Is HAL moving downscale?

[TeamBozo]

We just returned from a 35 day Hawaii/Tahiti cruise on the Westerdam. Although we enjoyed ourselves, there were many troubling signs of cost cutting and crowding that give the impression the HAL is moving downscale in the cruise marketplace. We've done many cruises with HAL and love the service and ships. But there seem to be too many passengers competing for space in the activities, theater, etc. The menu is heavier on standard entrees with fewer high-end choices (it was over 3 weeks before we saw a lobster tail). Gym classes, computer classes, dance classes and shows in the evening were quite full---often to the point of not being turned away due to lack of space. Our travel documents listed 10 formal nights, but there were only 7 in 5 weeks.

There were many other things I could list where it was apparent that HAL is cutting back.

 

Is this a conscious decision by HAL to move out of the premium segment and become a more mainstream cruise line? Some of their cruise prices are quite attractive (low) and I wonder if they are on a cost cutting program to make it work. Have you also noticed a decline in some of these areas?

[igraf]

I was on the Westerdam for a much shorter cruise in September. Your impressions were generally different than mine, though I imagine that the difference has a lot to do with the length of your cruise and the large number of sea days on your cruise.

 

Having said that, I do concur that that many activities on the Vista class ships have so little space for participants that one wonders why they even bother. The cooking classes that have room for about dozen or so active particpants (out of ~2000 passengers) comes to mind. It wouldn't be so bad if they had a large number activities to choose from, but they generally don't.

 

On the other hand, the gym classes and the late show were poorly attended on my cruise. Again, the number of sea days may have factored here.

 

igraf

 

 

 

We just returned from a 35 day Hawaii/Tahiti cruise on the Westerdam. Although we enjoyed ourselves, there were many troubling signs of cost cutting and crowding that give the impression the HAL is moving downscale in the cruise marketplace. We've done many cruises with HAL and love the service and ships. But there seem to be too many passengers competing for space in the activities, theater, etc. The menu is heavier on standard entrees with fewer high-end choices (it was over 3 weeks before we saw a lobster tail). Gym classes, computer classes, dance classes and shows in the evening were quite full---often to the point of not being turned away due to lack of space. Our travel documents listed 10 formal nights, but there were only 7 in 5 weeks.

There were many other things I could list where it was apparent that HAL is cutting back.

 

Is this a conscious decision by HAL to move out of the premium segment and become a more mainstream cruise line? Some of their cruise prices are quite attractive (low) and I wonder if they are on a cost cutting program to make it work. Have you also noticed a decline in some of these areas?

[Jemima]

I'd guess that more passengers than usual chose to attend shows and activities. It seems unlikely there'd be lots of 3 and 4 in a cabin on a 35 day cruise when nearly all schools are in session. Also, your cruise did have quite a few sea days.

I've read that the grands and world have slightly fewer formal nights than the typical 2 per week. Maybe that's also true for 30 or 35 day cruises.

[wander]

My guess is that some of the differences you note simply have to do with the number of guests. Within the past 5 months I have cruised on a Vista Class ship and an R class ship. While overall there is more space on the Vista ships, when it comes to specific spaces (Crow's Nest, Ocean Bar, Theater, Cooking Demo site, etc. the size is not much different between the ships and there are so many more folks on board. Say only 5 % of passengers want to participate in a specific activity - that means that approximately 40 more people in the same space - crowded. Just my thoughts when really trying to understand why spaces seemed to be more crowded on the Eurodam It certainly has more space but why did I feel more crowded at specific activities?

[catl331]

Just my thoughts when really trying to understand why spaces seemed to be more crowded on the Eurodam It certainly has more space but why did I feel more crowded at specific activities?

There are almost 200 more people on the Signature ships than on the Vistas, therefore the probability of any given space or activity being full is higher. This is most apparent IMO in the Lido.

[Typhoon1]

It's called Carnivalization.

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

 

 

Is this a conscious decision by HAL to move out of the premium segment and become a more mainstream cruise line? Some of their cruise prices are quite attractive (low) and I wonder if they are on a cost cutting program to make it work. Have you also noticed a decline in some of these areas?

 

 

How low can they charge and still maintain the quality product we all seek?

If people are not willing to pay, what can they expect to get? It's all dollars and cents. When a great many are squeezing to get the last $5 off the fare, HAL will have to squeeze and take caviar off the menus...... (for example).

 

When people are willing to pay a decent fare, we can expect to be offered more upscale items.

I sometimes think the menus are becoming more 'pedestrian' but that's, for the most part, okay with me. I find I eat more simply these days so I'm not looking for the heavy, intricate cuisine on which we used to dine but I know it isn't alright with everyone.

 

 

 

JMO.......

[Krazy Kruizers]

I was on the Westerdam for a much shorter cruise in September. Your impressions were generally different than mine, though I imagine that the difference has a lot to do with the length of your cruise and the large number of sea days on your cruise.

 

Having said that, I do concur that that many activities on the Vista class ships have so little space for participants that one wonders why they even bother. The cooking classes that have room for about dozen or so active particpants (out of ~2000 passengers) comes to mind. It wouldn't be so bad if they had a large number activities to choose from, but they generally don't.

