Is it time to change the policy on auto tipping?

[cruzngal]

I've never liked the automatic tipping policy because at that point it's just another fee. I'd rather tip based on service received. But given that they've instituted a service fee, it's fine and we pay it.

 

Looking at it from the other side of the coin, when something adverse happens, like missing 3 ports, I'd bet that many passengers felt that there was no way to communicate their grievance other than this. After all, all fees are paid by that point. The cruise line has their money, so there's nowhere to go. Personally, I'd rather that they dispute their bar bill or some other charge that is yet to pay, but even that misses the point.

 

Anyone that goes on a cruise has to realize that THE BOAT MOVES. As a result, sometimes where it moves to has bad weather and you have to go somewhere else. If you can't be flexible enough to accomodate necessary changes in itinerary, go to Disney World.

[bcd2010]

HAL DOES call it a Hotel Service Charge, and has for several years. It is only on cruise forums that people persist on calling it and considering it a tip! :rolleyes:

 

Absolutely right. I wonder how people who are new to cruising (i.e., started cruising after the HSC was implemented) view it as compared to those who started cruising before.

 

How did HAL introduce the HSC (I don't know the answer to this)? If they said the HSC replaces tipping, people are likely to think of it as an autotip. However they introduced it, the message didn't "take" since so many people are still calling it an autotip. OTOH, does HAL need to care what we call it - it was a business decision that's evidently accomplished what they wanted to accomplish.

 

Maybe they said it was a new policy/charge to ensure they could recruit and retain the best workers. In a practical sense, it seems they still have the (unspoken?) policy of "tipping not required" since they still encourage it, over and above the HSC.

 

One thing I'm reading throughout these posts and threads is that removing the HSC is sometimes done for reasons other than poor service. It's being removed for missed ports, engineering and plumbing problems, etc. In these cases, maybe removing the charge is more satisfyling than venting on a comment card, or perhaps seems more powerful, even if it's targeting the wrong people.

 

Personally, if I have a problem onboard (service, engineering, plumbing, whatever), I'd rather have it addressed and fixed immediately or in a timely manner. I leave the HSC in place but do admit to the angst over whether to tip additionally.

[peaches from georgia]

I wonder how well the "no tipping" business works on the few luxury lines that advertise that. For instance, we got some very interesting mailings from Seaborne, which we'd not considered before because of cost, and looked at a few of their itineraries. In researching I noticed the "no tipping expected or required" statement. I won't name them but I know there are at least a couple of HAL CC'ers who cruise with Seaborne so I wonder how it works for them. I've heard that the service on Seaborne is generally exceptional. I do remember when HAL more or less advertised it was a "no tipping expected or required" line and in fact when out TA booked us on our very first HAL cruise back in the early 90's she made an issue of that. I remember thinking at the time that's pretty cool and was a bit embarrassed when I noticed a lot of people tipping at the end of that cruise. Same on Seaborne? Any of you out there care to comment?

We have a Seabourn cruise booked and know people who are SB cruisers. Tips are included in the cruise fare and, contrary to the old HAL 'no tips required' policy which if you followed that you would have given no tips, when you make final payment you have paid your tips to everyone. I'm sure some people do tip their steward/stewardess extra for extraordinary special service and I know there is a 'crew fund' for those that might wish to add a little extra, but all pax know they have already tipped and tipping is not a topic of discussion or question. Liquor, wine, soft drinks, in-room provided beverages and snacks, and alternative restaurants are also included in the basic cruise fare, so unless you are booking ship's shore excursions or making purchases in the shops you can easily consider your basic fare your total expense for the cruise.

[jtl513]

How did HAL introduce the HSC (I don't know the answer to this)? If they said the HSC replaces tipping, people are likely to think of it as an autotip. However they introduced it, the message didn't "take" since so many people are still calling it an autotip.

Unfortunately, HAL did call it an Auto-tip for a while before changing the terminology, which certainly contributes to many still calling it a tip. I wouldn't even be surprised to find a CD still calling an auto-tip.

