Spirit Pilot Stike

[2thesea]

I'm an airline pilot. Here are some points of clarification:

 

About how much money pilots make:

 

Yes, the "average" pilot salary (if there's such a thing) is somewhere around $120,000/yr, but this number is HIGHLY misleading. On one end you have your newly hired, regional turboprop first officer making $19,000/yr and at the other end you have your major airline Boeing 777 captain with 35 years of seniority making close to $300,000/yr. But for every pilot at the top end of the scale, there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots at the bottom of the pay scale. Next time you go through a major airport, count the small regional planes vs. large wide body jets.

 

About the "alleged" 30% increase that Spirit has offered the pilots:

 

What Spirit management forgot to mention is that the deal that they offered the pilots requires working longer hours and getting less rest. It also fails to mention that while a pilot may be at work for a given trip for 70-80 hours every week, the company actually ONLY pays them for the hours when the plane's door is closed. For any given week most pilots are actually averaging only about 18-24 paid hours, even though they've been at work much longer.

 

When figuring out in real numbers what Spirit management offered their pilots, they will actually be making LESS money during the next few years, and a very small pay bump in the following years.

 

About pilots being greedy:

 

If ANY doctor, lawyer, engineer, or other highly specialized professional that has spent as much money, education, time, and experience as airline pilots have was told that they would be making $20,000-$30,000/yr 20 years into their profession, there would be NO doctors out there. Yet pilots keep chugging along with all the pay cuts, furloughs, downgrades, regulation changes, threats, etc because we LOVE what we do, not for greed!

 

Calling Spirit pilots greedy for finally putting their foot down and telling management that they have had enough after years of terrible treatment just shows how little the general public really knows about how airlines are run...

 

 

Well said!!! As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you are not in aviation you just don't get it. ;)

[gapearl]

I'm an airline pilot. Here are some points of clarification:

 

About how much money pilots make:

 

Yes, the "average" pilot salary (if there's such a thing) is somewhere around $120,000/yr, but this number is HIGHLY misleading. On one end you have your newly hired, regional turboprop first officer making $19,000/yr and at the other end you have your major airline Boeing 777 captain with 35 years of seniority making close to $300,000/yr. But for every pilot at the top end of the scale, there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots at the bottom of the pay scale. Next time you go through a major airport, count the small regional planes vs. large wide body jets.

 

About the "alleged" 30% increase that Spirit has offered the pilots:

 

What Spirit management forgot to mention is that the deal that they offered the pilots requires working longer hours and getting less rest. It also fails to mention that while a pilot may be at work for a given trip for 70-80 hours every week, the company actually ONLY pays them for the hours when the plane's door is closed. For any given week most pilots are actually averaging only about 18-24 paid hours, even though they've been at work much longer.

 

When figuring out in real numbers what Spirit management offered their pilots, they will actually be making LESS money during the next few years, and a very small pay bump in the following years.

 

About pilots being greedy:

 

If ANY doctor, lawyer, engineer, or other highly specialized professional that has spent as much money, education, time, and experience as airline pilots have was told that they would be making $20,000-$30,000/yr 20 years into their profession, there would be NO doctors out there. Yet pilots keep chugging along with all the pay cuts, furloughs, downgrades, regulation changes, threats, etc because we LOVE what we do, not for greed!

 

Calling Spirit pilots greedy for finally putting their foot down and telling management that they have had enough after years of terrible treatment just shows how little the general public really knows about how airlines are run...

 

AMEN and HI FIVE to you Tapi!!!

[firefly333]

I used to work for Ross Perot. When I went to work was during the men have to wear white shirts, women dresses... well a few years later the employees sued ole Ross. I was against it then too. IF you know what you will be paid and are handed a dress code, so you know what you have to wear to work, it seems wrong to me to later complain.

 

We also worked a lot of unpaid overtime ...