 

On the other hand, the gym classes and the late show were poorly attended on my cruise. Again, the number of sea days may have factored here.

 

igraf

 

When the cooking classe were introduced several years ago -- they were/are ALWAYs limited to 12 people per class. Reducing of staff in recent years has/had no influence on those classes.

[Krazy Kruizers]

As for Lobster tails -- no big deal there as far as I am concerned. JMO -- they are awful -- too salty and too small.

The digital workshop classes have been popular since they were introduced. Being on such a long cruise -- you should have caught on right away -- get there early!!

[TWOFERTWO]

I find myself in agreement with OP. This is the trend with ALL cruise lines, even the the high priced ones.

 

I just glad that HAL hasn't started the fuel sur-charge, as they say, they reserve the right to do. Cruise prices have risen, but not as much as all the costs to run a cruise.

 

Just think. AIRLINES!

 

Hope this thread doesn't turn ugly. :)

[kazu]

Ok, maybe missing the boat (hope not :rolleyes:), but, if I want to go to a culinary class, I'm going to register on day one. Digital workshops - if they are for me - I will go early. Just makes sense.

 

You have to remember there is only so much room at each of these activities. I have seen them relatively empty and also packed. Depends upon the passengers, etc.

 

I don't think there is any change here or that HAL is going down hill by this. It's a matter of how many people can be there and either planning (if only 12) or getting there early. it really depends upon your cruise and the pax on it. As to the lobster? Just wonder if that was the first place they could pick it up or if there were other great things they offered instead:confused: We`ll see in 7 days:)

[CowPrincess]

Dinnertime conversation on our recent cruise often included discussion on how uninspired the food was and how the food budgets seem to have been cut again. The other three people at the table hadn't been on a cruise in over a year, and were disappointed with the overall food quality. Most of the items were ho-hum, with only a few items receiving "oooooh that's good". Several items were deemed absolutely vile.

 

In February we attempted to go to an introduction to Spanish class on the Zaandam, and the room was over-full. So insufficient space in classes and presentations isn't just a problem with the larger ships.

[LindaM]

I find myself in agreement with OP. This is the trend with ALL cruise lines, even the the high priced ones.

 

I just glad that HAL hasn't started the fuel sur-charge, as they say, they reserve the right to do. Cruise prices have risen, but not as much as all the costs to run a cruise.

 

Just think. AIRLINES!

 

Hope this thread doesn't turn ugly. :)

 

I agree with you, too. We had 3 formal nights on a 2 week Baltic---not that I'm complaining!! Unless it was served on the night we were in the Pinnacle, I never saw lobster tails or escargot.

 

The problem is, HAL would have to raise prices to make things like what they were. So, they are caught between a rock and a hard place. It's not just HAL---Celebrity had some pretty uninspired menues, too. Have a feeling this is going to be the new normal for cruising, except for the luxury lines.

[SwissMyst]

Probably the unintended effect of not honoring former dress guidelines. Passengers who don't care get the care and service they earn from the staff who do. (Duck!:eek:)

[geocruiser]

How low can they charge and still maintain the quality product we all seek?

If people are not willing to pay, what can they expect to get? It's all dollars and cents. When a great many are squeezing to get the last $5 off the fare, HAL will have to squeeze and take caviar off the menus...... (for example).

 

When people are willing to pay a decent fare, we can expect to be offered more upscale items.

I sometimes think the menus are becoming more 'pedestrian' but that's, for the most part, okay with me. I find I eat more simply these days so I'm not looking for the heavy, intricate cuisine on which we used to dine but I know it isn't alright with everyone.

 

 

 

JMO.......

 

Could it also be too many ships and cabins to fill? Keep price low to fill them up.

[sail7seas]

Could it also be too many ships and cabins to fill? Keep price low to fill them up.

 

 

That surely is a factor..... an important one.

[terrydtx]

I think that with so many new large ships the competition to fill all the new cabins has caused prices and bottom lines among all cruise lines to suffer. The specialty restaurants have had a huge influence upon the quality and variety of food now served in the MDR. Things like rack of lamb, Oso Bucco and flambe steaks (Steak Dianne) that use to be found in the MDR menus are now only in the up charge specialty restaurants. I am surprised that we still see prime rib on the MDR menu instead of roast beef unless the prime rib is already gone. Haven't been on a HAL cruise in 2 years. My TA told me that the budgets given to the kitchen managers for per passenger food costs per day hasn't changed in 5 years on HAL, while food costs to the line have risen 30% or more, so the chefs are forced to do what they can to make us happy with a lot less. However this issue is the same for all mass market cruise companies and I am sure that Carnival is going down (if possible) in their food quality too. MY parents who love NCL took a NCL cruise last year on on of their new mega liners with I think 7 restaurants and they commented that the MDR food was awful and they had to pay for the up charge ones to get a decent meal, so go figure.

 

One last thing I bet the current world wide ecconomics problems have had a large impact on cruise pricing too.

