Gratuities/Tips or Commission/Subsidies!! which is it??

[Pochahontas]

because its simple. they wouldn't post unless their intent was not to tip. No I didn't start this post. I would be very happy if they added it to the cruise price although if Azamara is an example of what happens when they do, expect to pay extra for the privilege(they increased the price by 20%-whether these increases will hold will have to await actual cruises). The history of what people do when they remove their service charge and say they will leave cash is that a large group just does not. The stories about the problems that the employees had with certain nationalities not leaving tips at all is all pretty well documented.

 

Absolute poppy cock! Misinformation at its WORST!

 

Starting in April 2010, Azamara Club Cruises will be revamping operations.

 

To accomplish this goal, starting April 2010, Azamara Club Cruises will be raising cruise fares, but including complimentary wines and beverages for lunch and dinner, offering European Butler Service in their suites, introducing a new loyalty program separate from Celebrity Cruises Captains Club known as Le Club Voyage, and starting in 2012, designing more elaborate itineraries that will immerse guests in the culture of the various ports of call the ship visits on a given itinerary. More overnight stays in exciting ports like Hong Kong, Sydney, and Rome will hopefully draw the premium cruiser to Azamara.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azamara_Cruises

 

 

Find me the example that shows that including tipping/hotel charge / gratuities in the fare for a like for like cruise, to cite Azamara as an example is totally misleading - who on EARTH gets complimentary wines and beverages for lunch and dinner? where is this "we have included gratuities in with the base price thats why your paying more scenario you are on about?

 

Staterooms

All staterooms on Azamara Club Cruises come with complimentary butler service, a daily fruit basket, fresh cut flowers, 24-hour room service, a sweet surprise on your pillow each evening, afternoon canapés, complimentary shoe-shine service, a 23" plasma television, personal stationery, Elemis bathroom products, two nights of complimentary specialty dining, one complimentary large bottle of water, new European bedding, and complimentary use of binoculars, umbrellas and plush robes; and of course, it has been newly decorated to exceed your expectations.

 

http://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/onboardExperience/heroSingleTxtSubs.do;jsessionid=0000Jj23qDukINdvcuNpjF1UDpm:12odmenr5?pagename=unique_stateroom_experience&cS=SIDENAV

 

 

How many from Azamara below do you EXPECT on a "normal Cruise" unless your elite or booked into a full suite?

 

 

With the many new features now included by Azamara

Club Cruises you can see the world as only a fortunate

few ever will.

 

Smaller ships.

More overnights.

Longer stays.

Unique destinations.

Immersive shore excursions.

Complimentary shuttle bus in port when offered.

Destination enrichment.

Destination-flavored entertainment.

Your stateroom or suite.

All meals and room service.

Specialty dining available (complimentary for suite guests).

House wine with lunch and dinner.

Housekeeping.

Gratuities for housekeeping and dining staff.

Coffee and bottled water throughout the day.

Complimentary self-service laundry.

Butler service included for suite guests.

 

http://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/content/html/the_new_azamara.html

 

:mad::mad:

[Dorset Cruiser]

Absolute poppy cock! Misinformation at its WORST!

 

 

 

 

 

Find me the example that shows that including tipping/hotel charge / gratuities in the fare for a like for like cruise, to cite Azamara as an example is totally misleading - who on EARTH gets complimentary wines and beverages for lunch and dinner? where is this "we have included gratuities in with the base price thats why your paying more scenario you are on about?

 

 

 

How many from Azamara below do you EXPECT on a "normal Cruise" unless your elite or booked into a full suite?

 

 

 

:mad::mad:

 

 

You go girl:D:D:D

[Pochahontas]

You go girl:D:D:D

 

 

Pah! :D:D

 

well really! do me a blinking favour we ain't fick gov!!!! lmao :D

[Texas Tillie]

Pah! :D:D

 

well really! do me a blinking favour we ain't fick gov!!!! lmao :D

 

Could you PLEASE translate your post for those of us in the "colonies"?:D:p

[smeyer418]

Absolute poppy cock! Misinformation at its WORST!

