NCL stop the 15% gratuity on drinks, please

[briansnel]

No, I didn't say it was "insulting." I pointed out that it shows little understanding of the very limited job options of much of the world's population. It's a very insular view: I can easily leave a job if I'm not happy; why can't everyone?

 

This is your opinion and I salute that.

[sdmike]

Hmmmm, I'm confused by this, Mike. In many parts of Europe, bottled water is much less expensive than in the U.S. The exceptions tend to be restaurants when you order water for the table -- and anywhere near a tourist spot.

 

Also, there are very few places in Europe where an American shouldn't feel fine about drinking tap water.

 

I say this recognizing that your preference may be for bottled water, but a lot of people reading these threads haven't been to Europe yet, and I wanted to clarify this for anyone who might freak out at the potential cost of bottled water/status of tap water.

 

What I meant was when I asked for water in Amsterdam, anywhere, they gave me a small glass bottle of water poured into an even smaller glass. It also applied to Brussels, The Hague, Rotterdam, and a few western German cities we visited. My Dutch friend told me they don't serve water like they do in the US, free tap water in large quantities. I wasn't implying the tap water wasn't any good. I would have been fine with it if they would have been willing to provide me some. :)

Edited February 14, 2011 by sdmike

[che5904]

If you pay any other employee outside the service industry additional monies to do their job it may be construed as a bribe, especially relating to government employees.

 

I fully understand that prices are low because the salaries are lower. This is also the reason clothing and merchandise from Asia is cheaper. Does not make it right, just cheaper.

 

Would you not be happier paying a few dollars more knowing an equitable wage was being paid? When I tip I would like to do so knowing it is a special privelege, not a necessity for the survival of my server.

 

Tips are not rights - they are priveleges.

 

But as you said Nita we are differing cultures and from this stems differing opinions.

 

Very good points! :)

[dockrocker]

What I meant was when I asked for water in Amsterdam, anywhere, they gave me a small glass bottle of water poured into an even smaller glass. It also applied to Brussels, The Hague, Rotterdam, and a few western German cities we visited. My Dutch friend told me they don't serve water like they do in the US, free tap water in large quantities. I wasn't implying the tap water wasn't any good. I would have been fine with it if they would have been willing to provide me some. :)

 

In that case you ARE better off with scotch!

[sdmike]

I guess my last comment on this topic. I don't thing the ships follow "US Culture" because most cruisers are from the US as some have stated. I think what we have here is an industry standard that is legal and most profitable for the lines. It just happens that those of us in the US are more used to it because several US-based industries play the same wage game for the same reasons, while it's not the norm in other countries. Whether you feel it's right, wrong, irresponsible, immoral, or whatever, the fact remains that it's quite the norm in the industry and we can either chose to cruise or do something else with our vacation money. The lines don't do it because they want to operate in a way familiar with US customers. They do it because it is better for them economically.

[sdmike]

In that case you ARE better off with scotch!

 

I found a very nice "Belgian White" beer that I could find all over the region that I think was actually cheaper than Coke by the oz. I wish I could remember the name of it...

 

:)

 

Edited February 14, 2011 by sdmike

[dockrocker]

Would you not be happier paying a few dollars more knowing an equitable wage was being paid?

 

Absolutely, although it's important to note that it will come to more than a few dollars more. The problem we have is the ingrained expectation of receiving rock bottom-priced products -- I think that most consumers from certain (not all by any means) wealthy nations are really married to those price expectations and would absolutely balk at paying higher prices so that those making/delivering the product can have a living wage. In other words, people will play all kinds of mind games with themselves to not have to review the facts on how little most of the world actually makes, as long as their cruises, clothing, electronics, food, etc. stay cheap. We've seen some of that in this thread.

 

I was interested in your comment about ships around Oz removing autogratuities. What happens to the crew's pay as a result? Is it significantly raised, and if so, are cruise fares raised to cover it? Are Aussies okay with that?

