Is it time to change the policy on auto tipping?

[Jade13]

If that is true, then they ended up doing better anyway because half was in place via automatic tipping and half+extra was given in cash.

 

I didn't see a policy that stewards must turn in cash tips to be shared. How do you come about this information?

 

Yes, they must hand it over.

[sail7seas]

b) <snip> A corporation who pays slave wages and evades taxes of the countries they serve by registering in Liberia or Bahamas is not likely to not skim off the top of service fees. Every government in the world does this. Big corporations are no different.

 

 

Just in the interest of absolute accuracy, HAL registers all their ships in The Netherlands.

 

Says "Rotterdam" right on the gorgeous blue hulls on all the HAL ships.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I have cruised HAL for about 45 years...At no time were tips included in the cruise fare..."Tipping Not Required" did not mean that gratuities were not welcome or expected...It certainly did not mean it was included in the fare...Certainly there were always a few who used it as a excuse not to tip.

 

Holland America's first ship was built in 1973, 37 years ago, but I'm nitpicking. I only learned this when I was searching to locate something about the tipping policy in "the good old days". I was not successful although I did find something that stated there was a "no tipping policy" in place.

 

It's my recollection when we were planning a cruise on HAL in the mid 90's that their paperwork emphatically stated that it was no tipping required, expected or anticipated (though in retrospect I'm sure they would have been most welcome).

 

I called HAL because I was suspect and they told me clearly that there was no tipping. We had to cancel that cruise so I can't comment beyond that statement. But I do remember that I was happy it was included in the fare (which is the terminology the agent used). Of course, then as now, the information we receive on the phone is not always 100% accurate;), but it can explain why some new cruisers could end up being considered "deadbeats" through no fault of their own.

 

I'm highly suspect about HAL's distribution of the automatic tips/service charge which is why I don't like them. I prefer to see for myself where my dollar is going so I view the service charge as simply that and then go ahead and tip as we always have.

[sail7seas]

About nitpicking.........

 

 

:confused:

Holland America's first ship was built in 1973, 37 years ago, but I'm nitpicking.

 

 

 

Holland America was founded about 1873.

 

Rotterdam V began sailing 1959 so I have no idea what the date 1973 as 'first ship' means? My parents sailed on her in 1962. HAL certainly had ships that carried Immigrants from Europe to America long before 1973.

[mariner]

You are correct s7s.

 

The policy was Tipping Not Required, BUT you could always entend the courtesy to crew members. That worked fine for me for years. However, most people ignored the BUT.

 

The auto tip, which seemed to have been implemented for those who insist on traveling and not spending one dime aboard, has been a disaster since it began. It's bad enough that mentality helped melt the economy. It runs counter to the Indonesian culture and service has suffered.

 

The amount that they acutally get varies by department. Wine stewards are hardest hit.

 

Removing it because of an act of God is myopic, no, make that incredibly stupid. The person who cleans yopur cabin or serves you dinner doesn't drive the boat. And the person who does doesn't get tipped.

[jtl513]

Rotterdam V began sailing 1959 so I have no idea what the date 1973 as 'first ship' means?

In wikipedia's "history" of HAL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_America_Line ) the only mention of the year 1973 that I can see is this:

 

In 1971, HAL suspended its transatlantic passenger trade and, in 1973, the company sold its cargo shipping division.

 

As far as the first "cruise ships", the article says:

Though transportation and shipping were the primary sources of revenue, in 1895 the company offered its first vacation cruise. Its second leisure cruise, from New York to the Holy Land, was first offered in 1910.

[geocruiser]

Captain Albert Schoonderbeek blog has a great write up on Holland America's history.

 

http://www.hollandamericablog.com/albert/?page_id=1041

[Opinions]

Holland America's first ship was built in 1973, 37 years ago, but I'm nitpicking. I only learned this when I was searching to locate something about the tipping policy in "the good old days".

.