 

 

 

 

 

Find me the example that shows that including tipping/hotel charge / gratuities in the fare for a like for like cruise, to cite Azamara as an example is totally misleading - who on EARTH gets complimentary wines and beverages for lunch and dinner? where is this "we have included gratuities in with the base price thats why your paying more scenario you are on about?

 

 

 

How many from Azamara below do you EXPECT on a "normal Cruise" unless your elite or booked into a full suite?

 

 

 

:mad::mad:

 

so you think these 'extras' are worth 20% more than they charged before. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but some people think that a 20% increase even with all the extras that you list may or may not be worth it. remember even before this Azamara was a premium line-with premium prices-so that most of the items were already in the cruise fare. My point still is that to include it will probably cost more...and your point is that it will or won't?

[sail7seas]

When tips are added in the fare, they are commissionable to TA's. That means they are priced even higher to provide for the TA's portion.

[luddite]

When tips are added in the fare, they are commissionable to TA's. That means they are priced even higher to provide for the TA's portion.

 

Lots and lots and lots of cheapskates cannot grasp that concept.

[Pochahontas]

so you think these 'extras' are worth 20% more than they charged before.

Who said anything about what I think its worth? I said SHOW me a like for like comparison, not some deluxe exclusive cruise club that hasnt just put the Gratuities/tips/hotel charge inclusive of price.

 

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but some people think that a 20% increase even with all the extras that you list may or may not be worth it.

You are citing an opinion of a silent majority with out proving who these people are that think the same as you, your logic is flawed, your using the word "some people" who are these "some people" pray tell? You?

 

 

 

 

remember even before this Azamara was a premium line-with premium prices-so that most of the items were already in the cruise fare. My point still is that to include it will probably cost more...and your point is that it will or won't?

I don't have to remember anything, unless you provide a "like for like" example your initial post IS flawed and MISLEADING

 

 

 

When You come up with a true example of a cruise line loosing customers through the inclusion of 'gratuities/tips/hotel charge only then can you post that the formula has failed. I would suggest Azamara is putting the gratuities/tips/hotel charge inclusive of price to bring it up to the standard price of 'like for like' but that is my own personal guess and I am in no way going to root or trawl through the internet to "prove" to you this is the case. What I do object to is your initial post totally misleading people on these boards with ridiculous statement about a luxury line's increase in fares.

 

 

Texas Tillie Could you PLEASE translate your post for those of us in the "colonies"?

 

I no understand!! please explain "colonies?" :D:D

[David&Heather]

When tips are added in the fare, they are commissionable to TA's. That means they are priced even higher to provide for the TA's portion.

 

Maybe thats why so many TA's in the UK advise their customers that the auto 'tip' can be removed:rolleyes:

 

Personally I would prefer this service charge to be added to the fare on grounds of fairness to the customers and the on board staff who should not have to rely on discretionary hand outs to top up their wages.

 

I am also of the opinion that some who support the present system get some sort of kick out of feeling superior to those that they are tipping, more than a little sad and worrying IMHO.

 

I am sure the usual 'pro tipping' mob will shout this thread down again but this is after all a discussion forum whare opinions should be shared and discussed freely.

[David&Heather]

Lots and lots and lots of cheapskates cannot grasp that concept.

 

What an appropriate user name you have, maybe one day you will become enlightened:D

[smeyer418]

When You come up with a true example of a cruise line loosing customers through the inclusion of 'gratuities/tips/hotel charge only then can you post that the formula has failed. I would suggest Azamara is putting the gratuities/tips/hotel charge inclusive of price to bring it up to the standard price of 'like for like' but that is my own personal guess and I am in no way going to root or trawl through the internet to "prove" to you this is the case. What I do object to is your initial post totally misleading people on these boards with ridiculous statement about a luxury line's increase in fares.

