and I think my approach is the one that works best for me and the groups with kids and significantly reduces any chance of unpleasantness.

[world~citizen]

[quote name='tchix']True, nor do you know the same for the parents and/or children you cruise with and who post here asking questions.

I will continue to make the "assumption" that those who say they dont want kids around are (as I said) in fact "kid-haters" OR people who say they dont hate kids but dont want them around... It's a much more fair one than the one that all kids are disasters who will, by their mere presence, ruin your meal.[/quote]

You are entitled to "assume" what you wish, but that doesn't make it so.:)

Smooth sailing to you.

[Roz]

Yes, I've encountered rude adults in movie theatres, restaurants, stores, etc.

However, I've yet to see an adult lie down and scream in a shrill voice at the top of their lungs for what seems like eternity, while pounding their hands and feet on the floor and turning beet red. This past week I witnessed these antics on an airplane, in a restaurant, in a store, and in a church. The parent(s) seemed oblivious.

Roz

[pipedreams62]

I've constantly been reading these boards and when it comes to AYWD wearing shorts in the dining room and not wearing a tux. The cry is

"This Is What People want",The cruise line is only doing what the masses want"


Well the Celebrity Is building a brand new ship Solstice,and are having a special area for adults only with a lap pool, steam room etc.

Princess also has an adult pool, jacuzzi "Adult" hang out area.


I guess this is what people want or the ship designers would never have built the boat this way. They could have easily put more stores,or slot machines in this space and made more money.

The truth is there are a certain amount of people (and no they're not people who should lose their membership to the human race).

They just want a relaxing cruise without kids every square inch of the ship.

why is it so hard to understand?

[tchix]

[quote name='CowPrincess']Yet you have no problem with insisting that you have the right to take your children anywhere children are "permitted", regardless of how inappropriate the venue may be FOR your children:





[/quote]
You prove my point- yes, I DO have the right to take my children anywhere they are permitted- and no one else on this board, or the ship knows me or my children and has the right to determine whether the venue is appropriate or not for them. All I am suggesting is that each person and family determine what is right with them- if you do not find it appropriate for YOU to be at a meal with children, pick another cruiseline or restaurant. If I think the venue is inappropriate, I will not bring my children, but that's going to be based on my children and their behavior, not what someone else thinks or wants.

[JerseyJaguar]

[quote name='tchix']I said I am upset by some of the posts by people who are "kid haters" [B]OR people who say they don't hate kids BUT don't want them around[/B]. And no, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that people who say things like "If I saw kids in the PG I would leave" or "I don't want any kids in the restaurant during my special dinner" or "I hope there are no kids on my cruise" are people who don't want kids around.
[/quote]
The way I interpret this is that you think folks only say they don't hate kids, but....

Meanwhile, you're the one throwing "kid haters" and "hate kids" around. I find these extremely distasteful phrases that aren't deserved simply because folks want their special times to be free of strange children's tantrums.

[CowPrincess]

tchix,

I respect your right to your opinion. I would appreciate the same consideration from you.

Again, I will state: You do what you want, I'll do what I want. Seldom (if ever) does a discussion on a chat board changes anyone's mind about their personal opinion. And that's all either your or I have -- [B]an opinion[/B].


Roz said:

[QUOTE]However, I've yet to see an adult lie down and scream in a shrill voice at the top of their lungs for what seems like eternity, while pounding their hands and feet on the floor and turning beet red. This past week I witnessed these antics on an airplane, in a restaurant, in a store, and in a church. The parent(s) seemed oblivious.
[/QUOTE]

Except for the airplane, you could have been with me all week :)

[RuthC]

[quote name='kryos']But I still agree with you. The screaming child has to be removed. It's not fair to other diners to let them remain, and least not in any restaurant above a fast food one like MacDonald's.[/quote]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=royalblue]No, not there, either. It's not the type of restaurant that matters---it's the behavior. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=royalblue]It's the parents' responsibility to deal with it promptly, no matter where it happens. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[lkmamom]

Ruth, you are [B]absolutely [/B]right. Our family just went on a short cruise on the QM2. It was made very clear prior to the cruise that the theme was "elegant". We shared dinner with a young but professional couple that we loved talking with but they had a very active two year old. To be honest, I think they just ignored him because that was the way they always do it. I was actually embarassed for them. The poor waiters had to dodge him as he threw clothes and crayons and everything else. We gently suggested that he might be more happy and comfortable if they fed him first in the Lido or maybe even used the child care on the ship.