 

If you received your information about tipping from the same source that says HAL's first ship was built in 1973 then perhaps you could possibly need better sources...With all the information available about HAL there is really no need to "nitpicking" about the possibility of my cruising HAL 45 years ago.

[serendipity1499]

I think the whole problem with tipping would be solved if the cruiselines added the hotel service charge as part of the price of the cruise that had to be paid ahead of the cruise. It should be added just as the port charges and taxes are added to the price of the cruise. I think you would then have a happy crew who were earning a good base salary and who could also supplement their salary with extra tips for going above the standard of service. As for the passengers who now remove the auto tips, they could make the choice of whether they wanted to cruise or take another form of vacation.

 

As another poster mentioned, Be careful what you wish for..

 

I believe that Phillip217 mentioned that if the Hotel Service Charge was charged up front, then the Crew would have to be paid from Seattle & pay U.S. Income taxes, Social Security etc. on those wages which were collected by Seattle..

He said that in order for the crew to get what they do today, the Hotel Service charge would have to be at least 50% more..Does anyone else remember this post from several years ago?

 

This may have been covered before during this thread- but I have to ask...What kind of "service fee does HAL take out of the $11 per day charge for themselves? I have to suspect, as the governing body, they believe some of the money belongs to the house. I couldn't get an answer to this question. Someone did mention the dishwashers share in the tip pool. Huh? Shouldn't they get a fixed salary?

 

HAL does not take anything out of the $11 per day pp..And Sail is correct..We've been cruising HAL for years & we were told when the auto HSC was pout in place (in 2004) that if anyone removed the Auto Tip, the Crew members would be advised & they would have to put into the pool what they were given by the person who removed the auto tip..

 

I also wonder if you have read any of the remarks mentioned in this thread by Bruce Muzz, who has been a Hotel Manager for many years on many lines....He explains the HSC very clearly & I posted the URL's in two of my posts..

 

I just got back from a HAL cruise and our solution, however imperfect, was to take half of the tipping fee away from the shipboard account and distribute it to the people who waited on us (stewards, dining room etc) in CASH.

 

You did a dis-service to your Stewards!..Now they not only had to turn in the monies you deducted, but they also turned in the extra you gave them..Didn't you go to the disembarkation talk given by the CD? He explains everything in that talk..

 

I know these guys are paid slave wages ($10 a week or so), so this has to be better than letting HAL do the accounting. I could be wrong, but we were very generous in our tipping all week and were treated like royalty everywhere we went.

 

This is simply not true..Haven't you read this thread through at all..If you had I don't understand how you can make that statement..:confused: I quoted Phillip 217 (another Hotel Manager) who states that the Stewards are in a union & have negotiated contracts..Quote: "Most cruise line waiters are promised a MINIMUM GUARANTEED SALARY of around US$1600 - US$2200 PER MONTH."

 

Betty

[serendipity1499]

If DH knew I had all this junk he probably would have a fit...LOL

There has been so much conjecture on this thread about HAL's original "No tipping required Policy", so I went through some of the stuff accumulated on our past cruises..

The first time HAL charged the HSC was in 2004..

We were on the Amsterdam in South Amer. in 2003 & I kept all the stuff :eek: including the booklet published in 2002..

On page 45 this is what it says:

 

Quote

"TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY"

Exceptional service is part of the Holland America Line cruise experience.Because you are our guest, it is our goal to make sure you receive the finest service possible. Our "Tipping not required" policy ensures that the professional and gracious service you receive on board is truly sincere; that we are dedicated to providing the most relaxed cruise vacation, not simply providing service in return for tips. You are free however, to extend monetary recognition if you wish-it's entirely up to you. (Company Policy prohibits us from suggesting how much)

Please remember that this "tipping not required" policy does not extend beyond the ship. In terminals, airports,ports of call, and on special shore excursions you should tip at your own discretion" Unquote

After reading this, I don't know how anyone could misinterpret what HAL was saying...If TA's said that tips were included then they didn't know what they were talking about..I also checked our expenses & we obviously understood that tips were not included as we tipped our Stewards accordingly..

