Sexual Assaults on the High Sea

[nolaAlive]

You're not in Heaven yet -it's just a cruise..nothing more

 

Street Smarts = Ship Smarts (same thing, huh?)

 

.

 

ss=ss? NO. on the street, would you casually be seated with strangers at diiner? on a cruise, is it not customary to introduce yourself to everyone at the table? two entirely different environments. one of many examples.

 

on land, police and hospitals are often available. ditto with rape kits and people with enough training to use them.

 

this is not necessarily the case on ships.

 

do you have a problem with requiring rape kits and training on how to use them on a ship?

[nealstuber]

You know you picked on semantics and one sentence...ok call it a town, who cares....the point is that many crew are from cultures that accept that young girls are well let's say....marriage material.

 

That is a basic sociological fact in some cultures so by my stating it does not mean that I disllike someone from that particular culture.

 

I picked on just one of the many exagerations in your post. This entire issue has been exagerated - to the point where it has generated an ACT OF CONGRESS.

 

So, while our economy deteriorates, creating more poverty (which surely leads to many more situations that could lead to sexual assault) and while the likes of Kim Jong Il and Ahmadinejad grow bolder (running wild) - our government is screwing around with this - becuase of our exagerated perception.

[Crusin6]

I picked on just one of the many exagerations in your post. This entire issue has been exagerated - to the point where it has generated an ACT OF CONGRESS.

 

So, while our economy deteriorates, creating more poverty (which surely leads to many more situations that could lead to sexual assault) and while the likes of Kim Jong Il and Ahmadinejad grow bolder (running wild) - our government is screwing around with this - becuase of our exagerated perception.

I understand that you, like most of us, are concerned about what is going on around us. However, the post you refer to contains no exagerations.

I will agree that 3000 makes a town not a city , ok?

 

However, the Carnival story is true and has been reported....and it happened several years ago...so it may not be front page news anymore...but it was reported on a hour long news show...the parents were interviewed...and the 12 yo in question is now in her early 20's.

 

Finally, yes, and you may not want to believe it, and I personally am appalled by it, but there are some countries that still practice "child brides" That being said, the correlation of that to some crew members is that they may be from those nations, thus, a young girl, who is called "jailbait" in our society, is not regarded the same way in other cultures.

 

This has always been my main issue with letting kids have free roam of the ship, be it day or night. Staying in a group, as my kids are their own group, has been our motto. It also doesn't thrill me that certain crew members can have access to my kids rooms, i.e maintenance, and that is the basis for our only getting connecting rooms.

 

So, while it doesn't really matter what any of us think or how we travel or how we choose to raise our families, if a parent wants to supervise the security of their children, they should be applauded. Our family has had many wonderful vacations and we do not consider using common sense and caution to be aproblem , be it home, school, travel........

[Crusin6]

ss=ss? NO. on the street, would you casually be seated with strangers at diiner? on a cruise, is it not customary to introduce yourself to everyone at the table? two entirely different environments. one of many examples.

 

on land, police and hospitals are often available. ditto with rape kits and people with enough training to use them.

 

this is not necessarily the case on ships.

 

do you have a problem with requiring rape kits and training on how to use them on a ship?

Nola,

thank you for your voice of reason.

[nealstuber]

I understand that you, like most of us, are concerned about what is going on around us. However, the post you refer to contains no exagerations.

I will agree that 3000 makes a town not a city , ok?

 

However, the Carnival story is true and has been reported....and it happened several years ago...so it may not be front page news anymore...but it was reported on a hour long news show...the parents were interviewed...and the 12 yo in question is now in her early 20's.

 

Finally, yes, and you may not want to believe it, and I personally am appalled by it, but there are some countries that still practice "child brides" That being said, the correlation of that to some crew members is that they may be from those nations, thus, a young girl, who is called "jailbait" in our society, is not regarded the same way in other cultures.

 

This has always been my main issue with letting kids have free roam of the ship, be it day or night. Staying in a group, as my kids are their own group, has been our motto. It also doesn't thrill me that certain crew members can have access to my kids rooms, i.e maintenance, and that is the basis for our only getting connecting rooms.

