Passenger services act

[Cuizer2]

These are two completely different cruises... one doesn't affect the other. Carnival is correct.

This could be ten different cruises over a period of 75 days. None of that matters. It is still a foreign flagged ship taking a passenger from one US port to another US port without stopping a a distant foreign port first. Thus while each cruise individually is perfectly fine, the combination of the two ends up being a violation of the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

There is no problem with this.... The problem would be if the cruise to Hawaii started from Seattle.... The cruise to Hawaii begins in Vancouver which is a foreign port....

 

I believe where you are seeing a problem is on the first leg of your trip... Sea to GB to Van.... This would not fall under the closed loop cruise.... Being you are an Aussie you would not be affected.... US Citizens would be required to travel WITH Passports since the cruise is not returning to Seattle...

 

I don't know if this helps you understand any better but you should have no problem......

 

Joey

There is no problem with either cruise in of itself. The combination of the two is the problem. A foreign flagged ship cannot transport people (of any nation) between two US ports without stopping a distant foreign port first.

[Cuizer2]

I'd be curious as to who these "other individuals" are who are telling you you cannot do it.

 

Under current regulations, these are legal itineraries, but there are lobbying efforts (primarily initiated by NCL America) to put an end to sailings such as the Vancouver-Hawaii and Ensenada-Hawaii routes.

 

The link below is from December 2007, so to date, nothing has happened that would change the legal status of the sailings.

 

http://www.cruiseco.com/Resources/cabotage%202008.htm

 

The people who are saying this cannot be done are correct, and those who say it can be do not fully understand the PVSA. The article you quoted has nothing to do with a passenger who starts in Seattle and then stays on the same ship eventually departing in Honolulu. Here is a link to the PVSA ...

 

http://www.trans-inst.org/3.html

 

No foreign vessel shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 for each passenger so transported and landed.

 

The only change is now the fine is $300.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/passenger-cruise.htm

 

The Passenger Vessel Services Act has not been interpreted to restrict domestic port calls as long as the domestic port call is part of a trip that includes foreign destinations and the U.S. port calls are intermediary stops. This means that foreign-flagged vessels are currently entitled to make as many U.S. port calls as they choose, provided that these calls are part of an international route and that passengers who embark at a U.S. port do not permanently disembark at a different U.S. port. Additionally, the U.S. Customs Service has interpreted the Passenger Vessel Services Act to allow a foreign vessel to make as many intermediary U.S. port calls as it chooses, and disembark passengers at a different U.S. port, as long as the vessel makes a port call at a distant foreign port such as Aruba.

 

 

Under the U.S. Passenger Services Act (PSA) of 1886 and the Jones Act, only U.S.-built and -operated ships may embark and debark passengers between U.S. ports. Foreign passenger ships can stop at any number of U.S. ports but passengers must re-board the ship before it leaves port. This has required some rather creative logistics to enable foreign ships to cruise Hawaii economically.

[Cuizer2]

If Carnival is saying it's OK.. I would go ahead and trust Carnival on this. Besides, they would be the one paying a fine if it was not ok, not you.

Carnival would eventually catch this and cancel one of the cruises. Also, while it is true that Carnival would be fined, Carnival would pass that fine onto the passenger.

[Cuizer2]

A person can not book this as one cruise.... It is 2 different cruises... I.E. Sea to GB to Van is one cruise... The second cruise starts from Van to Hawaii.... Where's the problem????...

 

Just because the OP is on the same ship for both sailings it isn't the same as begining your sail in Sea and ending in Hawaii....

 

Carnival moved to Seattle to help those cruisers who for one reason or another do not have a passport.... They will still be able to do an Alaska cruise (inside Passage and back) without it.... Crossing into Canada to board a cruise ship requires a Passport or a Passcard....

 

Sounds as though someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill.....:confused:

 

Joey

 

The PVSA does not apply to "cruises", it applies to ships. A foreign flagged ship cannot transport passengers between two US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. The PVSA does not care if it is one cruise, twenty cruises or not a cruise at all. A foreign cargo ship on a commercial cargo run, stopping at the same ports, would also be in violation of the PVSA if it allowed a person or persons (from any country) to board the ship in Seattle and disembark in Honolulu.