Cheers....:)Betty

[serendipity1499]

In wikipedia's "history" of HAL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_America_Line ) the only mention of the year 1973 that I can see is this:

 

In 1971, HAL suspended its transatlantic passenger trade and, in 1973, the company sold its cargo shipping division.

 

As far as the first "cruise ships", the article says:

 

Though transportation and shipping were the primary sources of revenue, in 1895 the company offered its first vacation cruise. Its second leisure cruise, from New York to the Holy Land, was first offered in 1910.

 

John, don't rely on Wikipedia...I think Heather is right...The Prinsendam actually became the first HAL ship to be designated as a Cruise ship in 1973..She actually sailed in Indonesia & Alaska..Hal did offer a couple of vacation cruises but it wasn't until 1979 & 80 it became a full leisure cruise company..Check out the blog posted by geocruiser..

"Captain Albert Schoonderbeek blog has a great write up on Holland America's history.

http://www.hollandamericablog.com/albert/?page_id=1041 "

 

I skimmed thru parts one, two & three & it looks like that after 1910 the HAL ships were used in the two war efforts & then HAL became primarily a Cargo shipping Company with only trans-atlantics thrown in...It only started the cruise business in 1973 with the first Prinsendam, which was cruising in Indonesia & Alaska...

According to Capt. Schoonderbeek it wasn't until 1979 & 80 that: Quote

"The existing passenger fleet from the North Atlantic days was transformed into a cruise – only fleet, with a new logo and a new blue hull color." Unquote

See part 4 of the Capt's blog..

Cheers....:)Betty

[sail7seas]

Rotterdam V was a cruise ship long before 1980. My parents sailed from NYC to the Caribbean on her in 1962. My father died not long after so I am very sure of the time period.

 

[MightyQuinn]

Rotterdam V was a cruise ship long before 1980. My parents sailed from NYC to the Caribbean on her in 1962. My father died not long after so I am very sure of the time period.

You're right. Rotterdam V was launched in 1958 and sailed her inaugural in 1959. We sailed her thru the Panama Canal on her 1000th voyage in 1996. She will always be my all-time fave HAL ship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Rotterdam

[serendipity1499]

Rotterdam V was a cruise ship long before 1980. My parents sailed from NYC to the Caribbean on her in 1962. My father died not long after so I am very sure of the time period.

 

 

OK...Understand & stand corrected...

Capt. Schoonderbeek blog, only shows the Rotterdam (the ship of State) as doing Trans-Atlantics..He does not mention the Caribbean at all...However he did say that when the QM, QE & US were retired, the Rotterdam could continue as a cruise ship while the other ships could only do Trans Atlantic runs, which were not profitable since airliners took the bulk of their Passengers...

 

Also wikipedia says this: "As more and more transatlantic liners started to disappear due to the popularity of plane services, the Rotterdam was retired from transatlantic service permanently in 1969, and afterwards she received a small refit for permanent cruising and began her new life as a full time cruise ship."

That is the reason I figured she was only doing Trans-Atlantics until her refit in the 70's...

Cheers....:)Betty

[photomikey]

"TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY"

Exceptional service is part of the Holland America Line cruise experience.Because you are our guest, it is our goal to make sure you receive the finest service possible. Our "Tipping not required" policy ensures that the professional and gracious service you receive on board is truly sincere; that we are dedicated to providing the most relaxed cruise vacation, not simply providing service in return for tips. You are free however, to extend monetary recognition if you wish-it's entirely up to you. (Company Policy prohibits us from suggesting how much)

 

Please remember that this "tipping not required" policy does not extend beyond the ship. In terminals, airports,ports of call, and on special shore excursions you should tip at your own discretion"

What a history lesson! Thank you for digging this up and posting it!

After reading this, I don't know how anyone could misinterpret what HAL was saying

You kidding? I can immediately see how people can interpret what HAL is saying. (I won't go so far as to say MIS-interpret, as I don't know for sure what they're saying!)