 

So, while it doesn't really matter what any of us think or how we travel or how we choose to raise our families, if a parent wants to supervise the security of their children, they should be applauded. Our family has had many wonderful vacations and we do not consider using common sense and caution to be aproblem , be it home, school, travel........

 

 

I'm not trying to make light of what happened to a 12 year old 10 years ago. But why does this instance merit an hour long TV special and and ACT OF CONGRESS. This case, like the Natalie Halloway case, has been given EXAGERATED importance because it makes good news. There have been 10s of thousands of rapes and murders all over the word during the past 10 years and these two cases are not any more important than any of them. But the Halloway story has had a devesting impact on Aruba and we now have congress wasting time mandating things that will ultimately cost the cruiser more.

 

Not nearly as dumb as crippling our energy industry in a futile attempt to change the weather - but dumb none-the-less.

[kyrisong1]

If deterrence worked, the US would not have the highest incarceration rate (Parole and Probation included) in the world. Getting caught or identified usually isn't a top priority when a crime is committed for the criminal or perp. The regular Joe and Jane... Yes, but that's not how the criminal mind works. I do agree with being careful, you never know what to expect. I think you're right there.

I agree and the compulsion for sex offenders usually blanks out the sensibility, so I don't think the fear of being caught interfers with the thrill of the chase so to speak.

And for sexual assaults look a the rates of recividism:

Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison –– 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.

JMO

[kyrisong1]

It's not rocket science, just be smart. I didn't like the way some of the officers were openly fraternizing with passengers on Splendor's New Years cruise which I noted in my review on CC when I got back... but in reality it happens and we're naive to think it never does. Regardless though, I think that we can all agree that if people act responsibly the odds of something bad happening to them goes down significantly.

I would like to know what fraternizing with passengers has to do with a sexual assault thread? If they are fraternizing, why would anyone care?

Consenting adults and all?

If it's not illegal why worry about what others are doing?

JMO, Carole

[Crusin6]

I'm not trying to make light of what happened to a 12 year old 10 years ago. But why does this instance merit an hour long TV special and and ACT OF CONGRESS. This case, like the Natalie Halloway case, has been given EXAGERATED importance because it makes good news. There have been 10s of thousands of rapes and murders all over the word during the past 10 years and these two cases are not any more important than any of them. But the Halloway story has had a devesting impact on Aruba and we now have congress wasting time mandating things that will ultimately cost the cruiser more.

 

Not nearly as dumb as crippling our energy industry in a futile attempt to change the weather - but dumb none-the-less.

I can see what you are getting at, and although I do not entirely disagree, my main bone of contention, and that is what I am posting about, is that, IMHO, too many cruisers consider cruise travel to be totally safe and let down their guard.

 

e.g and to preface all in my humble opinion:

1. Too many pax let kids do what they please on ships

2. Too many pax seem to think it is a free for all

3. Too many pax treat crew like dirt...not all..so please don't nitpik

4. My all time favorite.....too many pax seem to become daredevils...climbing balconies...letting their kids do things and go places they would not do at home.....etc.etc.

 

Now many posters have been very logical about this and realize the following:

1. Easy to dispose of a body while on a ship ( as on an island like Aruba as well)

2. Lots of strangers on a ship....for most pax that means about 2994 of the folks on the ship are strangers. Not all of them bad...but just maybe some are bad.

3. From other threads....it has been discussed that not all security is up to par, nor are the Camp crew.

4. and finally, not all cruise ships actually care about pax health or safety ie....fumes on the Glory etc.

 

now when travelling, should we all just make it a free for all? There are facts out there that prove we should not...and that foreign countries do not really care about our welfare...i.e. Natalie..Aruba...The Netherlands.