One thing I'm reading throughout these posts and threads is that removing the HSC is sometimes done for reasons other than poor service. It's being removed for missed ports, engineering and plumbing problems, etc. In these cases, maybe removing the charge is more satisfyling than venting on a comment card, or perhaps seems more powerful, even if it's targeting the wrong people.

The Know Before You Go attempts to make clear that the only legitimate reason for removing it is inadequate service:

 

Our crew works very hard to make sure that every aspect of

your cruise meets the highest standards. This includes those

crew members who serve you directly, such as Dining Room

wait staff and the stewards who service your stateroom each

day. There are also many others who support their efforts

whom you may never meet, such as galley and laundry

staff. To ensure that the efforts of all of our crew members

are recognized and rewarded, a daily Hotel Service Charge

is automatically added to each guest’s shipboard account.

The Hotel Service Charge is US$11 per guest per day and is

subject to change without notice. If our service exceeds or

fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this

amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage.

(Bolding and underline mine.) I think HAL should take a very hard line on this, and insist that's the ONLY reason that they will accept. Period. Case closed. :)

 

Of course, some will argue that having a working a/c and bathroom is part of "service".

[fridayeyes]

Hmmm, so perhaps we vets here should adjust how we describe the HSC?

 

As in, "The HSC is like the 'resort fee' that is often charged at landside hotels. For exceptional service, you may tip at your own discretion."

[sail7seas]

<snip>

 

Looking at it from the other side of the coin, when something adverse happens, like missing 3 ports, I'd bet that many passengers felt that there was no way to communicate their grievance other than this. After all, all fees are paid by that point. The cruise line has their money, so there's nowhere to go. Personally, I'd rather that they dispute their bar bill or some other charge that is yet to pay, but even that misses the point.

 

<snip>

 

 

 

I think you have a point. Many people felt the reimbursement HAL gave us was insufficient and required a future cruise to reap most of the benefit. They eliminated the tip as a way to increase their 'reimbursement' for the missed ports and change of atmosphere aboard. Many people felt the cruise had ended at the time of the announcement despite the fact all shipboard activities continued. They took it upon themselves to enrich themselves at the expense of hard working crew.

 

They lost sight of the fact, HAL technically did not have to give anything. Would have been horrible public relations etc but they did not HAVE to do anything.

[mallbucks]

with this concept as well. I would rather pay the $11.00 or thereabouts per day up front as part of the cruise fare.

 

The real problem is the entire concept of tipping, which just does not work well given the latest changes in cruising. The answer is simple, just do away with tips (like most of the luxury lines), charge a little more money and pay the crew a fair wage.

 

Hank

[PennyAgain]

People who remove the auto tips and/or don't tip on cruise ships are asking the employees to work for the for almost no wages.

 

That is theft of services as far as I am concerned.

 

We traveled once with a couple who refused to tip on a major up market cruise line and we never traveled with them again.

 

In fact, we hardly spoke to them after that trip. We consider them to be sneaky people.

[peaches from georgia]

The problem with HAL's old 'no tipping required' policy was not only that many people read it as if tips were included, but many TAs told them that. Our tablemates on our first cruise on the Rotterdam were astounded that tips were not included as they had been told the opposite by their TA. They were thankful that we told them that they had not prepaid tips and gave generous gratuities on the last night to everyone. The subject only came up with them on the last afternoon because they wanted to tip the Neptune concierge and asked what we planned to do about that and then we brought up the stewards. They were shocked that they had been so led astray by their TA.

 

The lines that now include all tips in their cruise fare make it abundantly clear that tips are included, not that tips are not required.

[HeatherInFlorida]

...........................

 

Of course, some will argue that having a working a/c and bathroom is part of "service".

 

They do and they have ... very recently in fact.

 

And if it truly is a "hotel service charge" and not an automatic forced "gratuity", then why are we allowed to adjust it at the end of the cruise? We certainly can't do that at a resort when it's a resort fee or at a hotel when it's a service charge ... even at a restaurant when they add a 20% "service charge".