 

I don't disagree with you that American tipping habits create an unfair expectation for the rest of the world, and I sympathize. But I'm not sure what we can do about it without seriously penalizing the worker in the short and perhaps also the long run. I do not think we will be successful at getting Americans, for example, to rise up en masse and demand higher pay for international labor. Most of the U.S. still doesn't get how much wage disparity there is right here -- and how much that gap has widened in the last 30 years as real wages have tumbled.

Edited February 14, 2011 by dockrocker

[dockrocker]

I guess my last comment on this topic. I don't thing the ships follow "US Culture" because most cruisers are from the US as some have stated. I think what we have here is an industry standard that is legal and most profitable for the lines. It just happens that those of us in the US are more used to it because several US-based industries play the same wage game for the same reasons, while it's not the norm in other countries. Whether you feel it's right, wrong, irresponsible, immoral, or whatever, the fact remains that it's quite the norm in the industry and we can either chose to cruise or do something else with our vacation money. The lines don't do it because they want to operate in a way familiar with US customers. They do it because it is better for them economically.

 

I think this is an excellent point. But what is better for them economically wouldn't necessarily fly unless the majority of cruisers were okay with the practice. The latter enables the former.

[sdmike]

I think this is an excellent point. But what is better for them economically wouldn't necessarily fly unless the majority of cruisers were okay with the practice. The latter enables the former.

 

I agree

[SeaShark]

Would you not be happier paying a few dollars more knowing an equitable wage was being paid?

 

This is a loaded question that presumes facts not in evidence...

 

What is the definition of an "equitable wage" and who makes that determination?

 

 

Is the equitable wage based on the standards of the country where the cruise line operates?

 

Is the equitable wage based on the standards of the country where the cruise passenger resides?

 

Is the equitable wage based on the standards of the country where the cruise worker resides?

 

 

What is "equitable" could change very much depending on how the questions above are answered.

 

 

For example, a person in job "x" may make $25/hr on average in the United States.

 

The cruise line could hire a person to do job "x" and pay them $7/hr on average.

 

A United States citizen would think that the person working for the cruise line was grossly underpaid since they base their opinion on US standards.

 

However....

 

In the 3rd world country where the cruise line worker resides, the average wage for a person performing job "x" is just $2 per hour (if there is work available).

 

So, if you lived in the 3rd world country where your profession paid $2 per hour and the cruise line paid $7, would you think taking that job would mean you were grossly underpaid?

[PleaseNo]

Since the 15% is only on drinks, the only ones paying it are the ones using the service. That is, those buying drinks. So I don't understand your sentence saying 'not charge others who do not use this service'. The BAR gratuity is only charged on drinks so it is NOT charging those who don't drink. It's not charging others who do not use the service.

 

My reply was in response to a previous point, and taken individually as you have means it is out of context.

[briansnel]

A little history to explain my personal opinion and investment in this debate.

 

I am a tour guide in South Africa and earn a living wage. I pay my "bills and pills" with my salary and "frills and thrills" with any tips I may earn.

 

In South Africa we are governed by labour laws that set the standards employers and employees must adhere to.

 

Although we are regarded as developing, third world or call it what you will - we are fully aware of the disparity of tipping culture internationally.

 

No South African in the service industry expects a tip, (but sure does appreciate it.) Soliciting tips is frowned upon and in many instances grounds for dismissal.

 

We know our guests are from all corners, cultures and creeds of the globe. We adjust to their culture as hosts and do this to make them feel as at home as possible. Australian guests we know do not tip and this cannot influence their experience. It would be bad hosting at the very least. For this reason we can safely rely on our salaries without relying on tips.

 

When I travel I know to adopt to the culture of the host country. Being in the service industry and with my background it is sometimes a little discouraging to see what I am expected to tip for. I do it, but some of it seems excessive to me. And on occasion when I knew not to tip and was asked, the look on my face must be priceless.

 

I wish for a guidebook that sets out tipping cultures around the world cos that is one of the big questions we always get asked. "What is the tipping culture in South Africa?". Or maybe we can start working towards a global standard. But then we come full circle and may as well just include it into pricing. And setting a standard would make a global village that much more of the same.

