Fact checking the art auction.

[Gonzo70]

Here is my take on the Art Auctions: They offer you "free champagne" and then hand out cheap sparkling wine instead. That makes me think that if they subsequently offer me "fine art" they will instead hand me cheap imitation art.

[trajan]

http://cgi.ebay.com/GARY-BENFIELD-Sienna-Nights-LIMITED-EDITION-SERIGRAPH_W0QQitemZ350275549001QQcmdZViewItemQQptZArt_Prints?hash=item518e0cb749

 

OOoooo!!! eBay has the print I was looking for!

 

Hmmm..... it's been so many years...

 

 

 

 

Anyway... look up Park West on the internet and find this as well:

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Art-Galleries/Rip-off-Report-Inves/rip-off-report-investigation-3zc4e.htm

 

 

My experience with the Art Auctions has always been pretty positive. It's not for everyone... While you can go and buy some "Named" artist for a lot of money at a gallery or on a cruise... or you can buy something they have hanging on the wall at Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

 

Whatever floats your boat.

 

Just like you can go to the beach in Cancun and get a nice silver charm for $10, or you can go to Tiffany's and get a nice silver charm for $300.

 

 

I guess buyer's remorse is harder to swallow when you've bought something drawn on a piece of paper.

I remember Park West one cruise was feeding people a story about some Rembrandt etchings they got a hold of. Rembrandt is dead... he made some beautiful paintings... Some gallery got a hold of some of the guy's etchings, made limited copies of them, and sold them through Park West.

I had two words for them:

Ugh and Lee

They wanted, literally, THOUSANDS for these ugly things... They're Rembrandts! A GREAT investment! the auctioneer would say.

 

No. Not for ugly it isn't.

Wow that article strikes me as really sick. Trying to dismiss some of their scams as just being 'buyer remorse' is messed up. You read the complaints posted on Rip-Off prior to that and there are a lot more problems than buyer remorse. That article is like something from the Twilight Zone. Google Park West on their site, read the complaints and then read that article. It sounds like a total white wash. They do little to address any of the real problems.

 

Unfortunately based on my experience Rip-Off Report is a sham. They are a for profit site and they charge a huge fee to join their Corporate Advocacy and Remediation Program. We're talking anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000 http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-02-01/news/the-real-rip-off-report/. The Rip-Off Report passing grade came into being after Park West gave Rip-Off Report thousands of dollars. Prior to this there are pages and pages of complaints and warnings about Park West on Rip-Off Report. Rip-Off Report lists no further complaints after that but you can find numerous complaints around the web and there are still numerous allegations and lawsuits that have come into being since then. Plus there's what I and other posters have observed first hand.

 

Here's an ex RCI employee describing in '09 how she was fired for attempting to help customers who had bought art work from Park West that was fake. Not just over priced. Fake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRk11G8xc8I

[Mack2]

Wow that article strikes me as really sick. Trying to dismiss some of their scams as just being 'buyer remorse' is messed up. You read the complaints posted on Rip-Off prior to that and there are a lot more problems than buyer remorse. That article is like something from the Twilight Zone. Google Park West on their site, read the complaints and then read that article.

 

Unfortunately based on my experience Rip-Off Report is a sham. They are a for profit site and they charge a huge fee to join their Corporate Advocacy and Remediation Program. We're talking anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000 http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-02-01/news/the-real-rip-off-report/. The Rip-Off Report passing grade came into being after Park West gave Rip-Off Report thousands of dollars. Prior to this there are pages and pages of complaints and warnings about Park West on Rip-Off Report. Rip-Off Report lists no further complaints after that but you can find numerous complaints around the web and there are still numerous allegations and lawsuits that have come into being since then. Plus there's what I and other posters have observed first hand.

