Passenger services act

[Cuizer2]

I assume that you are a maritime attorney with your advice. Thank goodness you are not my maritime attorney because you are completely incorrect.

 

The OP is booking two separate voyages.

 

There is no issue.

 

The PVSA does not apply to cruises, it applies to ships. One foreign SHIP cannot transport a person from one US city to another US city without stopping at a distant foreign port. It does not matter how many "cruises" are involved. The combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

Too many chiefs applauding the song (the words in the rule) and missing the sermon (the correct interpretation). The cruises are good--enjoy. ;)

Each individual cruise is fine. It is the combination of the two that is not.

[Cuizer2]

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/aprqtr/pdf/19cfr4.80a.pdf

 

(4) Embark means a passenger boarding

a vessel for the duration of a specific

voyage and disembark means a passenger

leaving a vessel at the conclusion

of a specific voyage. The terms embark

and disembark are not applicable

to a passenger going ashore temporarily

at a coastwise port who reboards

the vessel and departs with it on sailing

from the port.

 

Note the reference to the ship, and not to a "cruise" or the number of cruises.

[Cuizer2]

Thankyou all for your input. I am waiting for replies from CCL and out TA. I would rather call but I don't have a phone # can any-one help there. If we can not do this as a B2B I will have to change our Alaskan cruise from the 9/7/2010 and do the one before on the 8/31/2010 which is Seattle to Seattle then spend a few day's in Seattle and up to Vancouver then reboard the Spirit for the Hawaiian leg on the 9/14/2010. I did not realise I would open such a can of worms. But thankyou all so much for your concern and help. But in the end my question was not answered unless you are a maritime lawyer.;)

 

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/aprqtr/pdf/19cfr4.80a.pdf

 

(d) The owner or charterer of a foreign

vessel or any other interested person

may request from Headquarters,

U.S. Customs Service, Attention:

Entry Procedures and Carriers Branch,

an advisory ruling as to whether a contemplated

voyage would be considered

to be coastwise transportation in violation

of 46 U.S.C. 289. Such a request

shall be filed in accordance with the

provisions of part 177, Customs Regulations

(19 CFR part 177).

[aussie2324]

I spoke to Carnivals International Reservations Department. And they say that the B2B cruise can be done.

[trock]

Expecting to get the facts from this thread is like believing that everything you read on Wikipedia is fact. So much mis-information and personal opinion based on nothing.:p

 

 

OT

 

I am sorry, who is Boo?

:(

[Traveler353]

Boo is my cat of 13 years. My best buddy. She is an island girl from the Dominica Republic and lived the first 4 years of her life on a sail boat with me sailing the Caribean and western South America. She died of terminal cancer. I know it is kind of sappy but she is greatly missed.

[trock]

Boo is my cat of 13 years. My best buddy. She is an island girl from the Dominica Republic and lived the first 4 years of her life on a sail boat with me sailing the Caribean and western South America. She died of terminal cancer. I know it is kind of sappy but she is greatly missed.

 

 

OMGGGGGGGGG I asked because my cat is named Boo!!! and he is 12 yrs old!!!!!!

I am so sorry!!!

[Guest TropicOne]

The Passenger Vessel Services Act says that any ship sailing a loop cruise from an American port (sailing from and returning to same port) must visit a foreign port. Any foreign country, and Canada qualifies. But any cruise between different American ports (Seattle and Hawaii) must visit a distant foreign port, and Canada does not qualify as a distant port. EM

 

They want to book two separate cruises, not one continuous one.

[smeyer418]

The regs on this are actually pretty clear. Its considered one continuous voyage on the same ship. So Seattle to Vancouver and then immediately on the same ship Vancouver to Hawaii are NOT allowed. What has happened in the past before the government got so touchy about names would be that you could use slightly different names and hometowns but with the newer requirements this becomes difficult.

If Carnival allows the booking I wouldn't say no but the probability is that you may get a call canceling one section. Is there another ship that you can take on the first leg and then make the Hawaii run? If you do this on different ships/cruise lines than its ok...

 

It doesn't matter how its booked...its the reality that counts you are on the ship from Seattle to Hawaii and without a distant foreign port in between its not allowed....

[Traveler353]

Thanks, trock

[BigDfromTN]

Technically speaking your combined itinerary is Seattle to Honolulu. You cannot do that, even with a "stop" in Vancouver, BC. If the ship were to leave on a different day, or if you were on two different cruise lines, then you would be allowed.

David

 

ACTUALLY this is not correct. He is doing 2 sailing and will have to disembark and re-enter the ship with a new S&S card.

 

OP, Go for it. You are fine.

[Cuizer2]

ACTUALLY this is not correct. He is doing 2 sailing and will have to disembark and re-enter the ship with a new S&S card.

 

OP, Go for it. You are fine.

 

There is no question that the combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA. Sometime prior to the cruise the OP can expect a call notifying him that (s)he cannot combine the two cruises.

[nrdsb4]

There is no question that the combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA. Sometime prior to the cruise the OP can expect a call notifying him that (s)he cannot combine the two cruises.

 

 

I'm wondering who checks for compliance with this law. Someone is scouring the manifests of ships to look for people violating the PVSA?

 

In this thread you've got two opposing camps insisting they are right. If it were me and my vacation dollar, I'd probably take the safe vs. sorry route and just book a different ship for the second cruise.

[smeyer418]

I'm wondering who checks for compliance with this law. Someone is scouring the manifests of ships to look for people violating the PVSA?

 

In this thread you've got two opposing camps insisting they are right. If it were me and my vacation dollar, I'd probably take the safe vs. sorry route and just book a different ship for the second cruise.