 

As for the state of the world.....that is not something that any of us can really solve is it? I know I vote and file taxes and live by the letter of the law and properly educate my family and teach them right from wrong....I recycle as well! I also do not go anywhere or do anything that I deem to be unsafe...but I do travel and let my kids use a knife and fork when they eat, but will I let my 14yo run wild and give them a curfew of say 1am while on a cruise ship?...well, I am not stupid. Nor do I want to leave my family to go help others in some far off land, so I guess I am a terrible person. My family is well cared for at home and they will be as well on vacation...land or sea...or theme park.

[nealstuber]

...., my main bone of contention, and that is what I am posting about, is that, IMHO, too many cruisers consider cruise travel to be totally safe and let down their guard.

 

....

 

 

I've been following this issue on this board as close as anyone for the past month, I don't think anyone on these boards considers cruise travel to be "totally safe."

 

Risk is relative and folks who live (or have lived) in actual cities know their kids are at greater risk every day. So I don't begrudge them the opportunity to let their hair down in the relative safety a cruise ship provides.;)

[Kurbanfan]

my main bone of contention, and that is what I am posting about, is that, IMHO, too many cruisers consider cruise travel to be totally safe and let down their guard.

 

 

Yep..........and I have been witness to it many times on our cruises........

[Drew B]

I agree and the compulsion for sex offenders usually blanks out the sensibility, so I don't think the fear of being caught interfers with the thrill of the chase so to speak.

 

This is true of pathological sex offenders, for sure. They will be just as dangerous on a ship as elsewhere. I'm talking, though, more about opportunistic predators who may not have a compulsion, but they may take advantage of an easy target. Just like not every thief is a kleptomaniac, not every sexual predator has a compulsion...

[DocJohnB]

1) I agree that is not appropriate given the position of authority the Congressmen or Senators hold, but I'm not sure it qualifies as "Sexual Assault".

 

 

Ummmm, sure it is. For a couple of reasons.

 

1) Here is a little on requirements for a page: "A prospective school year candidate must be a 16 or 17 year-old high school junior (11th grade), with at least a 3.0 GPA. Summer pages can be either incoming or outgoing juniors and still have a GPA requirement of a 3.0."

 

2) Positional power. A Senator/Congressman holds a lot of sway over a young page. He/she has age, power, wisdom over the page (kid). A 16 or 17 year old is at a distinct disadvantage.

 

If it happens, whether "consensual" or not, it is a sexual assault.

[kyrisong1]

This is true of pathological sex offenders, for sure. They will be just as dangerous on a ship as elsewhere. I'm talking, though, more about opportunistic predators who may not have a compulsion, but they may take advantage of an easy target. Just like not every thief is a kleptomaniac, not every sexual predator has a compulsion...

Pathological or not sex offenders are 5 times more likely to repeat the offense. Opportunistic? what better place than a cruise ship? People let their guard down, lots of kids go about unrestricted, young adults drinking too much, it's a perfect place to have an "opportunity"

I agree they are just as dangerous anywhere, it doesn't matter where they are.

I used to work in medical in a prison and the general feeling of staff in this particular prison was they should all be shipped off alone together because obviously the system isn't working.

[Crusin6]

:confused:

I've been following this issue on this board as close as anyone for the past month, I don't think anyone on these boards considers cruise travel to be "totally safe."

 

Risk is relative and folks who live (or have lived) in actual cities know their kids are at greater risk every day. So I don't begrudge them the opportunity to let their hair down in the relative safety a cruise ship provides.;)

Yes, those of us who actually do live in cities are very much aware of what can happen. For myself....a city of 8 million only 1/2 hour away by train...a city of 1 million on a 15 minute car ride....and a number of small towns...pop. 1000 to 5000 just next door. Do you know where the most teacher pedophiles and sexual offenders do their business? You got it, the smaller...upper middle class suburban middle and high schools! Just read about one indictment this morning...poor teacher..had a cocaine addiction so he had to download child porn to ease his pain!:eek: His pix was very good looking as well..clean cut...mid 30's...every parent's dream:confused:to have teaching their kids! Well not anymore.

 

All I am saying is everyone is a stranger unless you already have a relationship with them that is solid, secure and trustworthy. So no matter where you are, no matter how nice you are treated, no matter how decent a person looks....they are still strangers until you allow yourself to feel differently about them...and fortunately most strangers are good people, kind people, people that you may eventually make friend with......but not all will be that way.......so to be brazen on a cruise ship, note the word brazen, not just being social......may not always lead to a good end.:(

[vi reynolds]

Well, I don't necessarily think that cruises are more dangerous than anywhere else. In fact, it's even possible that since there are normally cameras around that it would be hard for someone to just be dragged into someone else's room. Of course, date-rape is not uncommon in a partying situation, so my advice would be to get to know the person you are flirting with before going into a cabin. However, is someone is determine to groom someone else, they normally use all their charm. Unfortunately, I believe that there would always be people who take advantage of someone who is a bit lonely, a bit drunk or whatever. Some men (thankfully a small minority) don't see women as people but as objects or else they would not attempt anything unconsented.

 

When it comes to children, well, I think sadly the same applies. In many cases, on land or elsewhere, someone takes time to befriend them etc... I guess although caution is needed is hard even for the parents to establish whom to trust. The sad consequence of all this is that if we all get paranoid, we would be unable to establish a new friendship with anyone for fear. I bet even on a sexual/romantic level, statistics would prove that many more people who have met on holiday have gone onto having a healthy romance, or even a consented fling than to be abused/raped but still yes, date rape is a huge problem everywhere, not least because of how hard is for the victim to prove lack of consent and yes, the ships are normally registered in other countries.

[BlueJacketsFan1]

The best thing anyone can do is to use your head. It is like you moved to a new city. You don't know anyone so do be to quick to let down your guard. Simply, don't put yourself in a bad situation. It won't help everytime, but it sure won't hurt. Watch on the ships and see how many kids you see running around by themselves. So many people think, what could happen. A whole lot could happen, you don't know if someone on the ship has a criminal background or not. Just stop and think is the safest bet.

[Crusin6]

Well, I don't necessarily think that cruises are more dangerous than anywhere else. In fact, it's even possible that since there are normally cameras around that it would be hard for someone to just be dragged into someone else's room. Of course, date-rape is not uncommon in a partying situation, so my advice would be to get to know the person you are flirting with before going into a cabin. However, is someone is determine to groom someone else, they normally use all their charm. Unfortunately, I believe that there would always be people who take advantage of someone who is a bit lonely, a bit drunk or whatever. Some men (thankfully a small minority) don't see women as people but as objects or else they would not attempt anything unconsented.

 

When it comes to children, well, I think sadly the same applies. In many cases, on land or elsewhere, someone takes time to befriend them etc... I guess although caution is needed is hard even for the parents to establish whom to trust. The sad consequence of all this is that if we all get paranoid, we would be unable to establish a new friendship with anyone for fear. I bet even on a sexual/romantic level, statistics would prove that many more people who have met on holiday have gone onto having a healthy romance, or even a consented fling than to be abused/raped but still yes, date rape is a huge problem everywhere, not least because of how hard is for the victim to prove lack of consent and yes, the ships are normally registered in other countries.

Agree 100%.......but what I think the real bone of contention regarding cruise ships is the instant lack of sanity that overcomes cruisers...not all of us by any means...but some...and that is where the debate about watching your kids etc. starts.

 

Your point about going into someone's cabin is a good one....and I am thinking along the lines of a crew members cabin as well as another pax cabin. Although the younger one is on a ship the more apt they are to be hit on.....but I understand anyone is susceptible.

 

Everything you have said is what I have been trying to get across here.

 

You know when we travel the last thing on our minds is to go wild......I don't know why but that just doesn't appeal to us as a family....not because we are special......I think it is because we are not looking to leave the world behind, but rather enjoy a family vacation....together. And yes, I know that is not for everyone, but it works for us and as many on these boards have mentioned over and over is that if it works for one cruiser, it doesn't have to work for every person who takes a cruise or vacation.:)

 

Totally agree....but just don't do anything stupid like fall off a balcony because then it affects all of us....and they probably won't be able to find you anyway. No scarcasm intended, just a simple fact. and yes, I know about the one they found clutching a bouy.