 

Today, under the hotel service charge, I usually tip the room staff $20 or so at the end of the week, and perhaps $20 for the dining room staff as well. But they're getting the HSC as well.

 

Under what is written above, I probably would tip about the same, assuming that... well, that tipping is not required. But the staff wouldn't be getting the HSC in this case.

 

If ya thought the vitrol in the tipping threads was bad now, I can't imagine what it would have been like in those days! :-)

[jtl513]

John, don't rely on Wikipedia...I think Heather is right...

Clearly 1973 is wrong for HAL's first cruise ship. I think Heather mis-read (or the source she was reading mis-stated) 1973 in place of 1873. The first line of the wikipedia article says:

 

The Holland America Line was founded in 1873 as the Dutch-America Steamship Company (Dutch: Nederlandsch-Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij), a shipping and passenger line.

[Junonia]

So, what was the amount?

 

About $2 a day, or a little less.

[cancun cowgirl]

Can we please end this topic!!!!!

[Travalot]

If ya thought the vitrol in the tipping threads was bad now, I can't imagine what it would have been like in those days! :-)

 

It was awful. There was so much misinformation from travel agents about HAL's policy and many passengers sincerely believed that HAL had "no tipping" or that tips were included, only to be shocked once they were on their cruise. There was a large contingent on the boards that wouldn't admit that the "tipping not required" statement was confusing.

 

I know I once went on line and collected (and posted) about half a dozen travel agent's statements that HAL had "no tipping."

 

I'm sympathetic, cancun cowgirl, but tipping threads end only to be resurrected almost immediately. :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

............................

 

Holland America was founded about 1873.

 

Rotterdam V began sailing 1959 so I have no idea what the date 1973 as 'first ship' means? My parents sailed on her in 1962. HAL certainly had ships that carried Immigrants from Europe to America long before 1973.

 

If you received your information about tipping from the same source that says HAL's first ship was built in 1973 then perhaps you could possibly need better sources...With all the information available about HAL there is really no need to "nitpicking" about the possibility of my cruising HAL 45 years ago.

 

As so many are so fond of saying here, you are both 100% correct. I am wrong. I meant to say the first ship Holland America built specifically for cruising was in 1973. So of course Opinions could have been sailing on Holland America long before that.

 

And of course I knew that Holland America existed long before that so it was definitely a brain freeze and I apologize for that portion of my post ... I definitely made a mistake.

 

However, the tipping information I received was (as stated) directly from Holland America Line. Clearly there was a lot of misinformation out there then ... and there is to this day.

[HeatherInFlorida]

Too late to edit my post, I learned that Rotterdam V was considered an "ocean liner" built to cruise the world. So the misunderstanding is semantics about the words "cruise ship". When I looked up the information I asked when Holland America began "cruising".

 

I would have mentioned my source for my info, but it's a site along the same lines as CC so I'm guessing that would be a no-no:).

 

The fact remains I posted misinformation and I really do try not to do that. I didn't think it through which is always a bad thing. Of course, there's always someone who can't wait to pounce ... I'll remember that the next time I hold back;).

[Sea King]

Too late to edit my post, I learned that Rotterdam V was considered an "ocean liner" built to cruise the world. So the misunderstanding is semantics about the words "cruise ship". When I looked up the information I asked when Holland America began "cruising".

 

I would have mentioned my source for my info, but it's a site along the same lines as CC so I'm guessing that would be a no-no:).

 

The fact remains I posted misinformation and I really do try not to do that. I didn't think it through which is always a bad thing. Of course, there's always someone who can't wait to pounce ... I'll remember that the next time I hold back;).

 

just one "small question" since I am (or was) the OP:eek:

 

does this have anything whatsoever to do with whether it's time to change the tipping policy on HAL

 

opinions are wonderful ..