I admit it, I am one of those that gets offended when some group "kids" in general, as bad to be around. Some kids are really well mannered and should be respected for that. When situations occur , as above, it is the parents that need to either take the child out of the situation, and/or(preferably later), teach them the right behavior. To be honest, most two year olds could care less if they offend others. It is just the nature of being that age group. We personally love little ones but it was unfair to that kiddo and the other adults around him to put him in that situation.
Linda

[caviargal]

[quote name='RuthC'][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=royalblue][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=royalblue]It's the parents' responsibility to deal with it promptly, no matter where it happens. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

And therein lies the problem. Some parents are either oblivious or uncaring. We stack the deck as best we can by choosing later dining times and making it clear to the manager of the PG or any restaurant we go to that we are not willing to be seated near families. We have friends and family who we will not go out to dinner with because their children are allowed to be loud and run wild in restaurants. The parents find it cute - in the first case - or are too interested in their own enjoyment of their meal (second case) to be concerned with other diners. We go to dinner with them when they can get a sitter.

It is not my concern if some parents find this offensive. We are paying for a nice dining experience and on some lines we cruise we only dine in the extra charge restaurants specifically to avoid children. This is one big reason we tend to chose adult only AIs for vacation...we are guaranteed to be in adult company.

[cccole]

Maybe they could have a standard of behavior rather than an age limit. Then both children and adults could be asked to leave if their behavior was inappropriate for the environment. It seems that there are posters who have been around horrendous adults and posters who have been around horrendous children. No one should have to endure the extremely intrusive behavior in either age group. Neither age group should be permitted to remain in an area where their behavior is unacceptable. Adults do not have to be laying on the floor in a full-out temper tantrum to be unpleasant to the diners around them. Cherie

[kryos]

[quote name='AerynSun_JohnCrighton']uggg! A few weeks ago I was in mcdonald's... and there was a screaming child.. would NOT shut-up..

I had a headache by the time they left... the mom did NOTHING just ignored the child and got her stuff...[/QUOTE]
I hate to say this, but it was, after all, a MacDonald's. I don't know if I would worry about a screaming child in a place like that either. I don't consider MacDonald's to be a true restaurant, and the sort of behavior I would consider "acceptable" there is different than what I would consider it to be in a non-fast food restaurant ... such as Olive Garden, Red Lobster or Outback.

MacDonald's isn't a problem because I, too, can grab my food and go. I don't have to eat it there. So I am not subject to that screaming child for any length of time. But in a regular restaurant I'm stuck listening to the wailing kid for a good hour or more if mom or dad doesn't shut her up. :(

Blue skies ...

--rita

[RuthC]

[quote name='kryos']I hate to say this, but it was, after all, a MacDonald's. I don't know if I would worry about a screaming child in a place like that either. [/quote]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=royalblue]But when you focus on the nature of the restaurant, rather than the behavior of the child, you are focusing on the wrong thing. It's the standard of how you behave in civilized society that needs to be consistent---not the standard of dining facility. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#4169e1]Children don't need mixed messages. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#4169e1][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#4169e1]Children learn how to behave by having consistent rules to follow. Knowing that they have to use "inside voices", stay at their table, not throw things, is the same "rule" to live by no matter what restaurant they are in. They can understand that. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#4169e1][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#4169e1]What they can't understand is why one restaurant has different "rules of behavior" than another. They don't know the difference in the quality of the food! Or the price! [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#4169e1]They know they are out to eat, so "out to eat" rules apply. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

[quote name='kryos']I hate to say this, but it was, after all, a MacDonald's. I don't know if I would worry about a screaming child in a place like that either. I don't consider MacDonald's to be a true restaurant, and the sort of behavior I would consider "acceptable" there is different than what I would consider it to be in a non-fast food restaurant ... such as Olive Garden, Red Lobster or Outback.

MacDonald's isn't a problem because I, too, can grab my food and go. I don't have to eat it there. So I am not subject to that screaming child for any length of time. But in a regular restaurant I'm stuck listening to the wailing kid for a good hour or more if mom or dad doesn't shut her up. :(

Blue skies ...

--rita[/QUOTE]

My parents would not have let me get away w/ it in McDonald's either..

the point is, ANY child who screams and throws a fit, is acting like a spoiled brat used to getting their own way... they HAVE to learn the word 'NO' and that they can't do that.. other wise they will end up in jail somewhere down the road, or at least in trouble w/ the law cause they have NO RESPECT for authority.

[world~citizen]

[quote name='AerynSun_JohnCrighton']My parents would not have let me get away w/ it in McDonald's either..

the point is, ANY child who screams and throws a fit, is acting like a spoiled brat used to getting their own way... they HAVE to learn the word 'NO' and that they can't do that.. other wise they will end up in jail somewhere down the road, or at least in trouble w/ the law cause they have NO RESPECT for authority.[/quote]

Yes, but I think more to the point, is the PG the proper venue for "on the job training"?

[tchix]

[quote name='CowPrincess']

I don't see anyone in this thread bullying anyone else. I see varied opinions, not all of which are consistent with yours.

.. My issue is with the [B]parents [/B]who allow the unruly, disruptive, brattish behaviour to impinge on everyone else's enjoyment. And as I can never tell who those parents are until the tantrum/screaming/shrieking/crying STARTS, it makes for a much more pleasant evening or event for me to avoid the groups that include children.