 

Here's an ex RCI employee describing in '09 how she was fired for attempting to help customers who had bought art work from Park West that was fake.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRk11G8xc8I

 

Well... a lot of the links when you google Park West comes from Fine Art Registry... which...

http://fineartadvocacy.parkwestgallery.com/park-west-gallery-lawsuit/fine-art-registry-cybersmear.html

Fine Art Registry's defamatory attacks began in 2007, shortly after Park West rejected a business offer from the website's management. Recognizing the potential profit from Park West's clients (the gallery sells hundreds of thousands of works each year) Fine Art Registry approached Park West to buy the website's art registry services. For an annual membership fee of $9.95 and $2.25 per registered work, FAR simply lists an artwork on its site without examining the actual work, researching its authenticity or guaranteeing the website's future existence. Park West saw no value to its customers in spending well in excess of $1 million per year for FAR's service and passed on FAR's solicitation.

FAR's cybersmear campaign began soon after, forcing the gallery in April 2008 to take its initial legal action against FAR in Michigan and Florida*, two states in which Park West owns and operates major galleries and processing facilities. While those suits have been progressing through the courts, FAR has continued its online attacks -- publishing numerous false and defamatory statements about Park West -- and sponsored unsuccessful legal challenges in a number of states. A FAR-sponsored suit was dismissed in California in December 2008. Park West is seeking reimbursement for legal fees in that case.

 

 

 

 

But rather get into an argument over "he said, she said", I would recommend contacting an independent gallery and do your research there.

 

 

By me, there's a gallery called the Wentworth Gallery. They represent many of the same people Park West represents... so I have price checked some of the stuff I've purchased on a cruise.

 

 

I've had mostly positive experiences with Park West... from buying a Disney-thing from some Disney artist aboard a Disney Cruise (and price checking it later against Disney.com fine art) to that Gary Benfield I mentioned earlier (price checking it at Wentworth)

 

 

I don't feel that Park West is "out to get you", and I don't necessarily trust Fine Art Registry (which is the source of the youtube video and the majority of the first few pages of complaints filed against Park West when Googled).

 

 

To each his own, I suppose.

[trajan]

Sorry I meant search Park West on Rip-Off Report. ("Google Park West on their site, read the complaints and then read that article" should have read "Search Park West on their site, read the complaints and then read that article") . It sounds like a total white wash.

 

No surprise, Park West doesn't like people criticising them. Their tactics are consistent. They claim FAR tried to get money from them. Park West and RCI claimed that guy they threw off the ship for distributing the flyer about Park West tried to extort money from them.

 

Man, I'm glad you had a positive experience with Park West. Based on my own direct observations and available information here and around the web I think they are total scum bags and there's a lot more to this than just a feud between FAR and Park West.

 

But rather get into an argument over "he said, she said", I would recommend contacting an independent gallery and do your research there.

Sounds like a good idea for anyone.

[lcguy]

Ya know... there's no deliberating the matter. Some people will buy and like. Some will buy and get massive remorse. Some will just not buy.

 

I for one shall remain in the latter group. :D Although I will go to the art auction on my next cruise just to snicker. :cool:

 

I promise not to end up like the guy who got kicked off the Jewel in Oslo for putting a fact sheet on Park West and passing it out to the auction attendees. LOL

[Mack2]

No surprise, Park West doesn't like people criticising them. Their tactics are consistent. They claim FAR tried to get money from them. Park West and RCI claimed that guy they threw off the ship for distributing the flyer about Park West tried to extort money from them.

 

Well... Park West IS based in Chicago... and you know how THAT goes...

Don't EVER wanna upset the family in Chicago :cool:

 

 

 

:p

[lcguy]

Well... Park West IS based in Chicago... and you know how THAT goes...

Don't EVER wanna upset the family in Chicago :cool:

 

 

 

:p

Actually, it's based in Southfield, Michigan. :eek:

[mommabean]

I have most definitely witnessed phantom bidding. I was up a deck from the centrum behind the auctioneer and to the side a bit. I could see all bidders clearly and he took a bid from the back...that never happened.

 

I loved the time pre-auction when I asked an auctioneer what the numbers meant below Thomas Kincade's signature and he didn't know. I knew. Maybe he was new and forgot or had never been told.