 

for what it's worth, I don't know "how to change the policy"

 

I do know it's time it did change

 

and that's regardless of whether we talking about a world cruise or seven days

 

think maybe we turn our attention smoking:rolleyes:

 

that's something we can all agree on:D:D

[serendipity1499]

What a history lesson! Thank you for digging this up and posting it!

 

You kidding? I can immediately see how people can interpret what HAL is saying. (I won't go so far as to say MIS-interpret, as I don't know for sure what they're saying!)

 

Today, under the hotel service charge, I usually tip the room staff $20 or so at the end of the week, and perhaps $20 for the dining room staff as well. But they're getting the HSC as well.

 

Under what is written above, I probably would tip about the same, assuming that... well, that tipping is not required. But the staff wouldn't be getting the HSC in this case.

 

If ya thought the vitrol in the tipping threads was bad now, I can't imagine what it would have been like in those days! :-)

 

Oh it was then too!..When we took our first 10 day HAL cruise in 1998 with our Sailing Club there were approx. 22 of us...DH & I had previously been on several NCL cruises & knew enough to tip our Stewards at the end of those cruise's..

However on HAL, we all were told by our Travel Agent that "The tips were included in our Fare"..Sixteen of us ate together at late seating & our MDR Stewards would put two tables of 8 together for all of us every night...I know that none of us at late seating ever tipped them..:(

Imagine our chagrin to later learn that Tipping was not included...:o

To this day we talk about it & many of us still feel very bad as they were wonderful Stewards..

You can be sure on our subsequent HAL cruises we all tipped... BTW we got a new TA too..

 

Clearly 1973 is wrong for HAL's first cruise ship. I think Heather mis-read (or the source she was reading mis-stated) 1973 in place of 1873. The first line of the wikipedia article says:

 

The Holland America Line was founded in 1873 as the Dutch-America Steamship Company (Dutch: Nederlandsch-Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij), a shipping and passenger line.

 

Yes agree John, & I take full responsibility for my mistake....

 

Can we please end this topic!!!!!

 

Cowgirl...There is an unwritten rule on this board & that is:

It's presumptuous to suggest that we should end a topic/thread !!

Only the Hosts can end a thread, if they feel that it has gone too far off topic, or the topic is causing friction between posters..;)

If you are no longer interested in the topic, may I suggest you just don't post on it!..;)Your post does nothing but annoy those of us who are still interested in the topic..Thank you for your consideration..

 

SEAKING: As far as I'm concerned, I don't think it's time to end the HSC..As explained by either Bruce Muzz or Phillip217, if tips were included in the cruise fare, then the Crew would have to pay income taxes on their wages.. Therefore the tips would have to substantially be increased, in order for them to get what they get now..As another poster mentioned..Be careful what you ask for..LOL

Cheers.....:)Betty

[HeatherInFlorida]

just one "small question" since I am (or was) the OP:eek:

 

does this have anything whatsoever to do with whether it's time to change the tipping policy on HAL

 

opinions are wonderful ..

 

for what it's worth, I don't know "how to change the policy"

 

I do know it's time it did change

 

and that's regardless of whether we talking about a world cruise or seven days

 

think maybe we turn our attention smoking:rolleyes:

 

that's something we can all agree on:D:D

 

I have no idea when or how the thread got off track or even if it actually did. It was all about tipping and in my post I was referring back to the tipping policy (as told to me) in the 90's.

 

I just respond to posts that I read and it's not my responsibility whether or not the thread is exactly on the track you had wanted it to be. So why single me out with so many people going this way and that with the darned thread?

 

I apologized for my error and corrected any misconception. That's more than most posters here ever do when they make a mistake.

[Opinions]

 

Does the crew pay income tax on their wages now?...To who?...Do they pay income tax on the daily "service charge" now?...Do they pay income tax on extra tips now?...My understanding has always been that tips were never included in the cruise fare because that amount would be subject to a commision for TA's...They certainly are not port charges or government taxes...But I don't claim to know the true answer.