 

So I guess my point is whilst the US dominates the cruising market they will call the shots. I do not have to like it but I insist on being a gracious and appreciatve guest so I will adhere. Well thats if I wanna continue cruising - and I do.

 

All I ask is for some understanding that we are all different. And Thank Heavens for that. Makes the travel experience all the richer for it.

[pex]

I suspect the rant is partly for fun, but I try to adapt (clumsily at times) to whatever culture I'm in. The United States has for some reason adopted an admittedly irrational tipping culture. NCL policies reflect this. But it is what it is. I personally save $$ with the 15% tip because I (and everyone I know) typically tip $1 for a drink in the US. You rarely see coins being left on the bar anymore.

 

I don't think this has been mentioned, though. The 15% automatic tip surcharge is included simply because it would be too confusing to explain optional tipping to passengers who are already trying to wrap their brain around the $12 service charge. The drink tips can't be included in the $12 service charge because it simply wouldn't be fair to the non or nominal alcohol consumers. Depending upon the study you read, 20% of customers consume 80% of the alcohol.

 

So, I happily pay the 15%.

 

 

 

But its that sort of experience that i was looking for to maybe get an understanding of why there is an auto tip culture on NCL.

Edited February 14, 2011 by pex
typo

[sjbdtz]

I wish for a guidebook that sets out tipping cultures around the world cos that is one of the big questions we always get asked. "What is the tipping culture in South Africa?". .

 

 

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=top+tips+on+tipping+around+the+world

 

 

 

You're welcome.

[che5904]

A little history to explain my personal opinion and investment in this debate.

 

I am a tour guide in South Africa and earn a living wage. I pay my "bills and pills" with my salary and "frills and thrills" with any tips I may earn.

 

In South Africa we are governed by labour laws that set the standards employers and employees must adhere to.

 

Although we are regarded as developing, third world or call it what you will - we are fully aware of the disparity of tipping culture internationally.

 

No South African in the service industry expects a tip, (but sure does appreciate it.) Soliciting tips is frowned upon and in many instances grounds for dismissal.

 

We know our guests are from all corners, cultures and creeds of the globe. We adjust to their culture as hosts and do this to make them feel as at home as possible. Australian guests we know do not tip and this cannot influence their experience. It would be bad hosting at the very least. For this reason we can safely rely on our salaries without relying on tips.

 

When I travel I know to adopt to the culture of the host country. Being in the service industry and with my background it is sometimes a little discouraging to see what I am expected to tip for. I do it, but some of it seems excessive to me. And on occasion when I knew not to tip and was asked, the look on my face must be priceless.

 

I wish for a guidebook that sets out tipping cultures around the world cos that is one of the big questions we always get asked. "What is the tipping culture in South Africa?". Or maybe we can start working towards a global standard. But then we come full circle and may as well just include it into pricing. And setting a standard would make a global village that much more of the same.

 

So I guess my point is whilst the US dominates the cruising market they will call the shots. I do not have to like it but I insist on being a gracious and appreciatve guest so I will adhere. Well thats if I wanna continue cruising - and I do.

 

All I ask is for some understanding that we are all different. And Thank Heavens for that. Makes the travel experience all the richer for it.

 

Wow very well written and insightful. Cheers to you! :)

[electro]

I guess my last comment on this topic. I don't thing the ships follow "US Culture" because most cruisers are from the US as some have stated. I think what we have here is an industry standard that is legal and most profitable for the lines. It just happens that those of us in the US are more used to it because several US-based industries play the same wage game for the same reasons, while it's not the norm in other countries. Whether you feel it's right, wrong, irresponsible, immoral, or whatever, the fact remains that it's quite the norm in the industry and we can either chose to cruise or do something else with our vacation money. The lines don't do it because they want to operate in a way familiar with US customers. They do it because it is better for them economically.

 

I totally agree that this is a cruise line culture and not a US one.

I've just sailed on MSC over New Years in the Med. This is an Italian line with 90% European passengers and they had a DSC of 7 euros pp/pd.

 

Where I have a problem with the 15% on bar tabs is how it applies to wine by the bottle.