 

I'll go watch and even play the game (cheering) if I have nothing else planned and have already taken my nap. I like bringing home the free print they give to all who attend. I consider it a free souvenir.

 

Gina

[stompy]

I LOVE attending the art auctions. I stand at the side and watch. And drink. And never buy.

 

What really amuses me is the enthusiasm that some attendees display - they remind me of dogs rolling over on their backs on command. My favorite line is the auctioneers oft repeated "a big round of applause ladies and gentlemen for XYZ artist..." and boy do they clap, sometimes cheer.

 

I just stand there giggling and drinking the cheap champagne. My wife thinks I'm the insane one but it's the little things that amuse me. I have never once seen a 'work of art' that I think is worth anything near the reserve price.

 

Caveat Emptor. Do your research BEFORE you bid. Not after.

 

What I don't get is that all the Park West stuff is UGLY!

 

I haven't seen ANYTHING that I'd want to buy at ANY price. Some of the Dali prints are nice but they are fake and the Sigs are all forged so they aren't worth the paper they are printed on

[davidgilead]

First, I've never gone to the auctions because I was basically sceptical. Second, I read the stuff on Google. But I am curious - does this mean that the pictures they have for sale by artists everyone recognizes such as Picasso and Dali, are forgeries?

[Bruin Steve]

I have been cautioning people on these auctions for years...

Unfortunately, there are a lot of cruisers snowed by this...who actually defend it...and claim THEY got a great deal...talk about naive...

 

First thing I guess I'll tell you about me is that MAYBE I know a little more about the business than most...I am a real estate lawyer, but at one time in my early career, I was actually offered a job and partnership in a real estate auction business...I accepted at first, then backed away...but, before doing so, spent a good deal of time discussing the business and learning a bit about auctions in general...

 

I have attended a few auctions in my life...mostly out of interest...I once actually even "busted" an extremely crooked auctioneer, turning over some findings to the local DA...

 

First thing you need to know about auctions is that you NEVER get a bargain at an auction...The entire concept of the auction is to drive prices HIGHER...Think laws of supply and demand...In a normal sales environment, you have multiple sellers vying for your business as a "free agent" buyer...You take what you want to purchase and shop for the best price...The merchant has to be competitive...

 

BUT, with an auction, the deal is that the Seller has multiple buyers competing for the same product...So, even in a completely on the level auction, you, the buyer, are at a disadvantage...

 

What the auctioneer really wants is a LARGE crowd where the laws of probability are that he can get multiple bidders for each item...The psychology of the auction is that if you were willing to pay $300 for something, the fact that someone else bids $310 doesn't make you walk away--You will go to $320...after all, it's only another $20 more...and, after all, if that other guy was trying to grab it for $310, it MUST be worth at least that...and so on...

 

Of course, if there isn't another guy willing to pay $310, no need for the auctioneer to worry...the action is moving so fast and the crowd is so large that...whoa...wait a second...$330 to the gentleman in the back of the room...Which gentlemen? How should I know...he's behind me and I didn't turn around fast enough to see him...But...I'd better up my bid to $340...Whew! Almost lost it for want of just another $20...

 

The auctioneer knows EXACTLY what he wants for the piece at a minimum...and he's got several devices, some legal, some not, to make sure he gets it: Minimum bids, reserve...and phantom bidders...

 

He could also use the phantom bidder to get you to, basically, bid against yourself until he gets you to go as far as you will go...Then, when you've finally had enough...Wow...that other guy, wherever he is, just bid $510...and I just cannot go over $500...I guess I lost...Well...not exactly...After the auction, the auctioneer seeks you out and tells you the "other guy" somehow flaked out...and, if you still want the piece, he will let you have it for that $500 you had offered before being outbid (doesn't really matter that you were the only real bidder even willing to buy it back at $250)...

 

The "appraisals" by the way, are all worthless...What is an appraisal, after all, than an opinion? In the real estate world, appraisals must be based on actual data...recent comparable sales, replacement construction costs, factors of income...But, in the real estate world, there are dependable complete records of all transactions kept in the County offices...Even so, two appraisers can come up with very different numbers on the same property. I've been involved in a good number of Eminent Domain (condemnation) cases...You'd be surprised (or maybe not) just how far apart are the appraisals done by my MAI Appraiser and the one engaged by the condemning agency...