Again, I did not develop this opinion in a vacuum -- I've had out of control children and adjourned parents inflicted on me far too often.

.[/QUOTE]

Cow Princess- I do respect your opinion, sorry if that did not appear to be the case. In fact, I think you and I are more on the same page than you think, really. You said that because you prefer to avoid children with meltdowns (and you don't know who that will be) YOU avoid groups including children. I totally respect that, and even encourage it- as I said in my original post, I think people who say they don't want to be around children on vacation or don't want to eat with them, should pick venues and vacations that do not allow children.

However, that is not HAL. Nor is it the Pinnacle Grill, the trivia games, the late seating at the dining room, etc. But based on the responses here (to a poster who just wanted to know what the costs were for children at the PG, not whether or not others thought taking kids to the PG was ok), and other threads , several posters who share your view do not share your sense of responsibility for themselves. Instead of choosing vacations and venues without kids or to remove themselves from the situation, these posters tell others that children should not be brought to the PG, participate in trivia and other activities, etc.

It's up to HAL, not you, to determine what venues are "appropriate" for kids.

If you read many of these types of threads, you will see that there are several posts from first-time or prospective cruisers and other parents who are really upset because they think everyone who sails on HAL thinks children are not welcome there. That's what I mean by bullying, and I have no apologies about putting out the view that that is not really the case.

[world~citizen]

[quote name='tchix']Cow Princess- I do respect your opinion, sorry if that did not appear to be the case. In fact, I think you and I are more on the same page than you think, really. You said that because you prefer to avoid children with meltdowns (and you don't know who that will be) YOU avoid groups including children. I totally respect that, and even encourage it- as I said in my original post, I think people who say they don't want to be around children on vacation or don't want to eat with them, should pick venues and vacations that do not allow children.

However, that is not HAL. Nor is it the Pinnacle Grill, the trivia games, the late seating at the dining room, etc. But based on the responses here (to a poster who just wanted to know what the costs were for children at the PG, not whether or not others thought taking kids to the PG was ok), and other threads , several posters who share your view do not share your sense of responsibility for themselves. Instead of choosing vacations and venues without kids or to remove themselves from the situation, these posters tell others that children should not be brought to the PG, participate in trivia and other activities, etc.

It's up to HAL, not you, to determine what venues are "appropriate" for kids.

If you read many of these types of threads, you will see that there are several posts from first-time or prospective cruisers and other parents who are really upset because they think everyone who sails on HAL thinks children are not welcome there. That's what I mean by bullying, and I have no apologies about putting out the view that that is not really the case.[/quote]

Interesting (partial) tactical retreat.:D

I have seen people discuss their different views in this thread, but I really don't see any evidence of a bully or bullies in here. I note some posts seem more aggressive than others, but I don't see bullying.

Yes it is true that HAL sets PG policy. So what's new here? HAL sets all policy. Just about every policy that HAL sets is discussed and even debated on these boards. The cruise lines monitor these boards - and in my humble opinion, the cruise experience is the better for it.

No one is "telling" anyone that children should not be in the PG. They are discussing the issue broadly, and if I may say to the posters here, for the most part in a [I]sincere[/I] and [I]thoughtful[/I] way.

Compliments to all.

I don't agree with everyone of course, but I do appreciate and respect the various opinions.

Smooth sailing to you.

[CocoKai]

Every single person on here who is posting "for" or "against" children in the PG has laid on the floor, kicked and screamed, turned red and threw a fit. Were you all obnoxious brats?

No, you were a child and that is how a child expresses their frustration and emotions until they learn and gain maturity to be more contained....guided by a parent. Personally, I wouldn't take a child in this age group to the PG. As an adult, you never know when one of these explosive episodes can occur. Something might drop into their milk and all sense of rationality can be lost in a second. These children you see are not brats. They are children, being children and moving on the path to adulthood.

The easy solution.....everyone pays the $30 cover and orders off the PG menu.

[AerynSun_JohnCrighton]

[quote name='CocoKai']Every single person on here who is posting "for" or "against" children in the PG has laid on the floor, kicked and screamed, turned red and threw a fit. Were you all obnoxious brats?

.[/QUOTE]


Yes, I was. Mom can tell you, I was one of those that took time to train... I was spoiled...

there is a difference between a child crying and one screaming loud enough to break glass and making a spectule of themselves...

one is normal..the one should be delt with...asap!

[iceman93]

Ten-thousand :thumbsup: to tchix. You have explained (very eloquently, I might add, even in the face of multiple attacks) exactly how I also feel about this issue. And I applaud you for not backing down or watering down your opinions (I don't know what that was about a "tactical retreat"??).

We can all agree to disagree, but I will no more sit silently by while a few people here rail against the behavior of children and their negelctful parents than they will apparently admit that there are well-behaved children in this world and that some of them may actually behave perfectly well in a nice environment like the Pinnacle Grill.