 

So they can call it whatever they want. It's a forced gratuity. We can argue whether that's right or wrong and have many times since it was enacted, but let's call it what it is. You can gussy it up with a new word, but if it walks like a duck, it probably is.

[jtl513]

And if it truly is a "hotel service charge" and not an automatic forced "gratuity", then why are we allowed to adjust it at the end of the cruise? We certainly can't do that at a resort when it's a resort fee or at a hotel when it's a service charge ... even at a restaurant when they add a 20% "service charge".

You're preaching to the choir. I said in post #49 that I believe it should be non-removable, or failing that, a very hard line should be taken that it can ONLY be removed for failure of service by people in the pool. (Maintenance people are not.)

[fridayeyes]

Heather - agreed. :) Which is why I would like it to be non-removable. It's too ambiguous as it is, and in the ambiguity lie the problems. If there is a way to game the system, people will game the system. It's human nature. (with apologies for the cynicism)

[serendipity1499]

IIRC BruceMuzz has said they do have unions and negotiated contracts.

 

EDIT: here's a post:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=24366297

 

Thank you for posting this..I've been racking my brain trying to find his post..

BTW..for all those who don't know who Bruce Muzz is: I quote one of his posts..

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruisin36

And who are you and what ship do you own???

 

For the past 35 years I am a Hotel Manager on 28 different cruise ships, with 8 different cruise lines.

I don't own any ships. Unquote

In Sept 2007, Bruce Muzz in Post no. 21 fully explains crew earnings in the "Ask a Cruise Question" forum..See his Post No. 21 in this thread.....

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=620368&page=2

In this informative post he explains the make up of the new Cruise Passengers & also makes a telling statement about the new Cruise Passengers..

" And for the past 10 years or so, about 30% of these cruisers (on average) saved a bundle by not tipping the staff during the cruise."

 

His last paragraph says it all: "But at the end of the day, the auto-tip system keeps salaries up to an acceptable level - keeping the remaining experienced service staff working on the ships, rather than in hotels back home."

 

It has always been my understanding stewards do have unions.

 

It is also my understanding HAL provides monthly mninimum pay guarantee from combination salary and tips.

 

You are also correct Sail, & somewhere in my documents I downloaded it, but it will take a bit of time to find it..;);)

Phillip217, another Cruise Line Officer mentioned this in one of his posts:

"Most cruise line waiters are promised a MINIMUM GUARANTEED SALARY of around US$1600 - US$2200 PER MONTH."

 

And you are correct as it was also explained that way by

Joyce Gleason-Adamidis in "Under the Captain's Table" a Cruise Critic article in 2006..

If any one in the Crew doesn't get that minimum salary then the Cruise lines according to their contract, has to add monies to the pool in order for all of them make their monthly minimum..

 

Also agree with those who believe the HSC should be non-removable!

 

Betty

[m steve]

who cruise but never eat in the dining room so they don't have to tip and remove their auto tip. I don't know if the tip their cabin steward but doubt it. And they have a load of dough. We won't cruise with them. They also put 3 people in a inside cabin.

[maxout]

who cruise but never eat in the dining room so they don't have to tip and remove their auto tip. I don't know if the tip their cabin steward but doubt it. And they have a load of dough. We won't cruise with them. They also put 3 people in a inside cabin.

 

Is that Squeak and Rusty Gate?? ;) :p :D

[Himself]

If Automatic Tipping is removed from one's bill there is nothing to stop one from tipping directly to the crew member.

[Randyk47]

If Automatic Tipping is removed from one's bill there is nothing to stop one from tipping directly to the crew member.

 

That's true but out of hand tips from passengers who have removed the "auto-tip" from their bill are supposedly turned in and added to the consolidated tip fund. How they police that I don't know but that's the official policy. May make the passenger feel better to tip out of hand but doesn't do the receiver much good if they have to turn it in and then only get a portion back when the fund is distributed.

[Opinions]

It has always been my understanding stewards do have unions.