[Shallow_Hal]

A little bit bitter are we? You could have said the "Home of a Relative" and been far more accurate...but that wasn't the agenda was it?

 

Well, if your agenda is to be the biggest jerk you can possibly be on this board, I'd like to let you know you are succeeding spectacularly.

[nealstuber]

... It is like you moved to a new city. .....

 

No, its really, really, really not. If you have actually raised kids in an actual city (not lived near) you would know that kids take mass transit to get to city schools, walk halways and take elevators in buildings that often have a higher occupancy rate than any cruise ship.

 

A couple of resturaunts, a casino, bars, a gym, a theater and a pool does not make someplace a "City".

[Dave85]

I would like to know what fraternizing with passengers has to do with a sexual assault thread? If they are fraternizing, why would anyone care?

Consenting adults and all?

If it's not illegal why worry about what others are doing?

JMO, Carole

 

A strict no fraternization policy is in place on Carnival, as well as most major cruise lines. The policy was willfully ignored by some senior officers in a situation where female guests were partaking in lots of alcohol. I felt it was worth mentioning in passing in this thread and back in my review posted in January. I felt it was inappropriate, but other than mentioning it a couple of times on CC I didn't get worked up about it.

 

If you don't think it's a big deal then there is no need for you to respond to my post -- I'll contribute to this board as I see fit. My $.02.

[trock]

No, its really, really, really not. If you have actually raised kids in an actual city (not lived near) you would know that kids take mass transit to get to city schools, walk halways and take elevators in buildings that often have a higher occupancy rate than any cruise ship.

 

A couple of resturaunts, a casino, bars, a gym, a theater and a pool does not make someplace a "City".

 

 

I grew up in NYC... I think when people refer to a cruise ship as a small city.. it's semantics... There is a cross section of people on board who come from all walks of life.

Also Fodors travel guides refer to cruises in the same way..'small city at sea'...

[nealstuber]

I grew up in NYC... I think when people refer to a cruise ship as a small city.. it's semantics... There is a cross section of people on board who come from all walks of life.

Also Fodors travel guides refer to cruises in the same way..'small city at sea'...

 

A lot of our CD's have coined the phrase too. Problem is folks who have not spent a lot of time in a city and view them as very dangerous places believe that cruise ships are just as dangerous because the phrase is so common.

[trock]

A lot of our CD's have coined the phrase too. Problem is folks who have not spent a lot of time in a city and view them as very dangerous places believe that cruise ships are just as dangerous because the phrase is so common.

 

I would imagine a cruise is one of the safest places to vacation.. because really -where would a perp go? Not very far.. .. one should proceed with as much caution as anywhere else they are comfortable with .. I dont feel a need to be extra paranoid... with that said though, i would not let little kids roam on their own.. but that's me (good thing i only have cats.:))

 

Also.. I feel very very very safe in my hometown of NYC.. its a great city and one of the safest!

[meluvtogocruise]

Which is why I cringe when people say they have no problem letting their kids roam the ship unsupervised.

 

I cringed big time...

 

While cruising DH and myself were relaxing by pool one day when a group of young children (8 - 10 years of age) came by asking us to help them with their scavenger hunt. There was no adult supervision. I don't know who sent them on their little hunt but it really bothered me as I watched them go from passenger to passenger.

 

mel

[steveaaaaa]

A lot of our CD's have coined the phrase too. Problem is folks who have not spent a lot of time in a city and view them as very dangerous places believe that cruise ships are just as dangerous because the phrase is so common.

 

When something happens in a city,there are police to assist.Who assists on a ship?

In a city,a report is filed,on a ship they don't want no paperwork.

A city in the US is governed by US laws, a ship registered in a foreign country has few laws.

The city incident must be reported,a ship has no obligation to report even the most minute incident.

 

Steve