When I order a bottle of wine at dinner, it is no more work for the waiter to open my $120 bottle of wine than it is to open a $25 bottle of wine, but I have to tip almost 5 times as much as the guy buying the $25 bottle.

I think there should be a flat fee tip for wine by the bottle, say $5. That is about 15% of the low end wine.

 

Lois

Edited February 14, 2011 by electro
spelling

[che5904]

I suspect the rant is partly for fun, but I try to adapt (clumsily at times) to whatever culture I'm in. The United States has for some reason adopted an admittedly irrational tipping culture. NCL policies reflect this. But it is what it is. I personally save $$ with the 15% tip because I (and everyone I know) typically tip $1 for a drink in the US. You rarely see coins being left on the bar anymore.

 

I don't think this has been mentioned, though. The 15% automatic tip surcharge is included simply because it would be too confusing to explain optional tipping to passengers who are already trying to wrap their brain around the $12 service charge. The drink tips can't be included in the $12 service charge because it simply wouldn't be fair to the non or nominal alcohol consumers. Depending upon the study you read, 20% of customers consume 80% of the alcohol.

 

So, I happily pay the 15%.

 

I really can't dispute what you are saying and for the most part agree on that reasoning of why they do it (not what they do). On saying that I will reiterate then that NCL be upfront and not claim one thing on their web site and one when you board the ship!

 

NCL Quote from FAQs: certain staff positions provide service on an individual basis to only some guests. We encourage those guests to acknowledge good service from these staff members with appropriate gratuities. For example, for guests purchasing bar drinks the RECOMMENDED gratuity is 15 percent.

And then once onboard add an AUTOMATIC 15% gratuity. That in my opinion is blindsiding the customer and just plain bad business practice.

[kkorman]

You are making a big to-do about nothing. Let me explain why.

 

For the purposes of this example, we consider an item priced at $1. With the 15% tip that would come to $1.15.

 

You advocate removing the auto-tip. Fine. As a result of the removal, the cruise line raises the price to $1.15.

 

 

You pay the same price either way.

 

 

 

So....

 

 

You can either pay $1.15 for the item or you can pay $1 plus $0.15. Either way you pay the same.

 

 

Is it really worth all the hub-bub in the end?

 

 

The cruise line would probably raise it to $1.22 to cover taxes on the income instead of tip.

[SeaShark]

The cruise line would probably raise it to $1.22 to cover taxes on the income instead of tip.

 

There would be no increase.

 

At a price of $1 plus $0.15 tip, NCL keeps $1 and the employee gets $0.15

 

At a price of $1.15 with no tip, NCL keeps $1 and the employee gets $0.15

 

 

The out of pocket for the consumer is the same.

 

The employee gets the same.

 

In the end, NCL gets the same as the increase in gross income is offset by the increase in wages paid...therefore the tax liability does not change.

[kkorman]

There would be no increase.

 

At a price of $1 plus $0.15 tip, NCL keeps $1 and the employee gets $0.15

 

At a price of $1.15 with no tip, NCL keeps $1 and the employee gets $0.15

 

 

The out of pocket for the consumer is the same.

 

The employee gets the same.

 

In the end, NCL gets the same as the increase in gross income is offset by the increase in wages paid...therefore the tax liability does not change.

 

All I was saying is that if NCL has to charge it as anything other than tip it is considered income which is taxed. I was just joking.

[SeaShark]

All I was saying is that if NCL has to charge it as anything other than tip it is considered income which is taxed. I was just joking.

 

Yes, I realized that. However, no matter how it is charged, if everyone's net income stays the same, then so does the tax amount since you don't pay taxes on the gross amount.

 

 

And FWIW...it is usually easier to ensure that an attempt at humor is seen as such if you follow it with either the ;) smilie or the letters 'jk'.

[PleaseNo]

As i stated previously i have now come to realise i was WRONG on how the bar staff are paid. I started this thread in shear frustration about all the extra hidden tips. And despite what many of you will say they are hidden.

I defy (but am more than willing to admit i'm wrong if shown otherwise, and so far nobody has) anybody to find in the NCL UK edition brochure a breakdown of additional tips required other than those i have already paid.