[Cuizer2]

I do beleive it is a foreign port, not distant foreign port. Miami to Nassau is a prime example. The distance between the to is not far at all, so it wouldn 't qualify as a "distant, foreign" port, but yet there are many, many, many sailings from Miami to Bahamas weekly!!!!

The Bahamas is not part of the United States. Therefore, a cruise from the United States to the Bahamas is not subject to the restriction of the PVSA, as it is not a cruise between two US ports.

[Cuizer2]

Sounds to me like you got your definate answer from Carnival. Based on what you said they are not going to book/schedule you on a cruise that you can not legally take.

Carnival would eventually catch the violation and cancel one of the cruises.

[Cuizer2]

There are two ways around this problem:

 

1) Book a different ship for the Alaska cruise. The PSVA applies to the ship, not multiple ships.

 

2) Continue on the cruise from Hawaii to Ensenada. Then the ship is transporting you from Seattle to Ensenada, which is perfectly fine under the PVSA.

[salty dingo]

The thing that makes it all legal is that there are two different cruises, both of which do not by themselves present a problem. If there were just one 19 day cruise then it would not be legal.

 

However, the B2B passengers will end their first cruise, and will have to disembark. Their luggage can remain, but they will be booted off the ship. End of cruise.

 

Now fast forward a few minutes and begin the next cruise. You embark like everyone else (but you'll be first in line).

 

Two cruises not one. No problem with the laws.

[maxamuus]

The exact working says =

 

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 for each passenger so transported and landed.

[Cuizer2]

The thing that makes it all legal is that there are two different cruises, both of which do not by themselves present a problem. If there were just one 19 day cruise then it would not be legal.

 

However, the B2B passengers will end their first cruise, and will have to disembark. Their luggage can remain, but they will be booted off the ship. End of cruise.

 

Now fast forward a few minutes and begin the next cruise. You embark like everyone else (but you'll be first in line).

 

Two cruises not one. No problem with the laws.

This is not correct. The PVSA applies to ships, not to cruises. The combination of the two is a violation of the PVSA.

[candigirl41]

This is very interesting. I would like to know what the correct answer is. If you had to visit a distant foreign port how would they do the 3 days cruises to Ensenada? It is not very distant from San Diego or Los Angeles. I was also under the impression that if you debarked and got off the ship you were done and could therefore start a new cruise.

 

Candi

[Cuizer2]

This is very interesting. I would like to know what the correct answer is. If you had to visit a distant foreign port how would they do the 3 days cruises to Ensenada? It is not very distant from San Diego or Los Angeles. I was also under the impression that if you debarked and got off the ship you were done and could therefore start a new cruise.

 

Candi

 

A three day cruise to Ensenada, and in fact most cruises, begin and end at the SAME port. Thus the ship is not transporting passengers between two US cities. When the cruise begins and ends at the same US port, if the ship makes any port calls between those the beginning and end, then the ship must stop at at least one foreign port - any foreign port. That is why all the round trips from Seattle make at least one stop in Canada. It is also why all the one way cruises begin or end in Vancouver.

 

The "distant" foreign port requirement only applies to cruises between two US cities, such as the repositioning cruises from the Caribbean to Alaska and back. The distant foreign port requirement does not apply to "closed loop" cruises (cruises that begin and end in the same city).

[maxamuus]

This is very interesting. I would like to know what the correct answer is. If you had to visit a distant foreign port how would they do the 3 days cruises to Ensenada? It is not very distant from San Diego or Los Angeles. I was also under the impression that if you debarked and got off the ship you were done and could therefore start a new cruise.

 

Candi

 

Im not sure where this distant foriegn port thing came from?? When i googled the name passenger services act and read the exact wording it said no such thing.

 

It wouldnt apply to the Mexico cruises because you return to the same port. It comes into play going from one us port ie. Seattle to another US port ie Honolulu.

 

This applies to Airlines as well. Qantas used to fly from JFK to LAX to Sydney. You could buy a ticket from JFK to Sydney or LAX to Sydney but Quantas could sell tickets from JFK to LAX as those are within the US.

[Cuizer2]

Im not sure where this distant foriegn port thing came from. When i googled the name and read the exact wording it said no such thing.

 

It wouldnt apply to the Mexico cruises because you return to the same port. It comes into play going from one us port ie. Seattle to another US port ie Honolulu.