 

 

 

 

I no understand!! please explain "colonies?" :D:D

I am sorry you don't like the example. My point is simply don't expect the tips/gratuities/service charge to just go away without having to pay for it anyway. The point that most people make that giving the tip makes a big difference in the service is just plain BS. Obviously there are many cruise lines that have no tipping policies and that doesn't effect the service that much anyway. If the TA's are suggesting removing it its because of either their own ignorance or their own cultural bias....clearly not an educated reason. In most cases if you remove the auto tip and give cash the cruise line requires that all the money be turned into the pool or the tipping out that is required(the waiters tip out the dishwashers and the line chiefs-and sometimes the head waiter/maitre d- and the room stewards tip out the laundry and the supply room and the asst head housekeeper) makes it actually more difficult for them. They are trained just to thank you but as I said a fairly significant group leaves less for no service justified reason. So be careful what you wish for- you will imo pay more for the priviledge of not tipping.

[navybankerteacher]

This continual ranting about how cruise lines conduct their staff compensation programs is about as effective as a fart in a collander: noisy, unpleasant, and utterly pointless.

 

Why not seek a more relevant topic to complain about, such as how some cruise lines let it rain on your cruise?

[luddite]

What an appropriate user name you have, maybe one day you will become enlightened:D

 

Hey now. Am I really being poor-mouthed by a Liverpudlian?

That's pretty rich.

[David&Heather]

Hey now. Am I really being poor-mouthed by a Liverpudlian?

That's pretty rich.

 

Actually by a Mancunian in exile, some very nice people in Liverpool including my wife to be.

 

Lighten up a bit, if you choose a user name such as Luddite you are bound to get a few comments:D

[peterv]

When tips are added in the fare, they are commissionable to TA's. That means they are priced even higher to provide for the TA's portion.

 

Is the portion spent on the salaries of all the other employees non-commissionable as well? or do the cruise lines consider that as part of the cost of doing business.

 

Of course not, then why is it that they have decided to extract that portion of the crew and leave it to the generosity of strangers to pay them? Pay them all appropriately and if someone wishes to tip particular individuals then they can and be done with it.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[peterv]

Lots and lots and lots of cheapskates cannot grasp that concept.

 

Well, considering that the cruise lines set the rate of commission that they pay I do not think this would matter in the slightest. They can simply reduce the percentage of commission by the same proportion that they increase the fare.

 

Or perhaps you refer to some other concept that "cheapskates" cannot grasp?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[peterv]

I am sorry you don't like the example. My point is simply don't expect the tips/gratuities/service charge to just go away without having to pay for it anyway.

 

I do not believe on any thread on this topic has anyone thought that the amount would "go away". In fact I think everyone agrees that the wait staff should be paid a fair wage and eliminate the tipping altogether.

 

The point that most people make that giving the tip makes a big difference in the service is just plain BS. Obviously there are many cruise lines that have no tipping policies and that doesn't effect the service that much anyway.

Exactly, so just get rid of it and include it in the fare.

 

If the TA's are suggesting removing it its because of either their own ignorance or their own cultural bias....clearly not an educated reason.

As opposed to your own cultural bias for having a tip in the first place?

 

In most cases if you remove the auto tip and give cash the cruise line requires that all the money be turned into the pool or the tipping out that is required(the waiters tip out the dishwashers and the line chiefs-and sometimes the head waiter/maitre d- and the room stewards tip out the laundry and the supply room and the asst head housekeeper) makes it actually more difficult for them.

I see, because the cruise line have institutionalised this and made it a business process so that everyone get treated fairly, (now that's a concept, fairly distributing other peoples money to pay their staff, :D) we should just acquiesce and let them continue to have the passengers pay the majority of the staff.

 

I think most of us who are against these tipping procedures would prefer to see the staff paid a living wage instead of excluding a portion of it just to make their fares appear lower.