 

This cruise is sold by TA's AND NCL as an all inclusive cruise WITH pre paid tips (in the UK). Just today walking around several TA's they ALL had adverts for different cruises with different lines all stating the same, all inclusive and pre paid tips.

 

Now again it is no fault of mine that i purchased this cruise in good faith only to become utterly disillusioned about the stealth tips required. I state again, i will tip and have every intention of tipping. We upgraded to the CY, in doing so i paid nearly an additional £3000 for the privilege. Once again no where does it state what i have now come to understand the levels of tips e.g. $10 pppn for the butler, same again for concierge and $10-$20 pd for the kids club. This will total an additional $500 !!! Having paid this much extra i had every right to make the assumption it includes a proper wage for the butler and concierge, with tips in ADDITION for extras services above what i would expect from the position (it now seems my tips are their wage). I am a European first time cruiser sailing on a European cruise on a multi cultural multi national cruise line. Why at any point should i have 'expected' to treat this cruise as if i was visiting the US for a holiday.

 

Other posters have taken the boring easy option of 'if you don't like it don't do it' or even worse 'its the OP responsibility to inform himself' . Well the whole reason i am on this forum was to learn and further educate myself, indeed if i had not done so i would have been innocent on this cruise of the true effect my tips will have. As regards not doing the cruise, well unfortunately i cannot afford to lose my deposit of over £1000. Different rules apply in the UK to the lovely relaxed purchasing agreements enjoyed in the US. For instance we do not enjoy the pleasure of dropping prices as the US does.

 

NCL could and should increase their wage AND increase thus the price of a cruise. If as everybody states we are all going to pay it in the end why not pay it at the start, or is it because posters will not get that warm fuzzy feeling in their soul that you have 'saved' the poor from destitution by tipping. I argue the only people benefiting from the tipping culture are people who want to feel good about it, not the poor and needy.

(Now there are many many holes in the above statement, and it is harsh, but maybe people should just pause for a moment and realise there is some merit in such an outrageous statement).

 

Our continued support of cheap cruise's by NCL and other cruise lines will never ever benefit those members of staff. No matter how many tips we give. Don't kid yourselves.

[daffodiliaz]

From NCL.co.uk: What extras do I need to budget for?

 

Extras on board, which are in U.S.$ include:

• Service charge, if not already pre-paid

Plus

• Additional tips on board and ashore and any other item not expressly included in the fare.

 

I guess it just depends what was "expressly included" in your fare. For what you're paying, I don't blame you for being upset about the butler/concierge tipping. The drinks are a different story...

[sdmike]

There would be no increase.

 

At a price of $1 plus $0.15 tip, NCL keeps $1 and the employee gets $0.15

 

At a price of $1.15 with no tip, NCL keeps $1 and the employee gets $0.15

 

 

The out of pocket for the consumer is the same.

 

The employee gets the same.

 

In the end, NCL gets the same as the increase in gross income is offset by the increase in wages paid...therefore the tax liability does not change.

 

Not necessarily. I don't know the details for the cruise industry (whether it applies to where the company is based or ships are flagged) but in the US I believe there are employment taxes that make it more expensive if that $.15 hits the books.

[DMH15]

I agree with you that the auto-gratuity policy, now the norm, is unfair. Similarly, I dislike the auto-DSC policy, also now the norm. For the most part, anything beyond the basic dining options & standard entertainment are surcharged. I have always tipped fairly for services rendered on our cruises. I, like you, just don't like having it hidden in everything automatically, disguised in one form or another.

 

I prefer the good ol' days of cruising when you tipped separately for services rendered. Auto-gratuity & auto-DSC'ing have, in my opinion, diluted the level of service delivery by staff since there is no immediate, direct incentive. In essence lousy service is rewarded with an auto-tip, unfair to the recipient (us) & to those staff that otherwise earn a fair gratuity.

 

And yes, auto-tipping a bartender 15% to open bottle or pour a beverage, ordered directly by the customer at the bar, is high-seas robbery. :mad:

I will state the obvious... You do realize why auto gratuity was implemented??? Too many skipped out.