 

Well, how accurate do you think an ART appraisal is? One done on a print or lithograph...#437/1000?

Do you think that appraiser has figures on the actual selling price of the other 999? If so, where is he getting them? Who hired this appraiser and what are his credentials? Think about it? YOU are not getting it appraised...You don't have the opportunity...Park West is "hiring" the appraiser--if at all--and they have every incentive to claim the value to be WAY above what it is...

 

And, for gosh sakes, do NOT try to compare prices with your local gallery...They are not trying to give you a good price either...These are mass produced artworks--check the internet...I GUARANTY you that you will find it considerably cheaper...If you don't, it's that you aren't really looking all that hard...

 

As to the idea that the drinks onboard are overpriced...Come on, it is NOT the same thing...First of all, as with others who have noted this, I live in Los Angeles...The drink prices are NOT out of line with bars or restaurants here...Maybe they are higher than in whatever one-horse town you live in, but, guess what, you aren't in that one-horse town...You are on a cruise ship in a resort area (Oh yeah, BTW, prices here in SoCal ARE higher...but, we don't care, we also EARN a lot more money than you do...It's all relative...My house costs more, my restaurants cost more, lots of stuff costs more...but IF I lived in Arkansas or Tennessee or North Dakota or wherever, IF I had a job at all, I almost guaranty my annual salary would be a fraction of what I'm paid here in LA)...

 

But, here is the big difference between drinks and art auctions...Ever go to a ball game? An amusement park? A movie theater? Ever buy a drink or a food item there? The prices are HIGH...Why? You don't have a choice...no competition...they have you...You cannot buy your beer elsewhere and bring it into the stadium...or onto the cruise ship (Well, yes, I know, some of you smuggle the stuff)...You cannot go onto the internet, find the lowest price on that Margarita and have it delivered to the ship...and you ARE consuming that drink on the ship...

 

But ARTWORK is different...You are not purchasing it to consume on the ship...You are buying it for "use" (or display) back home...You CAN buy it elsewhere...or over the internet...

 

So, why on earth would you race, compete and crawl over other people (or phantom people) to buy a piece knowing that, even in a completely honest auction, you are buying it at a premium? In a sale that is rigged against you? Now, if you know they are lying to you? Cheating? Using deceptive and fraudulent practices?

 

Here's an idea: If you see a piece you especially want on the cruise ship (displayed BEFORE the auction--don't wait for the auction), then head on over to the internet cafe on that ship and Google search the piece...Do a thorough job...Know EXACTLY what you could buy it for at your leisure when you get home...Print out the web page...Then go talk to the auctioneer BEFORE the auction...and make him an offer based on a REALISTIC and REASONABLE price: "Hello, Mr. Park West...I see you have 'Four Dogs Playing Poker' by R. Tist...I know that I can buy it from three different sources for $40...$60 framed...Would you like to sell one to me for THAT price? Or should I wait until I get home or just go order it over the internet?" If he won't sell it to you, auction notwithstanding, I'd be surprised...But, if not, tell him thank you and walk away...

 

But, if you wait for his auction, he'll start it with an opening bid of $100 and tell you it's appraised at $250......Of course, your tablemate from dinner will bid against the phantom bidder until he's up to $200...and he'll THINK he got a deal...a $250 value at a $50 savings...

 

Then you go back and buy it off the net for $40...I guaranty you will be happy...unless you realize it wasn't really worth the $40 either...

[denamo]

I have enjoyed receiving the free prints at the end of the auction. I framed some of them and have them hanging in my office at work. People who walk in my office enjoy the art and always ask where I got it. For me it's a reminder that I work to cruise! :D Win-win in my case.