 

This is no different, except unions are involved so they think they can dictate to management their terms. I get it, pilots are underpaid ... but they might be surprised that not all college graduates go to work for huge salarys. You just hear about high salarys and start thinking you are entitled too? If the company goes bankrupt ... how are these pilots ahead? The problem is the airfare ... Spirit they said just started making a profit. If oil prices go up there goes the profit .. so air fare either has to go up or something to pay more..are people willing to pay more airfare for Spirit?? I dont know.

 

Id say there are too many pilots for the number of jobs, is why the pay scale is so low for these pilots ...if there were fewer trained pilots willing to work for these salarys, then the salarys would go up, its called how capitalism works ... supply and demand. When unions get involved its a false scale.

 

Lets hope Spirit can find money in the profit margin to pay enough more to make the pilots sign back on... we all want this strike over. ..btw I too used to work for a airline.

[silverfoxcruiser]

I totally, unequivically agree with Tapi. Worked in the industry for a legacy airline, whose "feeder" pilots made less that the gate agents for the major carrier!! Silver

[gone_cruisin]

Firefly will just never get it - no point in continuing the debate. You can't battle the uneducated....and yes Fire, you are uneducated about the topic.

[2thesea]

I used to work for Ross Perot. When I went to work was during the men have to wear white shirts, women dresses... well a few years later the employees sued ole Ross. I was against it then too. IF you know what you will be paid and are handed a dress code, so you know what you have to wear to work, it seems wrong to me to later complain.

 

We also worked a lot of unpaid overtime ...we were paid a flat salary and besides working late, we also had to take turns covering emegencies when our rooms cycle ran (about 3 am) and we were on call during that time and had to leave a phone number if I spent a night with a bf (more complicated than it sounds) ... and when they called, you were expected to BE THERE very fast at 2 or 3 am to fix the problem before folks got in the next morning. He hired and trained so he also hired at rock bottom prices, and I had a MBA when I went to work for him. Did I whine?? No one liked the coverage and long hours, but it was what it was.

 

This is no different, except unions are involved so they think they can dictate to management their terms. I get it, pilots are underpaid ... but they might be surprised that not all college graduates go to work for huge salarys. You just hear about high salarys and start thinking you are entitled too? If the company goes bankrupt ... how are these pilots ahead?

 

Id say there are too many pilots for the number of jobs, is why the pay scale is so low for these pilots ...if there were fewer trained pilots willing to work for these salarys, then the salarys would go up, its called how capitalism works ... supply and demand. When unions get involved its a false scale.

 

 

Fire I agree with most of what you post but this time I have to disagree. These pilots like a lot of pilots are being under paid and they are over worked and OVER tired and sleeping in airport etc.....the result of these practices is a Crash just like the one in Buffalo.

 

If you have to show up to work 2 hours prior to your flight and that is a required part of the pilots job shouldn't they be paid for that 2 hours? If during that 2 hours they are checking over the aircraft, checking weather, briefing their crew and this is required to do their job and required by the FAA shouldn't they be paid for it?

[firefly333]

Fire I agree with most of what you post but this time I have to disagree. These pilots like a lot of pilots are being under paid and they are over worked and OVER tired and sleeping in airport etc.....the result of these practices is a Crash just like the one in Buffalo.

 

If you have to show up to work 2 hours prior to your flight and that is a required part of the pilots job shouldn't let be paid for that 2 hours? If during that 2 hours they are checking over the aircraft, checking weather, briefing their crew and this is required to do their job and required by the FAA shouldn't they be paid for it?

 

I do get that ... I think they work too long of hours, and have been there. I have heard of pilots sleeping in their cars they are so tired in the airport parking lots on 60 minutes I think it was.

 

I dont know what will give ... maybe Spirit can charge more for tickets?? From what I see profits are shaky right now ...all oil has to do is go up and they are losing money again...Maybe the gate agents are overpaid and thats how pilots make too little ... I still think Unions pushed the pay scales out of whack ... and of course the pilots should be making more than the others ... I agree.

 

What I dont agree with is Unions. I agree the pilots should for sure be paid a whole lot more and deserve it.

[firefly333]

Firefly will just never get it - no point in continuing the debate. You can't battle the uneducated....and yes Fire, you are uneducated about the topic.

 

Because I agree pilots should be paid more but think Unions are wrong, Im uneducated ... how educated you must be to call names again and again. You are giving pilots a bad name. Name calling makes you sound like you are unable to carry on a discussion... Im sorry for you

 

The only thing we are disagreeing about is if Unions are right and wrong...

[DGP1111]

Just a thought . . .

 

Couldn't this situation have been solved (and perhaps a strike completely avoided) if right after the director of the commercial yelled, "Cut! That's a wrap!", everyone just exited the jet, leaving the overhead bin latched forever??

.

 

.

.

[gone_cruisin]

Because I agree pilots should be paid more but think Unions are wrong, Im uneducated ... how educated you must be to call names again and again. You are giving pilots a bad name. Name calling makes you sound like you are unable to carry on a discussion... Im sorry for you

 

The only thing we are disagreeing about is if Unions are right and wrong...

 

:rolleyes:

[firefly333]

:rolleyes:

 

So far calling me names twice and a smiley face is your best defense of Unions?? .. and Im uneducated because I dont like Unions and their methods? lol

 

I really hope they agree to pay the pilots more money ...I just wish there was another way to get there. I have said over and over, I think the pilots need to work less hours and not be tired, who would want that, not me?? Makes me scared to fly when I hear this.

[oncruisecontrol]

I'm an airline pilot. Here are some points of clarification:

 

About how much money pilots make:

 

Yes, the "average" pilot salary (if there's such a thing) is somewhere around $120,000/yr, but this number is HIGHLY misleading. On one end you have your newly hired, regional turboprop first officer making $19,000/yr and at the other end you have your major airline Boeing 777 captain with 35 years of seniority making close to $300,000/yr. But for every pilot at the top end of the scale, there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots at the bottom of the pay scale. Next time you go through a major airport, count the small regional planes vs. large wide body jets.

 

About the "alleged" 30% increase that Spirit has offered the pilots:

 

What Spirit management forgot to mention is that the deal that they offered the pilots requires working longer hours and getting less rest. It also fails to mention that while a pilot may be at work for a given trip for 70-80 hours every week, the company actually ONLY pays them for the hours when the plane's door is closed. For any given week most pilots are actually averaging only about 18-24 paid hours, even though they've been at work much longer.

 

When figuring out in real numbers what Spirit management offered their pilots, they will actually be making LESS money during the next few years, and a very small pay bump in the following years.

 

About pilots being greedy:

 

If ANY doctor, lawyer, engineer, or other highly specialized professional that has spent as much money, education, time, and experience as airline pilots have was told that they would be making $20,000-$30,000/yr 20 years into their profession, there would be NO doctors out there. Yet pilots keep chugging along with all the pay cuts, furloughs, downgrades, regulation changes, threats, etc because we LOVE what we do, not for greed!

 

Calling Spirit pilots greedy for finally putting their foot down and telling management that they have had enough after years of terrible treatment just shows how little the general public really knows about how airlines are run...

 

 

Well stated. Especially the bit about doctors and lawyers. Being a pilot is definitely skilled labor, and they should be paid well for that skill mostly because the lives of many people are in their hands. You do not want Joe Somebody who is underpaid and overworked flying the plane. I also feel that, in some ways, deregulation has caused airfares to plunge (to an artificial and infeasible low) and (indirectly) this may influence the salaries carriers are willing (able?) to pay. But, I'm pretty sure the CEO's aren't taking a paycut. I am not in aviation, but several of my friends are.

[firefly333]

Well stated. Especially the bit about doctors and lawyers. Being a pilot is definitely skilled labor, and they should be paid well for that skill mostly because the lives of many people are in their hands. You do not want Joe Somebody who is underpaid and overworked flying the plane. I also feel that, in some ways, deregulation has caused airfares to plunge (to an artificial and infeasible low) and (indirectly) this may influence the salaries carriers are willing (able?) to pay. But, I'm pretty sure the CEO's aren't taking a paycut. I am not in aviation, but several of my friends are.

 

Better said than I said it, I agree with everything you said ...especially about how we got to this point where pilots are so underpaid. Something to give, probably fares are artifically low on Spirit, and need to go up.

 

thanks for stating things I feel better.

[futaba951]

Regardless of who's right or wrong, who's greedy and who's getting screwed, the bottom line is a lot of people are being inconvenienced and Spirit is probably history. Anyone who doesn't get their refund now will probably never see their money again. A voucher for $100 future flight. Who are they kidding?

[JimA49085]

Hey Firefly, you should be thanking unions instead of bad mouthing them. I don't know what you do for a living, but everything you have is because some union fought for you to have it. You get a raise, the unions fought for it even if you are in management. You have medical insurance, the unions fought for it. You have a retirement, the unions fought for it. You get paid vacations so you can go on a cruise the unions fought for it.

So stand up and thank a union for everything you have because if everyone thought like you, we wound not be cruising. we couldn't afford it.

[McDebbie]

Just a sidebar, we wanted to fly JetBlue to our Victory cruise leaving from San Juan in September and the rates jumped over $40 per person from yesterday to today. I knew I should have booked them weeks ago. :(

[oncruisecontrol]

 

I find it difficult to believe someone would go to college for 4 years, pay to fly 1000 hours, end up with $80,000 debt in school loans for a job that paid $19,000, but, hey, that's just me! You could make that with no high school diploma in McDonald's.

 

 

Many of today's remaining top paid pilots work for the majors and learned their craft 30 or more years ago in the military. There are, however, many pilots today working as first officers who paid to go to school 10 or 15 years ago and have worked their way up from rock bottom. Some start out taking whatever flying job they can get: dusting crops, flying banners over the beach, commuter prop hopping island to island in the Caribbean. Once they do make it to a commercial airline, the first open door may be from an airline only willing to pay rock bottom. But the pilot wants to just get their foot in the door. They may start out flying turbo props for short jaunts but it is in hopes of moving up to bigger equipment for more pay and prestige. Today, however, pilots can move up, but for much, much less pay than in the past (especially at these low budget carriers). As I stated in an earlier post, do we want underpaid, overworked pilots? I don't think so.

[oncruisecontrol]

Better said than I said it, I agree with everything you said ...especially about how we got to this point where pilots are so underpaid. Something to give, probably fares are artifically low on Spirit, and need to go up.

 

thanks for stating things I feel better.

 

 

The fares probably do need to go up, but if they did, I somehow do not think that the money would trickle down to the employees' pockets.......it would probably just go to pad the CEO and other upper management. Top-heavy like many other companies the last few years.

[futaba951]

Hey Firefly, you should be thanking unions instead of bad mouthing them. I don't know what you do for a living, but everything you have is because some union fought for you to have it. You get a raise, the unions fought for it even if you are in management. You have medical insurance, the unions fought for it. You have a retirement, the unions fought for it. You get paid vacations so you can go on a cruise the unions fought for it.

So stand up and thank a union for everything you have because if everyone thought like you, we wound not be cruising. we couldn't afford it.

 

Unions have placed unsustainable burdens on corporate America. It's only a matter of time before the house of cards collapses. Spirit will be next.

[Tapi]

What I dont agree with is Unions..

 

Fire, I understand your "disagreement" with unions. I used to think the same way. My mentality used to be "why do we need a union to communicate with management? Why can't we maintain a cordial relationship without "mediators?"

 

Almost 20 years later, I undersand now why a union is needed, at least for airline pilots. Being part of a union means clearly written, black and white rules that must be followed. I can't tell you how many times management (at former airlines where we didn't have a union) made me try to do something that could potentially violate an FAA regulation, and thus, loose my license (which I've worked VERY hard to get and to keep free of violations during my entire career).

 

Having a union means that if I'm ever in a situation where management is forcing me to do something that I don't agree with, I have representation. I call my Union representative, and they step in. Rules are enforced, the harrassment stops, I don't need to worry about whether I should violate a regulation in order to keep my job.