 

They are trained just to thank you but as I said a fairly significant group leaves less for no service justified reason. So be careful what you wish for- you will imo pay more for the privilege of not tipping.

There is normally no service justified reason for leaving a tip in the first place unless the person has performed some exceptional service for you. In some 40 odd cruises, on multiple lines, I have yet to have a waiter, assistant waiter, steward, bartender or maitre-d do anything other than their assigned duties.

 

It always amazes me the number of posters on here who extol the virtues of the service staff. What is it they they have done for them that we have never seen?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[smeyer418]

Well, considering that the cruise lines set the rate of commission that they pay I do not think this would matter in the slightest. They can simply reduce the percentage of commission by the same proportion that they increase the fare.

 

Or perhaps you refer to some other concept that "cheapskates" cannot grasp?

 

Cheers,

Peter

the percentage of commission and what it is paid against was negotiated with a TA trade organization a long time ago(over 50 years ago). Sometimes extra commission is paid but the base is pretty clear. What is excluded also was negotiated. Right now if gratuities are included in the fare, commission has to be paid on them. The problem with opening to renegotiate is that it would violate anti-trust laws for the cruise lines( a single cruise line can agree with the TA groups but the cruise lines can't agree among themselves) to agree on what is to be included and excluded(an agreement to include or exclude something to be paid against is surely an anti-trust violation). The current agreement hasn't been challenged but any change will surely be. generally commissions are not paid on pass through like taxes and port charges but that was agreed to previously. Crew wages in any form are part of the base cruise and are commissionable. Right now most cruise lines which have service charges etc don't pay commission on them and don't reduce the amount even for the cost of the credit card fee they are charged. I am also pretty sure but not positive that Azamara(you know the bad example) is paying full commission on the full 20% increase.

 

Again for the most part we are talking about 10-12 US dollars per day.- 8-9 Euros/pounds or so.

[David&Heather]

If I read your post you are arguing that to have a fairer system of staff renumeration its going to cost us a few extra pounds in commission to our TA's - I for one would be quite happy to pay a little extra and get rid of this archaic and demeaning system.

[smeyer418]

I do not believe on any thread on this topic has anyone thought that the amount would "go away". In fact I think everyone agrees that the wait staff should be paid a fair wage and eliminate the tipping altogether.

 

Exactly, so just get rid of it and include it in the fare.

 

As opposed to your own cultural bias for having a tip in the first place?

 

I see, because the cruise line have institutionalised this and made it a business process so that everyone get treated fairly, (now that's a concept, fairly distributing other peoples money to pay their staff, :D) we should just acquiesce and let them continue to have the passengers pay the majority of the staff.

 

I think most of us who are against these tipping procedures would prefer to see the staff paid a living wage instead of excluding a portion of it just to make their fares appear lower.

 

There is normally no service justified reason for leaving a tip in the first place unless the person has performed some exceptional service for you. In some 40 odd cruises, on multiple lines, I have yet to have a waiter, assistant waiter, steward, bartender or maitre-d do anything other than their assigned duties.

 

It always amazes me the number of posters on here who extol the virtues of the service staff. What is it they they have done for them that we have never seen?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

actually this gets back to the original premise. No where in what I post does it say that you shouldn't advocate for including in the fare. I just point out expect it to cost you more. I do take issue with the fact that no "tip" is due for basic service. Right now like it or not, cruise lines generally do not include the "salary" of the tipped employees in the cruise fare. the tipped crew gets room and board and a base "salary" of something like $50-100 a month. Most cruise lines do pay a base that is higher including an advance for the tips-that is one reason it has to be turned in- but in any case its not included in the fare now. Refusing to pay it for your cultural reasons doesn't hurt the cruise line- it hurts the crew. I agree that this really doesn't make it a tip in the accepted definition for a tip.

In any case removing it and giving it cash makes it harder for the crew and your point of removing it and not giving extra unless the service is exceptional just proves my point that many people remove it to leave less even when they have no service complaint.