[ANSalberg]

We just returned from a 35 day Hawaii/Tahiti cruise on the Westerdam. Although we enjoyed ourselves, there were many troubling signs of cost cutting and crowding that give the impression the HAL is moving downscale in the cruise marketplace. We've done many cruises with HAL and love the service and ships. But there seem to be too many passengers competing for space in the activities, theater, etc. The menu is heavier on standard entrees with fewer high-end choices (it was over 3 weeks before we saw a lobster tail). Gym classes, computer classes, dance classes and shows in the evening were quite full---often to the point of not being turned away due to lack of space. Our travel documents listed 10 formal nights, but there were only 7 in 5 weeks.

There were many other things I could list where it was apparent that HAL is cutting back.

 

Is this a conscious decision by HAL to move out of the premium segment and become a more mainstream cruise line? Some of their cruise prices are quite attractive (low) and I wonder if they are on a cost cutting program to make it work. Have you also noticed a decline in some of these areas?

 

My immediate thought in your discription is that you are talking about two different things -Downscale is limiting what is included and/or charging for it - activities being full may simply be the appeal of the activity; nothing more!

Then I read your entry again. There is a distinct difference between 7 day or even 10 day cruises -and what you are talking about. The shorter cruises are usually closer to home/VERY port-intensive. SO on shorter cruises passengers often don't participate in organized activities like classes/workshops.

We take" grand" cruises which are longer in length AND have many more "at Sea" days and what you have discribed is a longer cruise ALMOST by definition; MORE shipboard activities fill at-sea days AND you are going to exotic places so often speakers/workshops will prepare you for the cultural differences. MOST of the cruisers on the longer cruises are experienced cruisers so they USE their time effectively as well.

NONE of that are financial cutbacks.

There is nothing "wrong" about your question -certainly in times like this, but I think what you are talking about is SIMPLY the difference in the TYPE of cruising.

To address the crowding; "At Sea" days will SEEM much more crowded but the same number is the same number who boarded on day one!

To address menu -longer cruises need staples and stable food because ports for loading ON are relatively infrequent. on our "Grand" cruises one of the things we LOVE to do is watch the loading taking place! And Lobster even at home is VERY expensive so served ONCE on a 7 day cruise would theoretically be the same as once or twice on a three week cruise.

Possible reasoning on scaling back on THAT could be to NOT have to put UP the price!

We really love the longer cruise and what it offers BUT to compare it with a 7 day is almost impossible; the experience is VERY different [ in a GOOD way!] ;)

Anne

[sail7seas]

DH is not retired so we take the seven, ten and fourteen days cruises and are comparing them to those we took last year, and the year before that and the year before that etc

 

DH and I are comparing exactly what we paid for the same cabin, on the same ship on the same itinerary last year and the year before and the year before that to what we pay today and the cruise we experience.

 

It doesn't get more apple to apples than that.

 

Same cabin, same ship, same itinerary...... compare the per diem; compare what is offered.

For the most part, given the economy, given how most people are being careful to get the best possible price, given all the cabins HAL has to fill on 15 ships each week, we think they are doing a wonderful job and it is our full intention to continue to book more cruises with HAL. :)

[WNcruiser]

From someone who is gladly coming back to HAL, I think if you took another "mass market" cruise line you would see HAL is still far ahead of the rest.

 

You haven't seen cost cutting until you take Carnival or RCI. How about sitting down to breakfast in the MDR and when they ask if you want an OJ and you say yes, they ask for your sea pass card. Yes, this just happened to me this month on RCI. How about flavored waters in the windjammer (buffet) instead of juice? Absolutely true.

 

I would rather HAL keep the prices a little higher and keep their level of food/service but I know that's not the best decision for the company.

 

The grass is definately not greener on the other side....

 

Steve

[bepsf]

Could it also be too many ships and cabins to fill?

 

Exactly.

The industry has overbuilt - and we're paying the price.

[sail7seas]

And there are more ships coming out this year and next........

 

though there has been no announcement of any new HAL ships.... yet.

[SmokinActuary]

I am curious how HAL has changed since I last sailed in 2007.

[Crazy Gramps]

In 4 years I watched as HAL sunk in service and standards faster than the Titanic sank.

I always cruised in suites. One day it suddenly wasn't worth the money.

 

HAL has never asked "hey where have you been?"

 

I flat quit cruising except for river cruises.

 

Gramps

[terrydtx]

And there are more ships coming out this year and next........

 

though there has been no announcement of any new HAL ships.... yet.

 

No new HAL ships on the horizon but they still have to compete with all other new ships from other lines. However go look at what it costs for RCL Allure of the seas for a 7 day Caribbean cruise from FLL this winter. Their Veranda cabins are going for30- 40% more than similar cabin on the Eurodam and the Nieuw Amsterdam. Our friends going on our cruise next month with us first had been looking at the Allure before they found out we had booked our HAL cruise. They got a SY cabin on the NA for less than the standard Balcony they were looking at on the Allure and couldn't believe the bargain. First time on HAL and they have always thought HAL was out of their budgets for cruising. Says something for HAL marketing.:confused: