NCL DAWN sexual assult on 6/28...

[Mooder]

I'm thinking probably two decades or more.

 

It was an interesting case of two young rich kids who were former lovers.

 

She charged him with kidnapping and rape, but remained alone in a car with the engine running (in a populated area) while he went into a store to get beer.

 

The jury did not regard that behavior as earnest resistance and convicted on a much lesser charge.

 

Ah, that makes sense. The "earnest resistance" requirement hasn't been on the books in most states since the 80's. I'm pretty sure NY dropped it in the early 80's.

[iheartbda]

I'm thinking probably two decades or more.

 

It was an interesting case of two young rich kids who were former lovers.

 

She charged him with kidnapping and rape, but remained alone in a car with the engine running (in a populated area) while he went into a store to get beer.

 

The jury did not regard that behavior as earnest resistance and convicted on a much lesser charge.

Soooooo.......it's quite likely NY wouldn't agree with Miss Rabbit.;)

[chickie_mite]

bet his wife is going to plant her foot in between his legs when he gets home

 

lol!!!

[hbnomics]

I was on that ship also. Saw a woman and child leaving the ship with luggage accompanied by ship security and whatnot as I was coming back onto the ship. Not sure if this was the family or another issue. The kid did not look too pleased. I also think that all Rabbit is saying is that IF the girl said something at the time then the continued assult would not have happened. That did not happen obviously but I think if we are just making things up like everyone else seems to do on here then I would agree. IF she said something loudly at first sign of an issue then it probably would not have continued.

[Sauer-kraut]

Turned out to be a pretty expensive vacation after you figure in the fine, lawyers fees, and 3 tickets by air back to the States!

[Crusin6]

:rolleyes:

While I agree that what he did was wrong and should be fined/locked up etc, this "teenager" was also 18, an adult. Giving someone a "look" while still allowing the foot to remain where it was is not enough. She needed to say NO and push his foot away. She's not a young girl or a young teenager. All she had to do is say something to him and call over someone to report it.

 

Yes, she shouldn't have had to go through that as it was horrible and yes, he should be held accountable for what he did to her. But at the same time, this whole thing could have been prevented if she had just said something to him. I would have understood if she was 12 or 14 but not 18, which in most places (including Bermuda), is deemed an adult.

It is funny the way these threads go, isn't it? I happen to agree with you and I am so surprised that everyone is siding with the victim here....because what I usually expect on CC is for everyone to stop thinking logically and do the complete opposite of what rational people would do.

 

Sorry, but the guy was certainly wrong...but really now...a foot on the knee of an 18yo? This is what a well adjusted 18yo does when their family members make friends with total strangers...and that total stranger turns out to be a moron...versus a lifelong family friend that they happened to meet on a cruise..........The 18yo says get your (fill in your favorite obscenity) foot off my leg you moron!!!! She says it loud and strong.........and doesn't wimper in shame and feel violated and too distraught to think rationally.

 

 

Was the guy a Moron? Dope? Nut? Sicko? YES

 

Should the 18yo have been able to deal with it? ABSOLUTELY

[Crusin6]

I was on that ship also. Saw a woman and child leaving the ship with luggage accompanied by ship security and whatnot as I was coming back onto the ship. Not sure if this was the family or another issue. The kid did not look too pleased. I also think that all Rabbit is saying is that IF the girl said something at the time then the continued assult would not have happened. That did not happen obviously but I think if we are just making things up like everyone else seems to do on here then I would agree. IF she said something loudly at first sign of an issue then it probably would not have continued.

Totally agree!

[Ms belp]

You all are right. Probably isn't the first time this idiot has done something like this, and yes, his wife probably knows that he is a no good jerk, capable of these actions.

 

This must have been a humiliating experience for the wife and children of this pervert.

 

Perverts never think of the consequences, and how their actions will affect their loved ones, and their victims. It is all about them, and getting their perverted "high".

 

Yep, my BIL was a perfect example.

[billie5]

I think the uniformity of the attack on Rabbit is because of a rather obvious and, IMO, rather simplistic application of "Don't blame the victim." Of course, we don't want to blame a victim, and in the case of sexual assaults this is especially true, due to the long and sad history of doing just the opposite.

 

However, there have been some papers in the psych literature in recent years which argue that the pendulum has swung too far to make up for these historic inequities, and that now the victim is held always morally right, neither responsible nor accountable, and forever entitled to sympathy. While most would agree that this attitude is better than blaming the victim, it may also be unhealthy. I believe this is the point that Rabbit was trying to make. I doubt if we are doing our children a favor by assuring them the assault was not their fault, but failing to point out that their response may not have been the most appropriate.

 

At the very least, even those way out on the pendulum swing, who are not likely to agree with the above, should acknowledge that Rabbit showed courage to even mention such a non-PC thought.

 

Bill

[Mooder]

I think the uniformity of the attack on Rabbit is because of a rather obvious and, IMO, rather simplistic application of "Don't blame the victim." Of course, we don't want to blame a victim, and in the case of sexual assaults this is especially true, due to the long and sad history of doing just the opposite.

 

However, there have been some papers in the psych literature in recent years which argue that the pendulum has swung too far to make up for these historic inequities, and that now the victim is held always morally right, neither responsible nor accountable, and forever entitled to sympathy. While most would agree that this attitude is better than blaming the victim, it may also be unhealthy. I believe this is the point that Rabbit was trying to make. I doubt if we are doing our children a favor by assuring them the assault was not their fault, but failing to point out that their response may not have been the most appropriate.

 

At the very least, even those way out on the pendulum swing, who are not likely to agree with the above, should acknowledge that Rabbit showed courage to even mention such a non-PC thought.

 

Bill

 

Ah, if only life were that simple! It is not a matter of not wanting to teach women how to respond appropriately. I am a strong advocate for it - there is nothing worse than a culture of victimization. But calling for education, empowment and respect is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar cry from saying it is her fault. Instead of living on either end of the pendulum swing, how about if we find a healthy middle?

[fin]

I think the uniformity of the attack on Rabbit is because of a rather obvious and, IMO, rather simplistic application of "Don't blame the victim." Of course, we don't want to blame a victim, and in the case of sexual assaults this is especially true, due to the long and sad history of doing just the opposite.

 

However, there have been some papers in the psych literature in recent years which argue that the pendulum has swung too far to make up for these historic inequities, and that now the victim is held always morally right, neither responsible nor accountable, and forever entitled to sympathy. While most would agree that this attitude is better than blaming the victim, it may also be unhealthy. I believe this is the point that Rabbit was trying to make. I doubt if we are doing our children a favor by assuring them the assault was not their fault, but failing to point out that their response may not have been the most appropriate.

 

At the very least, even those way out on the pendulum swing, who are not likely to agree with the above, should acknowledge that Rabbit showed courage to even mention such a non-PC thought.

 

Bill

 

A very good set of examples have been on the NY television 'news' shows recently, where young girls have accused usually minority males of rape, serial rape, statutory rape and manifold other transgressions.

 

The Yowling Press goes screaming into the neighborhoods, sticking their microphones in the faces of everyone they meet with their trial by teevee, and their repugnant leading questions.

 

A few days later, the alleged victim recants, usually escaping jail or even fines for the havoc they have created. And the vacuous twinkies with their little microphones are nowhere to be seen nor heard.

 

And all of these miscarriages have occurred SINCE the infamous Duke University stripper caper. One would have thought the press might have learned a little restraint or balance. But that doesn't sell, does it.

[iheartbda]

It's so easy for everyone to sit here and say what the young lady SHOULD have done.:rolleyes:

 

Actually, doing nothing more than what she did at the time may have been the best thing. It's quite possible that an ugly scene was avoided because I can't imagine a father not going for the jugular upon finding out what mr. feelie foot was doing.

[Mooder]

A very good set of examples have been on the NY television 'news' shows recently, where young girls have accused usually minority males of rape, serial rape, statutory rape and manifold other transgressions.

 

The Yowling Press goes screaming into the neighborhoods, sticking their microphones in the faces of everyone they meet with their trial by teevee, and their repugnant leading questions.

 

A few days later, the alleged victim recants, usually escaping jail or even fines for the havoc they have created. And the vacuous twinkies with their little microphones are nowhere to be seen nor heard.

 

And all of these miscarriages have occurred SINCE the infamous Duke University stripper caper. One would have thought the press might have learned a little restraint or balance. But that doesn't sell, does it.

 

We're getting very off topic here in terms of type of crime, but I have to say that I don't agree with the laws that allow the accuser to remain anonymous while the accused is splashed all over the media. It is too easy for women to ruin a man's life with little concern for consequences. So, there we probably agree.

 

THAT policy is an example of a pendulum swing going too far in an attempt to compensate for narrow minded policies of the past, but defending the victim on the Dawn last week, not so much.

[Mooder]

It's so easy for everyone to sit here and say what the young lady SHOULD have done.:rolleyes:

 

Actually, doing nothing more than what she did at the time may have been the best thing. It's quite possible that an ugly scene was avoided because I can't imagine a father not going for the jugular upon finding out what mr. feelie foot was doing.

 

Amen!

[nezume]

Ah, if only life were that simple! It is not a matter of not wanting to teach women how to respond appropriately. I am a strong advocate for it - there is nothing worse than a culture of victimization. But calling for education, empowment and respect is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar cry from saying it is her fault. Instead of living on either end of the pendulum swing, how about if we find a healthy middle?

 

Amen! Moderation is a wonderful thing. There is no substitute for education on crime prevention. Teaching people ways to prevent themselves from becoming a victim is an excellent thing to do. From women going to clubs in groups, watching their drinks, not going to the store alone at night, and being aware of their surroundings in parking lots to teaching travelers how to prevent themselves from being easy targets for pickpockets, these are things we can do. When we hear of crimes like these, they can be used as learning moments for our children (ex: "Sally, you heard about that girl who had something slipped in her drink? Make sure you don't take your eyes off your drink") but in no way is it justifiable to place blame or "onus" on the victim, especially in these circumstances where the victim did nothing wrong. I feel like certain posters must have the attitude that women who wear revealing clothing and become victims could have prevented it by covering up and are to blame because of their attire or other silly excuses. That is just ludicrous.

[billie5]

Mooder, I could not agree with you more about trying to find a healthy middle course. I think, if you look back at Rabbit and others, no one has accused the victim of this being her fault. My point was that Rabbit seemed to be raising the very unpopular point of view that there is a middle, and that is intolerable for quite a few people.

 

Micchi, links to a more balanced approach to victimization are easy enough for anyone to find.

 

Bill

[CruiseNurseBabe82]

I must say, I am slightly disgusted at people blaming the victim here. Nobody knows the mental status of this 18 year old. If this were your daughter, I am not sure you would enjoy this. It is shocking to see some people's point on these matters. :eek:

[flowerchild]

I unfortunately was in a situation very similar to what this young lady experienced. I was 15 and an older married man at my church tried to kiss me. I sang in the choir with his wife and used to babysit his kids in church!

 

I was so horrified and shocked that I froze for a moment when he kissed me but when his hand started to wander, I "woke" up and took off. I never said a word to him.

 

I was appalled, deeply ashamed and felt extreme guilt. I kept it to myself for months. I couldn't sleep, I had trouble in school, I didn't want to go back to church; it really messed with me.

 

When I finally told a trusted adult (not my parents, I felt such shame and I was afraid of what my dad would do) she told the pastor at my church and I was called to his office.

 

Basically, the pastor blamed me. I was too freindly, too affectionate, too open. If I had kept to myself, I would not have been in that situation... More of that kind of stuff.

 

I wish I could go back and replay that situation once more and change my reaction to the offender. I would have punched him, kicked him, SCREAMED bloody murder and EVERYONE would have known what was going on.

 

I wish I could go back and tell that so called "pastor" what he did to me and how he affected me. He victimized me all over again and it haunts me to this day. What a horrible thing to do to a young woman still leariing about life.

 

I wish my parents would have taught me to be more vocal and stand up for myself when someone was victimizing me.

 

I could wish all day long but it won't change what happened. I can only teach my daughter to SPEAK UP LOUDLY when she feels threatened, no matter how embarrasing or humiliating the situation.

 

The young lady in the article probably felt the same way I did. While I agree that she could have done more to defend herself, I understand how she felt. While I KNEW I should have done more while I was being victimized, I didn't have the wherewithall at that MOMENT to do anything.

 

Bottom line: TEACH YOUR KIDS to SPEAK UP! Raise them to value themselves and thier bodies.

 

I hope no one reading this ever has to go through something like this, either as the young lady OR her parents.

[iheartbda]

flowerchild,

I'm so sorry for what you went through. It just goes to show that one does not always know how to deal with a situation they've never been in before.

 

I'm quite tired of all the Monday morning quarterbacks. Frankly, as an adult, I'm not quite sure how I would have reacted to the situation of the young lady. I could have been so shocked, flabbergasted, outraged, etc. as to not do more than what she did at the time.

 

She could have thought, "do I say something and possibly exacerbate the situation, do I want to embarass the wife and son?", too many things that no one here knows.

[Micchi]

What a horrible situation, flowerchild. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

 

I think the young lady in this case was raised to value herself. Like many women, she wasn't able to speak up at the time - but she felt comfortable and safe enough with her parents to trust them by telling them what happened to her - I'm glad they took her seriously.

[dockrocker]

Thanks for sharing that, flowerchild. I wish you'd gotten that do-over you wanted, but the important thing is that you've grown and changed enough that you know what you'd have done if you had that second chance.

 

I think it's helpful to remember that people aren't magically handed the wisdom and experience of an older adult the minute they turn 18. Most 18-year-olds, particularly women, don't have the self-confidence and assertiveness of their older counterparts, and quite a few of them still possess a hesitation to make waves or question older adults, especially family friends.

 

I was thoroughly groped on a very crowded subway when I was 19. My response was to try (and fail) to wriggle away from the guy (there were about 100 people in a space that would have fit 10 comfortably). I got off at the next stop, which wasn't anywhere near where I'd been intending to end my journey.

 

I spent the next few years thinking of all the things I *should* have said, all the ways I should have humiliated him for his behavior while he was captive in a subway car full of people who would not have taken kindly to his conduct. I beat myself up a lot. Only when an older friend talked me very wisely and gently about responsibility, accountability, letting go of what we can't control and focusing on appropriate responses we *can* make did I stop blaming myself.

 

A few years ago, it happened again. I've never seen anyone as nervous as that guy was when I called him out in front of everyone. There were several dozen people staring at him and heaping him with contempt. He literally ran off the train at the next stop with several guys (and me) in full pursuit. He got away, but had we caught him, I'd have filed a complaint. As it was, I felt all right about the way it turned out.

 

But I was quite a bit older that time, and had quite a bit more confidence in myself and much less fear of making waves or drawing attention to myself.

[harrodsfan]

This is unexcusable...please don't blame the victim..it is so bizarre she might have not know what was going on...

In the main dining room no less. didn't anyone else see.

[CruisnGram]

 

Yes, she was a victim but i also think it's ridiculous to think she was faultless as she had it within her power to stop it. I think people see "teenager" and immediately deem them as being helpless.

 

I've given my opinion on this. You've given yours. We both agree that the guy should pay for what he did. I just think that some responsibility lays in her lap for allowing it to continue when she clearly had other options. I'm not going to argue this further with you.

 

I hope if you have a daughter or granddaughter this never happens to them. And if it does, I have to wonder if you will be so quick to say that she was not faultless.

 

CG

[nycruiser80]

at what point do we start holding people responsible to STOP what is happening to them?? She was 18, an adult. Whether she's frightened or not, she's old enough to know it's wrong and to do something about it after the fact, so why not do something before that point? My point was that whether she's frightened or voilated, she should have stopped it and said something. If she had been 30 or 40 years old, and the guy was playing footsie with her, i would most certainly have questioned why she didn't just push his foot away. The guy was a stranger. Not a teacher, cop or someone else in a position of authority. If someone walks up to you on the street and starts manhandling you, do you just stand there and let him do it or do you tell him no and walk away??

 

I'm not condoning what he did in any way shape or form. But he also wasn't holding her against her will or stopping her from the ability to just say NO. At what point is someone an adult enough to be responsible for their own actions, or in her case, her inactions??

 

 

I understand what your saying and the logic behind it but lets for a moment look at an 18 year old. In this country (and many other) 18 is a legal age for most things and it is at this age we designate childhood to adulthood. This is a legal definition not a mental one. As many people who know who deal with children (whether a teacher or parent) on a daily basis the mental acuity of an 18 year old is not fine tuned meaning an 18 year old still may not have the sharp mind of a person who is 35 and have done a bit of living.

 

I know when I was 18 I thought I knew it all and boy was I wrong I am 29 and finally have come to my senses and realize that I need to take a step back. I now feel I am (for the most part) mature. I think as MOST people get to their late 20s and early 30s they have finally matured.

 

While I do agree their are some VERY mature 18 year olds and I do beleive (speaking as a male) females tend to mentaly mature quicker then boys. However I beileve an 18 year old girl is STILL a child not matter what the law states. They have a lot of living and learning to do and honestly I can see how this girl may not have known how to handle it at her age. She probably felt ashamed and just ran away.

 

About 7 or 8 years ago I was 21 or 22 I was a travel agent at the time and I was just coming out - I am gay. This man came in the office one day, very strange characer. After a few minutes I got a very weird feeling of this guy. He must have been 40-45. As I helped plan a trip to Aruba I realized he was enjoying himself if you catch my drift. I was schocked and I froze at my desk. I was appauled and shocked that someone would do this in living day light. And beleive me I wasn't a naive kid.

 

I started to get very nervous and continued checking the trip even though I felt it was bogus. He then started asking me whats up, whats up and I just clamed up. He left. I went to the bathroom and I cried. I felt very weird and violated. After I came out told my boss what happened and called the cops. I had the name and the address of the fellow (the idiot gave it to me). The cops could care less I was of age and he was not threating me. Nevertheless, I felt upset over it. Now if that was today I would have told the guy off but I was young then just coming out of the closet it was tough. And even though I like guys I did not want to be with a guy 20 years older then me manipulating himself infront of me. I have standards!

 

No one has the right to touch or force sex on anyone. Its mutual. So my point is this is a girl, despite what the law says handled herself very well. Bottom line---you can't expect an 18 year old to act like an adult.

[nycruiser80]

I unfortunately was in a situation very similar to what this young lady experienced. I was 15 and an older married man at my church tried to kiss me. I sang in the choir with his wife and used to babysit his kids in church!

 

I was so horrified and shocked that I froze for a moment when he kissed me but when his hand started to wander, I "woke" up and took off. I never said a word to him.

 

I was appalled, deeply ashamed and felt extreme guilt. I kept it to myself for months. I couldn't sleep, I had trouble in school, I didn't want to go back to church; it really messed with me.

 

When I finally told a trusted adult (not my parents, I felt such shame and I was afraid of what my dad would do) she told the pastor at my church and I was called to his office.

 

Basically, the pastor blamed me. I was too freindly, too affectionate, too open. If I had kept to myself, I would not have been in that situation... More of that kind of stuff.

 

I wish I could go back and replay that situation once more and change my reaction to the offender. I would have punched him, kicked him, SCREAMED bloody murder and EVERYONE would have known what was going on.

 

I wish I could go back and tell that so called "pastor" what he did to me and how he affected me. He victimized me all over again and it haunts me to this day. What a horrible thing to do to a young woman still leariing about life.

 

I wish my parents would have taught me to be more vocal and stand up for myself when someone was victimizing me.

 

I could wish all day long but it won't change what happened. I can only teach my daughter to SPEAK UP LOUDLY when she feels threatened, no matter how embarrasing or humiliating the situation.

 

The young lady in the article probably felt the same way I did. While I agree that she could have done more to defend herself, I understand how she felt. While I KNEW I should have done more while I was being victimized, I didn't have the wherewithall at that MOMENT to do anything.

 

Bottom line: TEACH YOUR KIDS to SPEAK UP! Raise them to value themselves and thier bodies.

 

I hope no one reading this ever has to go through something like this, either as the young lady OR her parents.

 

 

What a powerful story. I am sorry that happend to you. I also apologize I am reading this thread totaly out of order! I am sure I will upset some for that.

 

It is so true we need to teach children to be vocal. I am a teacher now - I had my 1st class this year. I teach 3rd grade and I had a student (girl) come to me and said in a matter of words that a boy in the class touches her in her private area "infront" during gym class. I couldn't beleive it. As I spoke to her she started to cry it was so sad I thought I was going too cry too! But she admited to me that this boy was doing it even in 2nd grade and she hand't told anyone since then not even her parents. But she told me that day because I had mentioned in class that day about how we have personal space. Nevertheless, I told her I was so proud she had the courage to tell me. In the end, the principal decided to expell the male student (I work at a Catholic school) and recommended a counsleour for him and the girl as well.

 

It took her time to tell an adult about what a peer was doing to her because I beileve she knew it was not right and felt ashamed and she knew she would get another classmate in trouble but her parents told me they taught her to speak up if anyone touched her in an inappriopriate way. While it took her along time to speak up....you have to remember these kids are babies - 8 years old. But it starts this young - I am happy she spoke up and I am happy he is getting counseling. Children need to learn to speak up and I hate to be provocative and bring politics in but this is what is meant about sex education in the classroom. Sex ed in the young grades is NOT about teaching them to have sex! It is telling children about good touch and bad touch and that there are areas on our bodies that NO one should be touching! This needs to be taught. I can't stand when I read its a liberal thing. Its not it is teaching our children about their bodies and that these areas are special we own then and respect them!