[Turk]

Years ago I purchased a piece of art from Park West in an art auction at sea. It was a wood block daly signed in the block and in pencil outside the print. I don't want to bore everyone with the details, but it was a collection of work of which Daly's "promoter/manager" made him sit down and sign 25 sets of 99 prints per set. Later I confirmed through Mr Fields the renown "Daly" authenticator that yes indeed this is what I purchased.

 

The problem was that PW did not ship me that version, but only an unsigned copy! There booklet in the fine print said that they had the right to furnish a "similar" version of the print in some cases.

 

Fortunately for me, I had them place a written description of the art on my signed auction contract - I had them. The print was valued (by Fields) at $6500. The print they sent me was valued at $900. I paid $2400 on the ship. They refused to let me take the print off the ship saying that "Customs will charge you a fortune if you carry it off." This was a lie.

 

After months of negotiation with them, they finally agreed that they were at fault and that I was correct. Guess what, the print I bought was sold to another buyer by then! My attorney entered the picture and 2-3 months later they acquired a replacement (different number) at probably an outrageous amount to satisfy my complaint. The art has a different signed number, but is part of the same collection 11/25)

 

Buyer beware!

 

The amazing thing is that on latter cruises I run across many people buying up thousands of dollars of art at these auctions and I sometimes ask "Do you know that these may be overpriced or misrepresented?" They say "Yes, but we take them back to our art shops and are able to say the same things about them quoting all the good lines that PW has given us." They make money on the art.

 

Someone once told me that Art dealers are the highest tier of the swap meet crowd! I believe it.

[BroncosFan2010]

As mentioned previously I loved our first RC cruise. Had a blast!

 

One thing about it did disturb me. I had previously attended art auctions on Princess. Never bought anything but it was entertaining. Some practices seemed sketchy (the guy took at least one bid where I could not id that there was anyone actually bidding) and late one night I witnessed how the auctioneer chose what paintings were brought to the auction 'by request.' The requesting was all done by him.

 

At this art auction and beforehand I decided to do some research. I had to listen to a lot of pitch but I got quotes on the value of 7 different works or series, either in person or at the auction. For the in person quotes they showed 1 written appraisal and promised others are available.

 

I then did some simple research on the internet to compare prices. 1 of them I didn't learn anything concrete. In 3 of the cases the prices were 10 to 30% high. In 2 cases the appraised value was 80 or 90% high. In 1 case the print looked like it was probably not authentic. That really surprised me but after a complicated bit of research that's how it looked. The artists house simply does not acknowledge the series.

 

So I concluded the auctioneers were simply lying. Disappointing. I suspected the auctions were a bit of a scam but I didn't think it would be so bad.

 

I figure just about everything sold on the cruise ship is a scam, and chances are you are being ripped off. That is why I cruise for the experience of being in different ports, enjoying the excursions, and relaxing. I avoid the shopping, auctions, etc., and I enjoy my cruise so much more.

[denamo]

After re-reading my post, I did not mean to diminish other people's experiences with art auctions @ sea. I did also read about customers' to art auctioneers experiences online and some of them are just outrageous. The amount of fraud involved, simply because one is at sea and laws don't apply, is a huge loop hole. I applaud those who have been able to hold unscrupulous companies feet to the fire. More than ever "caveat emptor."

[stompy]

First, I've never gone to the auctions because I was basically sceptical. Second, I read the stuff on Google. But I am curious - does this mean that the pictures they have for sale by artists everyone recognizes such as Picasso and Dali, are forgeries?

 

Well they don't actually sell the originals... They sell prints that have supposedly been signed by the artists.

 

If you google Park West you can see there have been questions surrounding the authenticity of the certificates and the sigs. Also, it has always seemed weird to me that they have the same pics over and over. I mean, Dali's been dead awhile, you'd think death would have slowed down his ability to sign prints of his work...

[Mack2]

What I don't get is that all the Park West stuff is UGLY!

 

I haven't seen ANYTHING that I'd want to buy at ANY price. Some of the Dali prints are nice but they are fake and the Sigs are all forged so they aren't worth the paper they are printed on

 

Have you seen the "art" they have for sale on that Fine Art Registry website?