 

Having a union means that it's not a management vs. employee situation. There's no preferential treatment. There are clear black and white rules. There's no guessing.

 

ALPA (the Air Line Pilot's Union) is much more than a mediator which enforces regulations. They also helped me during tough times when I was furloughed right after 9/11. I have a job today thanks to the support and resources provided by them. They also provide financial support and insurance for pilots who have lost medical, or been involved in personal tragedies.

[SE NC]

Hey Firefly, you should be thanking unions instead of bad mouthing them. I don't know what you do for a living, but everything you have is because some union fought for you to have it. You get a raise, the unions fought for it even if you are in management. You have medical insurance, the unions fought for it. You have a retirement, the unions fought for it. You get paid vacations so you can go on a cruise the unions fought for it.

So stand up and thank a union for everything you have because if everyone thought like you, we wound not be cruising. we couldn't afford it.

 

You can be sure of one thing....there are thousands of over seas workers who get up every morning and go to work and thank the AMERICAN UNIONS for sending them for their jobs!!!

[LuvTheGoodLife]

Thanks Flyertalker for the awesome Monty Python quote and link. Forgot that bit - it has been so many years since I watched Monty Python...that clip made me laugh out loud!

[gone_cruisin]

Tapi - you're never going to be able get some these anti-union people to understand the purpose of unions; especially within the aviation industry. Airline managements have done a great job painting a picture of pure greed within the news media.

 

I'm not pro-union, and I am in a union - but without one, I would be making minimum wage; especially after September 11th.

 

It is true, my job duties and expectations are clearly spelled out in a union contract. There is no gray area that management could use against me. And for that matter, I cannot do anything less than what is expected of me in this contract. A contract is a win win situation for both parties.

 

I think it all boils down to jealousy. People see a union member wanting a pay raise and they get upset because they haven't seen a raise in a while. There is no reason to be resentful of Spirit pilots. They are not the higher paid pilots! They are not greedy! They just want a more "livable" wage since moving on to the majors isn't an option any time soon for them. 15 years with a small airline is no longer a stepping stone - it's your career. The least they deserve is to be able to not have to work two jobs to make ends meet.

[firefly333]

Fire, I understand your "disagreement" with unions. I used to think the same way. My mentality used to be "why do we need a union to communicate with management? Why can't we maintain a cordial relationship without "mediators?"

 

I do get that Unions help their employees, I just don't like strikes which hurt everyone.

 

I am very glad you didnt do things against the FAA to get you into trouble, and glad the Union stopped them from making you. I too want pilots to be paid more and not sleep in their cars because they are overtired. This whole discussion to me is depressing because if the strike goes on long enough the company could fold, and no one has jobs.. I wish there was a easier answer.

 

btw to the person who said I have a union to be gratefull to for insurance and retirement .. I have neither, I'm living off savings. I'm one of the ones obama will make pay for insurance within 4 years. I broke a shoulder and it cost me $4k ..that's how it goes.. I'm uninsurable, so premiums would be more than my living expenses, so I am uninsured.

 

Its a shame we cant sit down and talk face to face, as without that, we really don't know who we are talking to or their circumstances or each others background or able to understand where each other is coming from. The fact I dont think strikes are a great idea, doesnt mean I am against the pilots making more money or having shorter hours ...some people like gone cruising seem to have the issues confused, and think things are always black and white, either you are for us or you are against us..not that simple. I suspect Im not the only one in America who is anti Union either, just the only one who said so here.

[gone_cruisin]

Fire - you will most likely never see another strike within the major airlines ever again. The government has a strong hold on that and will not allow it for fear of distruption of travel. And airline management knows this.

 

So rest peacefully knowing that your Delta flight a year and half from now will operate because none of their unions will ever be allowed to disrupt travel.

 

Spirit was allowed to strike because the government knew they are an extremely small operation and there are plenty of other airlines to help fill in the seats for these passengers.

 

Mark my words, anything longer than 7 days and Spirit will fold.