The Coast Guard and the DHS enforce this. The full manifest has to be sent to DHS before the ship sails(from the US) or enters US ports. Besides the penalty of $300 per person, the Coast Guard can bar the ship and cruise line from entering any US port...do you think the cruise line can take that risk?

[Traveler353]

There is no question that the combination of the two cruises is a violation of the PVSA. Sometime prior to the cruise the OP can expect a call notifying him that (s)he cannot combine the two cruises.

 

Actualy there is a huge question as to the legality of this. Especialy as no one here has a clue as to what they are talking about, only voicing personal opinion. Repeating the same thing over and over does not make it fact.

[smeyer418]

ACTUALLY this is not correct. He is doing 2 sailing and will have to disembark and re-enter the ship with a new S&S card.

 

OP, Go for it. You are fine.

you can call them two sailings but its considered one continuous trip for PVSA purposes. What would stop any cruise line from calling one leg a three day and the other a two day and sailing to the Bahamas and then to any other US port....the regs consider this one continuous trip.

[notme1955]

...Coast Guard can bar the ship and cruise line from entering any US port...do you think the cruise line can take that risk?

 

If that's truly the penalty, then why hasn't Carnival taken steps to protect their interests?

 

It just seems really odd to me that Carnival would have these two cruises set up they way they do if it's impossible to sell them as a B2B. It makes no sense.

 

It also makes no sense that Carnival's computer system would allow a PVP to book both cruises as a B2B when it's illegal to do so. Nor does it make sense that the PVP's wouldn't have any idea that this particular B2B would be illegal. As an employee, I've always been made aware of the things that were illegal. Especially of those things that could cause serious harm to my employer.

[smeyer418]

If that's truly the penalty, then why hasn't Carnival taken steps to protect their interests?

 

It just seems really odd to me that Carnival would have these two cruises set up they way they do if it's impossible to sell them as a B2B. It makes no sense.

 

It also makes no sense that Carnival's computer system would allow a PVP to book both cruises as a B2B when it's illegal to do so. Nor does it make sense that the PVP's wouldn't have any idea that this particular B2B would be illegal. As an employee, I've always been made aware of the things that were illegal. Especially of those things that could cause serious harm to my employer.

do you think the computer has programmed every possible violation? I don't. The fact that it can be booked doesn't mean that someone will look at it later and say it can't be done. It will surely be caught before the cruise. As I said before, TA's used to use initials in stead of a full name on one leg and then the full name with a different address and sometimes a different DOB but current rules makes this much more difficult. What the original poster describes is definitely a violation....but the poster can take a chance and see what happens...expect a call and maybe they will arrange something....

 

BTW in modern times the penalty of baring has never been used. If however the cruise line started booking these trips in violation of the law they might be. The cruise lines are VERY deligent in not knowingly violating the rules. NCL paid over a million dollars(for its non Us Flagged ship) in fines for not making it to Fanning island from Hawaii because of medical/mechanical issues.

[notme1955]

...do you think the computer has programmed every possible violation?

 

For something with the serious ramifications to Carnival that were noted?

 

Yes. The computer should be programmed to catch it. At the very least Carnival PVP's should be aware that this is illegal. If they're allowing people to book this as a B2B only to cancel later, they're going to have a lot of very uhnappy customers. To take it a step further, Carnival should not have the ships schedule the way it is in the first place.

 

As stated earlier, it makes absolutely no sense.

 

I suspect that Carnival has already looked into the problem and has the proper permissions.

[kdr69]

This could be ten different cruises over a period of 75 days. None of that matters. It is still a foreign flagged ship taking a passenger from one US port to another US port without stopping a a distant foreign port first. Thus while each cruise individually is perfectly fine, the combination of the two ends up being a violation of the PVSA.

It is two separate cruises period not one long cruise. On our Hawaii to Vancouver trip many aussies went on to do the Vancouver Alaska on the same ship. The Fire and Ice cruise as it is known is very popular. Based on your assumption this would not be possible as it would technically be Hawaii to Alaska Cruise going by your criteria.

[Cuizer2]

It is two separate cruises period not one long cruise. On our Hawaii to Vancouver trip many aussies went on to do the Vancouver Alaska on the same ship. The Fire and Ice cruise as it is known is very popular. Based on your assumption this would not be possible as it would technically be Hawaii to Alaska Cruise going by your criteria.

The combination of the two cruises listed the the OP is clearly a violation of the PVSA. Making it two cruises instead of one long one does not change that fact.

[Cuizer2]

For something with the serious ramifications to Carnival that were noted?

 

Yes. The computer should be programmed to catch it. At the very least Carnival PVP's should be aware that this is illegal. If they're allowing people to book this as a B2B only to cancel later, they're going to have a lot of very uhnappy customers. To take it a step further, Carnival should not have the ships schedule the way it is in the first place.

 

As stated earlier, it makes absolutely no sense.

 

I suspect that Carnival has already looked into the problem and has the proper permissions.

You are assuming some computer programmer even knows about the PVSA, let along understands it.

[smeyer418]

It is two separate cruises period not one long cruise. On our Hawaii to Vancouver trip many aussies went on to do the Vancouver Alaska on the same ship. The Fire and Ice cruise as it is known is very popular. Based on your assumption this would not be possible as it would technically be Hawaii to Alaska Cruise going by your criteria.

not unless the ship overnights in Vancouver.

[RatherBFishin]

You are assuming some computer programmer even knows about the PVSA, let along understands it.

 

On behalf of all the other Programmers, leave us out of the discussion.

 

Clearly any shortcomings in the operation of the system are due to lack of adequate specs, or insufficient testing. Therefore you'd have to blame either the Business Analysts or QA department!