Three words for that:

Hid Dee Us

 

At least put something attractive on the main page.... y'know?

[Mack2]

Well they don't actually sell the originals... They sell prints that have supposedly been signed by the artists.

 

If you google Park West you can see there have been questions surrounding the authenticity of the certificates and the sigs. Also, it has always seemed weird to me that they have the same pics over and over. I mean, Dali's been dead awhile, you'd think death would have slowed down his ability to sign prints of his work...

 

 

Well... that's the thing there... Dali was a prolific signer... He knew about commercializing his name.

Like this one chocolate commercial.

 

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that some of his signed prints are still in circulation....

But his stuff is dark. His Purgatory series... isn't really sometihng I would enjoy in the dining room... or the bathroom for that matter.

 

 

So I've never been interested in getting one.

[stompy]

Well... that's the thing there... Dali was a prolific signer... He knew about commercializing his name.

Like this one chocolate commercial.

 

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that some of his signed prints are still in circulation....

But his stuff is dark. His Purgatory series... isn't really sometihng I would enjoy in the dining room... or the bathroom for that matter.

 

 

So I've never been interested in getting one.

 

Yeah Dali signed a lot of stuff but EVERY cruise I've been on for the last 10 years has had the SAME Dali prints in the same # lots.

 

He did sign some stuff back in the 50's for this guy and they've been faking and flogging it off to Park West for years.

 

I'd pay about $100 for anything on the ship and that's just for framing and shipping...

[nnnb]

Does anyone know if they are currently selling the Dali prints at the art auctions aboard ships?

[stompy]

Does anyone know if they are currently selling the Dali prints at the art auctions aboard ships?

 

Of course they are... It's just spelled with 3 L's...

 

http://www.fineartregistry.com/articles/far_investigates/salvador-dali-parkwest.php

 

read about Albert Field and the others at Park West and see if you want to do business with them...

[Islandbear]

YES, They are just reproductions.

[nnnb]

Of course they are... It's just spelled with 3 L's...

 

http://www.fineartregistry.com/articles/far_investigates/salvador-dali-parkwest.php

 

read about Albert Field and the others at Park West and see if you want to do business with them...

 

I have no desire to do business with them. Perhaps my post wasn't clear. I was wondering if they pulled the questionable art work from ships due to the allegations set forth against them.

 

Thanks to the links provided here, I found the answer to my question.

[Mack2]

As previously stated, I would question the objectivity of the information from Fine Art Registry (which also is Fine Art Advocacy)... they sem to have a lawsuit going on between the two companies.

 

 

What I have seen at private galleries (such as Wentworth Galleries) is comparable works as seen with Park West...

 

Even checking out Peter Max's website... his stuff is just as ridiculously priced as Park West....

http://www.petermaxstore.com/store/static/item_11009.html

$60K for acrylic on canvas

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with what people think, I would just question the source of the information.

Fine Art Registry is a retailer... they seem to have a hard-on for Park West...

[mommabean]

As previously stated, I would question the objectivity of the information from Fine Art Registry (which also is Fine Art Advocacy)... they sem to have a lawsuit going on between the two companies.

 

 

What I have seen at private galleries (such as Wentworth Galleries) is comparable works as seen with Park West...

 

Even checking out Peter Max's website... his stuff is just as ridiculously priced as Park West....

http://www.petermaxstore.com/store/static/item_11009.html

$60K for acrylic on canvas

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with what people think, I would just question the source of the information.

Fine Art Registry is a retailer... they seem to have a hard-on for Park West...

 

I think the private galleries including Thomas Kincade galleries is that they are prints on canvas with some brush strokes - by those authorized to do the stroking - usually not the artist. In the case of Thomas Kincade, his brother Patrick will do some of the additional strokes at special events. Park West prints are on paper. The canvas costs a bit more and they will tell you theirs are the only ones of value. Of course they are in the business of selling them.

 

It gets back to buying something because you like it, paper or canvas. They are all so abundant - like beanie babies - they'll never be worth anything again. Most likely not even worth the original price.

 

Gina