 

This applies to Airlines as well. Qantas used to fly from JFK to LAX to Sydney. You could buy a ticket from JFK to Sydney or LAX to Sydney but Quantas could sell tickets from JFK to LAX as those are within the US.

 

http://www.trans-inst.org/3.html

 

There are, however, certain exceptions to the prohibition on the use of foreign vessels to transport passengers in the U.S. domestic trades. For example, the Virgin Islands are exempt from U.S. cabotage laws until declared otherwise by presidential proclamation (46 App. U.S.C. 877). Foreign vessels may transport passengers between Puerto Rico and ports in the United States, provided that there is no eligible U.S. vessel offering such service (46 U.S.C. 289c). There is no violation of U.S. cabotage law in cases where passengers board a non-coastwise qualified vessel at one U.S. port and disembark (at the conclusion of the voyage) at another U.S. port, as long as the vessel makes an intermediate stop at a "distant foreign port" (19 CFR 4.80a).

 

 

The U.S. Customs Service, the agency responsible for interpreting U.S. cabotage laws, has ruled that foreign-flag cruise vessels may carry passengers on so-called "cruises to nowhere" (cruises that begin and end at the same U.S. port and do not touch any other port, U.S. or foreign) without violating the Passenger Vessel Services Act, since such voyages do not entail transportation between U.S. ports or places. Taking advantage of this ruling, numerous foreign-flag gaming vessels are operating in the lucrative and expanding U.S. cruise-to-nowhere market.

[salty dingo]

This is not correct. The PVSA applies to ships, not to cruises. The combination of the two is a violation of the PVSA.

I respectfully disagree. Once the cruise ends, the passenger's relationship with the ship (and the law) ends.

 

When when the next cruise begins, the law applies once again, but the prior cruise is irrelevant at that point.

 

The act does not apply to ships, but to passengers on ships. The passenger is making two, unrelated one-way voyages, which just happen to end and begin on the same day in the same place.

[maxamuus]

Lets all chip in 20 dollars to the OP and get a lawyer.

 

Actually in googling i found this article http://www.sealetter.com/Oct-99/alancol.html Its written by a lawyer and he is unsure what it all means.

[dan40]

If the law is only about vessels and not about cruises or trips, then if I boarded the 'Scow of the Ocean' in Miami, sailed to Nassau, debarked, spent the weekend in Nassau and again boarded the SotO and it went to Port Canaveral, I would violate the PVSA?

[Cuizer2]

I respectfully disagree. Once the cruise ends, the passenger's relationship with the ship (and the law) ends.

 

When when the next cruise begins, the law applies once again, but the prior cruise is irrelevant at that point.

 

The act does not apply to ships, but to passengers on ships. The passenger is making two, unrelated one-way voyages, which just happen to end and begin on the same day in the same place.

 

The law applies to the ship, not the passenger. It is the ship that must comply with the law, not the passenger. It is Carnival that will end up being fined, by the government, not the passenger. Carnival will attempt to pass this fine off to the passenger via their credit card.

 

However, the PVSA applies to the ship, not to the number of cruises. The combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA. Carnival will catch this and will cancel one of the cruises.

[joebat1]

Book it ~~!!~~ Carnival has some high priced lawyers on their payroll...

Carnival knows the law.......

[Cuizer2]

If the law is only about vessels and not about cruises or trips, then if I boarded the 'Scow of the Ocean' in Miami, sailed to Nassau, debarked, spent the weekend in Nassau and again boarded the SotO and it went to Port Canaveral, I would violate the PVSA?

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=776977

[Cuizer2]

Book it ~~!!~~ Carnival has some high priced lawyers on their payroll...

Carnival knows the law.......

 

Yes, Carnival knows the law. The PVP representative that the OP spoke to does not. Carnival would catch this an cancel one of the cruises. The combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA.

[maxamuus]

I think we can all agree its a stupid out dated law that needs to be thrown out. It would actually spur more visits to US ports without it. If the cruiselines could sail the coasts you know they would.

 

Imagine a NYC>Washington DC>Richmond>Hilton Head>Savannah>Charleston>Fort Lauderdale cruise. That would totally rock and would book it in a second (In March of course)

[dan40]

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=776977

 

 

Thank you, Thank you!! Which of those 396 posts were you referring to????

[Cuizer2]

Thank you, Thank you!! Which of those 396 posts were you referring to????

Read the whole thing - I have.