 

 

Anyone who has ever belonged to a labor union knows that there are all types of "unions"...Some are very powerful and are very sucessful in getting benefits for their members...Others are weak and some are even called "company unions".

[Jade13]

 

Phillip217, another Cruise Line Officer mentioned this in one of his posts:

"Most cruise line waiters are promised a MINIMUM GUARANTEED SALARY of around US$1600 - US$2200 PER MONTH."

 

And you are correct as it was also explained that way by

Joyce Gleason-Adamidis in "Under the Captain's Table" a Cruise Critic article in 2006..

 

If any one in the Crew doesn't get that minimum salary then the Cruise lines according to their contract, has to add monies to the pool in order for all of them make their monthly minimum..

 

Also agree with those who believe the HSC should be non-removable!

 

Betty

 

I learned something new today.

[Don Haynes]

Thank you for posting this..I've been racking my brain trying to find his post..

BTW..for all those who don't know who Bruce Muzz is: I quote one of his posts..

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruisin36

And who are you and what ship do you own???

 

For the past 35 years I am a Hotel Manager on 28 different cruise ships, with 8 different cruise lines.

I don't own any ships. Unquote

In Sept 2007, Bruce Muzz in Post no. 21 fully explains crew earnings in the "Ask a Cruise Question" forum..See his Post No. 21 in this thread.....

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=620368&page=2

In this informative post he explains the make up of the new Cruise Passengers & also makes a telling statement about the new Cruise Passengers..

" And for the past 10 years or so, about 30% of these cruisers (on average) saved a bundle by not tipping the staff during the cruise."

 

His last paragraph says it all: "But at the end of the day, the auto-tip system keeps salaries up to an acceptable level - keeping the remaining experienced service staff working on the ships, rather than in hotels back home."

 

 

 

You are also correct Sail, & somewhere in my documents I downloaded it, but it will take a bit of time to find it..;);)

Phillip217, another Cruise Line Officer mentioned this in one of his posts:

"Most cruise line waiters are promised a MINIMUM GUARANTEED SALARY of around US$1600 - US$2200 PER MONTH."

 

And you are correct as it was also explained that way by

Joyce Gleason-Adamidis in "Under the Captain's Table" a Cruise Critic article in 2006..

If any one in the Crew doesn't get that minimum salary then the Cruise lines according to their contract, has to add monies to the pool in order for all of them make their monthly minimum..

 

Also agree with those who believe the HSC should be non-removable!

 

Betty

 

While that may sound good for a US waiter working a 40 hour workweek, its not a good salary for an international worker working with a 70 hour workweek...

[Hlitner]

Actually the entire topic of "tipping" on cruise lines is enough to give me the mal de mer! To put it bluntly, the current tipping polices are a scam perpetuated by the cruise industry. Tips or gratuities are supposed to be voluntary payments given to various service staff for direct service. It is a gratuity, not a mandatory payment! The cruise lines prefer to market lower prices (it sells) and have this nice scam where they underpay the staff and darn near demand that the passengers pay so-called tips. These tips are no longer tips but simply a price add-on of approximately $12 per passenger day. The money is divided among the ships crew by a formula which has nothing to do with direct service (even some supervisors share in the pot). The simple and obvious solution is to increase the cost of the cruise by $12 a day and specify "no tipping." HA used to have a no-tipping policy and its a shame they changed. But the biggest part of this cruise line "scam" is to convince passengers to feel guilty if they do not like this bad policy. We are supposed to pay the crew because the cruise line doesn't pay the appropriate wage? How many folks tip flight attendents on the airlines (who are generally underpaid)? How many of you send tips down to the laundry rooms in your hotels? Whether or not a cruise line pays their staff properly should not be an issue for the customer...but rather between the cruise line and their staff. The cruise line's managment is essentially asking the customer to feel guilty because the cruise line underpays their staff? And we buy into this scam? It seems to me we are the fools!

 

Hank

[serendipity1499]

While that may sound good for a US waiter working a 40 hour workweek, its not a good salary for an international worker working with a 70 hour workweek...