Until its added to the fare, those who remove it and leave less are refusing to follow the custom on ships(i.e. when in Rome not doing what the Romans do) and screwing the hard working crew- its doesn't screw the cruise line- it hurts the crew...not a nice thing is it?

[peterv]

the percentage of commission and what it is paid against was negotiated with a TA trade organization a long time ago(over 50 years ago). Sometimes extra commission is paid but the base is pretty clear. What is excluded also was negotiated. Right now if gratuities are included in the fare, commission has to be paid on them. The problem with opening to renegotiate is that it would violate anti-trust laws for the cruise lines( a single cruise line can agree with the TA groups but the cruise lines can't agree among themselves) to agree on what is to be included and excluded(an agreement to include or exclude something to be paid against is surely an anti-trust violation). The current agreement hasn't been challenged but any change will surely be. generally commissions are not paid on pass through like taxes and port charges but that was agreed to previously. Crew wages in any form are part of the base cruise and are commissionable. Right now most cruise lines which have service charges etc don't pay commission on them and don't reduce the amount even for the cost of the credit card fee they are charged. I am also pretty sure but not positive that Azamara(you know the bad example) is paying full commission on the full 20% increase.

 

Again for the most part we are talking about 10-12 US dollars per day.- 8-9 Euros/pounds or so.

 

I do not think there is any set amount that every agency receives. Although what is and is not included is probably pretty standard.

 

How anti-trust would be involved I have no idea where that idea came from as the cruise lines appear to be able to dictate terms to the travel industry whenever they like. I doubt that they would have a problem with changing the percentage individually.

 

I would dispute the term "including gratuities" to the fare in preference to "including the service staffs wages" since it appears that they do this with the rest of the crew and corporate as well.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Dorset Cruiser]

This continual ranting about how cruise lines conduct their staff compensation programs is about as effective as a fart in a collander: noisy, unpleasant, and utterly pointless.

 

Why not seek a more relevant topic to complain about, such as how some cruise lines let it rain on your cruise?

 

 

"Language, Timothy:eek:"

 

Must say, I'm loving this thread:D

[smeyer418]

one more point. I don't like tipping in general. This thread is about auto-tips. History at least on mass market lines, is that when tipping is included in the fare- extra tips are STILL expected. That is the history on HAL which had a no tipping required policy at one time. That went the way of the dodo. With the auto-tip service charge etc I think its much easier to just leave it at that. On HAL even with no tipping required, tipping became the norm. Again I don't like that, I am just reporting what happened.

With auto-tip/service charge etc no extra tipping has been the norm(except that many/some/most do leave some small extra for exceptional service).

I have left none extra on some cruises and anywhere from a little to a lot extra when I thought the crew deserved it. I leave the auto-tip on-or have it added. But I still don't like tipping. I never know whether I left too much/too little or just the right amount. I know I shouldn't feel guilty about it but I do. Its the "I am my brothers keeper" in me....but obviously not in some others-universally.

 

So again in most cases those who complain about the auto-tip/service charge etc are looking to pay less...and I refuse to help them or condone it.

[Dorset Cruiser]

Just what does my cruise fare pay for:confused: I have just paid Princess £2084 for seven days on an Alaskan cruise for two people (cruise only) and I am also expected to pay a proportion of the crew's wages and not question it because they deserve it (and may be they do). I should point out we always leave the autotips on but we don't have to like the system:(

[David&Heather]

Just what does my cruise fare pay for:confused: I have just paid Princess £2084 for seven days on an Alaskan cruise for two people (cruise only) and I am also expected to pay a proportion of the crew's wages and not question it because they deserve it (and may be they do). I should point out we always leave the autotips on but we don't have to like the system:(

 

It is not nice when some assume that making arguments against the current so called tips you are also witholding them and screwing or stiffing (presumably a us term meaning the same thing) the staff.

I would never make a general statement that all who support the present system get a kick out of feeling superior to the menial staff on board but suspect some do.