 

I never said it was..All I was doing was pointing out to another poster who said "they should have a union" that the Crew do belong to a Union & have a contract which guarantees them a minimum salary..

I've talked to many crew members who are very happy with their HAL jobs..Last year on the Statendam, one wine steward told us that he is sacrificing now for his wife & children..He said that when he finally gets to stop working on HAL he will have enough money to put his two kids through college & also start a business of his own, at home...

You have to remember, crews get, room & board, uniforms, medical & dental & if they work their full contract their air fare is paid by the cruise line to go home for several months..Therefore most of the monies they are making in the HSC & their additional tips, is for incidentals &/or sent home...

Cheers.....:)Betty

[serendipity1499]

<SNIP>

 

HA used to have a no-tipping policy and its a shame they changed. But the biggest part of this cruise line "scam" is to convince passengers to feel guilty if they do not like this bad policy. We are supposed to pay the crew because the cruise line doesn't pay the appropriate wage?

 

HAL never had a no tiping policy...Hal's policy was "Tips are not required" NCL & some others changed this policy in 2002 & HAL followed suit in 2004..Bruce Muzz explains why, it was changed in his post which is very informative..

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showt...=620368&page=2In this informative post he explains the make up of the new Cruise Passengers & also makes a telling statement about the new Cruise Passengers..

 

" And for the past 10 years or so, about 30% of these cruisers (on average) saved a bundle by not tipping the staff during the cruise."

How many folks tip flight attendents on the airlines (who are generally underpaid)?

 

<SNIP>

 

Hank

 

How do you know flight attendants are generally underpaid? Were you once a flight Attendant? ;)

I was in the International Airline Business for 32 years & had many Flight Attendants as Friends...In those days, our flight Attendants made quite a bit more, than I did even though I was in Management..Many were able to purchase condo's in Hawaii or Fla. as a vacation home...

The latest figures, according to data from the Association of Flight Attendants for the year 2000 follows:

Beginning median salaries were $14, 847 per year in 2000..

Median annual flight attendant salaries were $38,820 in 2000.

The middle 50 percent earned between $28,200 and $56,610. The lowest 10 percent earned salaries of less than $18,090, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $83,630...

http://www.cabincrewjobs.com/flight-attendant-salaries.html

http://www.flightattendantcareer.com/faq.htm

Realize that starting salaries for Flight Attendants are still low, but as they gain seniority they can make very good money & many have health insurance, & a pension...Their Hotels are paid for & they get a per diem for meals..Please don't feel sorry for them..Most of them Love their Jobs & would not five them up for a desk job..I always envied them but in those days at 5'1" I was too short..

Cheers....:)Betty

[Down-Unders]

I couldn't help but notice that one of the reactions to the cancellation of 3 port visits on Maasdam was for certain passengers to "opt out" of the automatic tipping right at the last moment.

 

Disappointment is one thing: dissatisfaction with performance of the crew is another; punishing crew members by removing the automatic tipping from one's bill just at about the end of a cruise is IMO simply unfair.

 

I believe it's time Seattle established a new policy.

 

On embarkation, each passenger is handed a simple 1, 2 or 3 paragraph letter from HAL explaining the company's automatic tipping policy; then comes a simple sentence in BOLD TYPE: the passenger has the option of removing the auto tip from his/her account for a period of 72 hours or 3 days from sailing; after that, the option is no longer available.

 

IMHO, what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

Automatic tip should be non negotible never ever be able to be removed. Pay the 11dollars per day and give extra in cash to crew, you will feel good about yourself.

[Jacqueline]

I was on the Westerdam the first season of the auto tip as it was then called. They had a table set up in the lobby for those who wanted to alter it. They must have put their most resolute staffers at these tables, but there was nothing they could say to change minds, very much. One comment I overheard were passengers removing tips for the 3/4 persons in the cabin. I guess they did not have beds to be made and never had a server in a restaurant. Then there were the usual people who "did not agree" with the poicy.